Identified! NY - Manhattan, 'Midtown Jane Doe', WhtFem 16-21, 337UFNY, under concrete, ring w/ 'P McG', Feb'03 Patricia McGlone

[LucyOso]

I have a few questions...

Was it ever determined what fresh cement meant. Obviously it wasn't the age of the building foundation, but how recent was it?

Is there a possibility this "coffin" was made for some other purpose, at some other time, then utilised opportunistically? Could this have been premeditated and over time created?

With the ring, given the size it could either be a gift given to a young girl or an heirloom. Most woman several generations ago were pretty tiny. The initials, if it was older would be first initial-last name-middle initial/maiden name. This could be a random thing in her life, meaning something someone picked up, a gift, etc.

With carpet, and cords to tie her up, it happened in a home setting most likely. Those are materials around a house, not necessarily just picking someone up on a street corner. Why tie her up? Pre or post-mortem?

Scraps of glittery clothing could indicate a new years eve party, Halloween, a dress-up event. An event or play at a theatre? Do we have pictures?

The thing that strikes me the most is this: A lot of effort went into making certain she was not found. A lot. We talk about prostitutes and drug addicts, but, most were discarded or dumped without much thought and sadly there was apathy to murders or missing women/men due to lifestyle. Sure, maybe in the woods or some place where they would not be found right away, but the effort taken to conceal her says something to me. Is this a situation where without a body a crime could not be proved? A husband wanted for murder after a wife disappears? A drug informant? Someone close enough to the victim that a lot of effort was needed to assure she would not be found. They could have even been under the impression that the building would be demolished in a way that it would be unlikely she was found. I think there was a pretty strong connection between the perp and victim.

Why did she need to be hidden so well?

 

[madamx]

I have a few questions...

Was it ever determined what fresh cement meant. Obviously it wasn't the age of the building foundation, but how recent was it?

Is there a possibility this "coffin" was made for some other purpose, at some other time, then utilised opportunistically? Could this have been premeditated and over time created?

With the ring, given the size it could either be a gift given to a young girl or an heirloom. Most woman several generations ago were pretty tiny. The initials, if it was older would be first initial-last name-middle initial/maiden name. This could be a random thing in her life, meaning something someone picked up, a gift, etc.

With carpet, and cords to tie her up, it happened in a home setting most likely. Those are materials around a house, not necessarily just picking someone up on a street corner. Why tie her up? Pre or post-mortem?

Scraps of glittery clothing could indicate a new years eve party, Halloween, a dress-up event. An event or play at a theatre? Do we have pictures?

The thing that strikes me the most is this: A lot of effort went into making certain she was not found. A lot. We talk about prostitutes and drug addicts, but, most were discarded or dumped without much thought and sadly there was apathy to murders or missing women/men due to lifestyle. Sure, maybe in the woods or some place where they would not be found right away, but the effort taken to conceal her says something to me. Is this a situation where without a body a crime could not be proved? A husband wanted for murder after a wife disappears? A drug informant? Someone close enough to the victim that a lot of effort was needed to assure she would not be found. They could have even been under the impression that the building would be demolished in a way that it would be unlikely she was found. I think there was a pretty strong connection between the perp and victim.

Why did she need to be hidden so well?

You have really good questions and points LucyOso!! I have asked the same question.. How recent is recent on the cement.. I have not really seen any info anywhere on that.. I know that would help a lot and give a better timeframe .

As I was reading what you had written about the ring.. I actually began to think about something.. I have lived in NYC all my life and I cant tell you how many times I have found bracelets, earrings (always only 1) and rings on the subway especially in the winter when people are bundled, wear gloves and rings tend to slip off easily.. So with that in mind it made me think.. She was in Hells Kitchen, it was always known to be a big Irish neighborhood.. She could of just found that ring and was wearing it because she liked it and like you mentioned had absolutely nothing to do with her initials..

I agree with you regarding carpet and it was a home setting.. which has made me think if she was squatting in one of the empty apartments in the building itself and was killed there..By either the super or a construction worker when they were bricking up all the vacant apartment windows.

I have been trying to find out for the longest as to when they started bricking up the windows in the building.. There would of been many bags of concrete on the premises when this work was going on.. this would of been the opportune time to bury someone in it and not get noticed.. The only thing that I have found is from someone that lived there in 1988 (She has posted on this thread) the windows and apartments were already bricked up, so to me the crime had to have been committed before 1988. That is just my theory..... If we could find photos of the building or nyc dob records as to when the concrete work was being done on the windows I believe it would help us much more with the time frame.

I agree on that the person did not want her found at all and never wanted to get caught. You mention woods.. its hard in the city.. to dispose of a body especially if you don't have a car, which many people did not at that time .. The usual ways would be in a shopping cart, in a suitcase, in the east river, rolled up in a rug and thrown with trash or cut up and dumped in dumpsters in garbage bags.. So I can totally see them hiding her in the basement.. The person that did it had knowledge on how to make the cement into a coffin and time to make it without looking suspicious...This is why I believe it was the super or a construction worker... I wish there were photos of what it looked like.

I also wish there was a photo of the bra she had.. because with the bra I believe by the style we could also possibly narrow down a timeframe

 

[madamx]

http://vanishingnewyork.blogspot.com/2015/02/hustling-1975.html this is a movie Hustling that gives more of an insight of the time what it looked like and the people.. there actually is a still on the link which has a photo of Mchale's the bar across the street on the same block

http://nymag.com/listings/bar/collins_bar/ this was a bar that took the place of Lady Annes Full Moon Saloon which was a storefront in the building
http://vanishingnewyork.blogspot.com/2013/05/301-west-46th.html
Of Lady Anne's, Anthony Bourdain wrote: "where the smell of Lysol and vomit distracted one from the recently released convict population playing pool on the warped table in the rear."....
I actually thought maybe they could of been smelling the girls corps in the building and they are thinking its the bar smelling bad.. It would be interesting to know the year of the smell.


http://lostnewyorkcity.blogspot.com/2009/03/lost-citys-guide-to-hells-kitchen.html more about the neighborhood and someone named Bobbee posted on the thread growing up there from 1962 to 1971..he gave a lot of info.. I wonder if this person could have any memories of the building from that time.


https://johnnypierre.com/blog/blog/rock-roll-geography-steve-paul-s-the-scene-nyc this is the Scene the club that was in the basement.. just some info and photos

 

[BigCityAccountant]

What about Julie May Hill from MN?

https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/12215/14

What is interesting about Julie's case, is the suspect confessed but they were unable to locate Julie. He also confessed to wrapping Julie in a carpet. Can anyone find any ties to NY?

Here is more info on the suspect.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/ica...in-1980-duluth-st-louis-county-minn-t510.html

 

[madamx]

Originally Posted by jessr927
Thanks, Cubby

I just found this link: http://missing-and-unidentified.org/...doe/study.html which has some interesting info such as, the label of her clothing was misidentified and the

That link was great and included in-depth details about the case. The information seem reliable but how can we confirm that?

If it is, then the date of death would be late 60s, early 70s which changes pretty much everything in term of looking for missing persons!

Such an involved disposal with concrete means there was a story behind this, much more than a prostitute IMO.

It's aa very interesting case

oh I wish the linked worked and we could read this article.. seems like it was good.. I don't know if anyone read it or remembers it.

 

[madamx]

Hello everyone and I am new here, and I also live in New York and this case has always insterest me, why it is like a puzzle with so many pieces but none will fit. But I always wonder about that garment tag found with the body, did they ever found out the type of clothing it was attracted to ? Or did ever figured out what the scraps of glitterly clothing were? Could it have been a blouse, skirt, dress, sweater ? Did the buttons found with the body belong with the tag?

good questions here and wonder if they ever took photos of the material and the buttons

 

[madamx]

I can't get that link to work so I'm just going to take what you said as fact.

With that in mind I've found a large group of women that this could possibly be.


Rosemary Hamilton Buck
Went missing from Syracuse, New York in 1973.
In range: Age and Height and Hair colour




Sheryl Ann Tillinghast
Went Missing from Wassaic, New York in 1973
In range: Age and Height

Charlotte Jean Loomis
Went missing from Eatontown, New Jersey in 1972
In range: Age and Height and hair colour




Sandra Lee Hopler
Went missing from La Plume, Pennsylvania in 1973
In range: Age and Hair colour. Height is three inches off at 5'4, while not unheard of, I usually consider it out of range after three inches




Cathy Marie Moulton
Went missing from Portland, Maine in 1971
In range: Age and hair colour. 5'4




Lynne Katherine Schultz
Missing from Middlebury, Vermont in 1971
In range: Age and height




Rose Lena Cole
Missing from Oakland, California (But is a known hitchhiker/runaway) since 1972-1973
In Range: Age and possibly height




Corinne June Groenenberg
Missing from Modesto, California (Last seen hitchhiking) in 1973
In range: Age, She's 5'6, making her a bit too tall.




Deborah Lee Tomlinson
Missing from Creswell, Oregon in 1973
In range: Age. She's 5'5




Those are all my cases from the 70s that I liked. I looked into late 60s and found a couple but decided not to put them up. I'll come back after school to make a list for the 80s and 90s

A while back EmmailLucia posted all these girls.. I actually had come across Charolette Loomis last night and checked but she was already on here.. I wanted to post her again.. because although she went missing from NJ she was originally from Detroit MI..and since the isotopes mentioned Midwest I wanted to bring her up. They believed she ran away. She has a thread on websleuths http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?160091-Charlotte-Jean-Loomis-(14)-Eatontown-NJ-1972

http://www.missingkids.com/poster/NCMC/972345

Missing Since
Sep 1, 1972
Missing From
Eatontown, NJ
DOB
Mar 24, 1958
Age Now
59
Sex
Female
Race
White
Hair Color
Blonde
Eye Color
Blue
Height
5'2"
Weight
115 lbs
Age Progressed

Charlotte's photo is shown age-progressed to 54 years. She was believed to be traveling from Newark International Airport in Newark, New Jersey, to Midland Bay City Saginaw International Airport in Saginaw, Michigan, but she never arrived. Charlotte has a scar on her forehead.

 

[LucyOso]

You have really good questions and points LucyOso!! I have asked the same question.. How recent is recent on the cement.. I have not really seen any info anywhere on that.. I know that would help a lot and give a better timeframe .

I have been trying to find out for the longest as to when they started bricking up the windows in the building.. There would of been many bags of concrete on the premises when this work was going on.. this would of been the opportune time to bury someone in it and not get noticed.. The only thing that I have found is from someone that lived there in 1988 (She has posted on this thread) the windows and apartments were already bricked up, so to me the crime had to have been committed before 1988. That is just my theory..... If we could find photos of the building or nyc dob records as to when the concrete work was being done on the windows I believe it would help us much more with the time frame.

I agree on that the person did not want her found at all and never wanted to get caught. You mention woods.. its hard in the city.. to dispose of a body especially if you don't have a car, which many people did not at that time .. The usual ways would be in a shopping cart, in a suitcase, in the east river, rolled up in a rug and thrown with trash or cut up and dumped in dumpsters in garbage bags.. So I can totally see them hiding her in the basement.. The person that did it had knowledge on how to make the cement into a coffin and time to make it without looking suspicious...This is why I believe it was the super or a construction worker... I wish there were photos of what it looked like.

I also wish there was a photo of the bra she had.. because with the bra I believe by the style we could also possibly narrow down a timeframe

Respectfully snipped and BBM.

I am also very curious about when they started bricking up the place. Is there any chance she was a "rent-controlled" tenant who was obstructing further development? As bad as that sounds, if someone was trying to unload a building so it didn't have to be maintained, tear it down, sell it, etc. and there was one person holding out, she could disappear. It sounds like the other tenants were more casually renting and there were very few left.

I agree, burying in the woods is far-fetched with no car. With no car, how would they lug so much concrete? Why this whole elaborate coffin? The river or a dumpster would seem the likely place if she was the "type" of person society and police disregarded due to lifestyle at the time. That upsets me to say that, but, someone wanted her not to be found. I also look at that in terms of closeness. Like, almost a proper burial in a way. Entombed. Its a lot of work for a "thrill" kill. I think there is meaning and personalisation behind the situation. It's definitely not random. I just wonder if the concert was completed in stages. If part of it was poured for something else, then it was used in opportunity.

I agree about the bra. It could really help pinpoint a time period.

Thoughts?

 

[301w46]

In 1988 all the apartments on the 5th floor were bricked up except for 5A. I never thought of the cement as being in the building but that makes sense. I still believe it was the non english speaking superintendent who did this. I dont not know when they started bricking up the building , i believe someone on this thread or another webpage said he lived there too?? He may know the answers and maybe have pictures of the building. It would make sense the super killed a prostitute as there were working 8th avenue. Or maybe it was a tenant

 

[carbuff]

I've read news stories where a pimp or prostitute would pay a building superintendent to allow them to use the empty apartments or the basement for their professional activities.

 

[jessr927]

Great questions, Lucy. I wish I had more answers.

I believe fresh cement meant fresher than the rest of the building but they never said how recent it was.

I believe the cement coffin was built specifically for her concealment. IIRC it was behind an old boiler/water heater. There would be no logical reason to build a new, body sized and shaped coffin like device behind a boiler. I do not believe it would serve any purpose but to hide her.

I believe she was tied pre-mortem. This was the cause of her death. Tying the rope around her neck and then using the slack rest of it to tie her limbs together to stop them from dangling during transport. If you're moving a rolled up rug, you probably don't want an arm to flop out.

The scraps of clothing were not pictured, but that was also indicative of disco style, which fits the time frame. It may have been for a party or holiday as you said, or maybe just a Saturday night out at a club.

The bra was also not shown, but a 32A is a small woman, narrow back and small breasted.

I personally believe if she was a prostitute, this had more to do with a pimp situation as opposed to a random nut like Rifkin or Shulman who were johns who just picked up prostitutes and killed them.

She owed her pimp money maybe? Tried to go out on her own, or with another pimp? Was involved with LE in some way, as an informant? Had loose ties to the mob? (One of the women who was kept around to service them - Irish mob ran Hell's Kitchen and the McG on the ring indicates an Irish surname for someone involved, even if not her - a grandparent maybe) Political info she might have overheard, if she was kept around for sex with local politicians?

There were SO many ties between this case and Judy O'Donnell. I was literally dumbstruck when it was determined this was not Judy.

I have a few questions...

Was it ever determined what fresh cement meant. Obviously it wasn't the age of the building foundation, but how recent was it?

Is there a possibility this "coffin" was made for some other purpose, at some other time, then utilised opportunistically? Could this have been premeditated and over time created?

With the ring, given the size it could either be a gift given to a young girl or an heirloom. Most woman several generations ago were pretty tiny. The initials, if it was older would be first initial-last name-middle initial/maiden name. This could be a random thing in her life, meaning something someone picked up, a gift, etc.

With carpet, and cords to tie her up, it happened in a home setting most likely. Those are materials around a house, not necessarily just picking someone up on a street corner. Why tie her up? Pre or post-mortem?

Scraps of glittery clothing could indicate a new years eve party, Halloween, a dress-up event. An event or play at a theatre? Do we have pictures?

The thing that strikes me the most is this: A lot of effort went into making certain she was not found. A lot. We talk about prostitutes and drug addicts, but, most were discarded or dumped without much thought and sadly there was apathy to murders or missing women/men due to lifestyle. Sure, maybe in the woods or some place where they would not be found right away, but the effort taken to conceal her says something to me. Is this a situation where without a body a crime could not be proved? A husband wanted for murder after a wife disappears? A drug informant? Someone close enough to the victim that a lot of effort was needed to assure she would not be found. They could have even been under the impression that the building would be demolished in a way that it would be unlikely she was found. I think there was a pretty strong connection between the perp and victim.

Why did she need to be hidden so well?

 

[LucyOso]

Great questions, Lucy. I wish I had more answers.

I believe fresh cement meant fresher than the rest of the building but they never said how recent it was.

I believe the cement coffin was built specifically for her concealment. IIRC it was behind an old boiler/water heater. There would be no logical reason to build a new, body sized and shaped coffin like device behind a boiler. I do not believe it would serve any purpose but to hide her.

I believe she was tied pre-mortem. This was the cause of her death. Tying the rope around her neck and then using the slack rest of it to tie her limbs together to stop them from dangling during transport. If you're moving a rolled up rug, you probably don't want an arm to flop out.

The scraps of clothing were not pictured, but that was also indicative of disco style, which fits the time frame. It may have been for a party or holiday as you said, or maybe just a Saturday night out at a club.

The bra was also not shown, but a 32A is a small woman, narrow back and small breasted.

I personally believe if she was a prostitute, this had more to do with a pimp situation as opposed to a random nut like Rifkin or Shulman who were johns who just picked up prostitutes and killed them.

She owed her pimp money maybe? Tried to go out on her own, or with another pimp? Was involved with LE in some way, as an informant? Had loose ties to the mob? (One of the women who was kept around to service them - Irish mob ran Hell's Kitchen and the McG on the ring indicates an Irish surname for someone involved, even if not her - a grandparent maybe) Political info she might have overheard, if she was kept around for sex with local politicians?

There were SO many ties between this case and Judy O'Donnell. I was literally dumbstruck when it was determined this was not Judy.

Thank you. I agree with what you are saying. Knowing the attitudes towards sex workers or addicts during that time with LE and society, it just strikes me that so much effort went into concealing her. That’s what is sticking with me. Concealing her was very important. It was thought out and planned. She needed to disappear. I’d think a pimp or a drug debt would be dealt with so she was made an example of. This seems more intimate. Spousal or something.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

What do you all think about Melinda Creech, missing from Indiana in 1979. The mother had dementia and the siblings were told that remains in NJ were those of their sister, which they thought was strange because the didn't have a funeral for her. Once the mother passed, they found a letter stating the remains were NOT their sister.

I'd have to look back but didn't this UID have extensive dental work? If you look in the first picture I posted of Melinda closely you can see the old silver type fillings.

https://whereaboutsstillunknown.wordpress.com/2013/03/11/melinda-creech/

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/c/creech_melinda.html

 

[madamx]

What do you all think about Melinda Creech, missing from Indiana in 1979. The mother had dementia and the siblings were told that remains in NJ were those of their sister, which they thought was strange because the didn't have a funeral for her. Once the mother passed, they found a letter stating the remains were NOT their sister.

I'd have to look back but didn't this UID have extensive dental work? If you look in the first picture I posted of Melinda closely you can see the old silver type fillings.

https://whereaboutsstillunknown.wordpress.com/2013/03/11/melinda-creech/

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/c/creech_melinda.html

wow bigcityaccountant looks very close to the reconstruction... Great find! iam posting a photo of the UID teeth to compare to the photo of Melinda looks to me like the tooth next to her left front tooth match up being shorter and the left front one also looks the same as being slightly lower than the right one

 

[madamx]

http://www.nampn.org/cases/tharp_nancy.html

http://www.missingin.org/reg6638/nancy_kay_tharp.htm

I found this girl she was a little older but was missing from Minnesota

Missing Since: August 20, 1977 from Brooklyn Park, Hennepin County, Minnesota
Classification: Missing
Age: 23
Height: 5'6"
Weight: 125 lbs.
Hair Color: Blond
Eye Color: Blue
Race: White
Gender: Female
Case Number: 77010640


Details of Disappearance
Nancy Tharp was last seen in Brooklyn Park on August 20, 1977.

 

[madamx]

ok I came across this and wanted to post it here because it just reminded me of the Midtown Jane Doe... I had never heard of this case nor can I find any other information on this case not even anything written anywhere.. I would think this was reported somewhere.. Anyway just wanted to post it here.. Maybe its the same super??

https://lostandfound.revealnews.org...&end_date=12/31/2017&unidentifiedperson=15099

Date found
July 24, 1989
Age
18 to 25 years old
Sex
Female
Race
Unsure
Ethnicity
Unsure
Circumstances
Skeletal remains were found by demolition crew inside a boiler that was being removed from its foundation. Remains are highly fragmentary and show signs of dismemberment. Anthropological analysis suggests the remains are likely to be female. Ancestry could not be determined.

Location Found

Address 1
143 West 142nd Street
Address 2
Btwn Lenox and 7th Avenue
City
New York
County
New York
State
New York

Body condition
Not recognizable - Partial skeletal parts only
Post-mortem interval
Not specified
Estimated age
Adult - Pre 20
Weight
null lbs
Height
null inches

https://identifyus.org/en/cases/15099

 

[Deleted member 165632]

ok I came across this and wanted to post it here because it just reminded me of the Midtown Jane Doe... I had never heard of this case nor can I find any other information on this case not even anything written anywhere.. I would think this was reported somewhere.. Anyway just wanted to post it here.. Maybe its the same super??

https://lostandfound.revealnews.org...&end_date=12/31/2017&unidentifiedperson=15099

Date found
July 24, 1989
Age
18 to 25 years old
Sex
Female
Race
Unsure
Ethnicity
Unsure
Circumstances
Skeletal remains were found by demolition crew inside a boiler that was being removed from its foundation. Remains are highly fragmentary and show signs of dismemberment. Anthropological analysis suggests the remains are likely to be female. Ancestry could not be determined.

Location Found

Address 1
143 West 142nd Street
Address 2
Btwn Lenox and 7th Avenue
City
New York
County
New York
State
New York

Body condition
Not recognizable - Partial skeletal parts only
Post-mortem interval
Not specified
Estimated age
Adult - Pre 20
Weight
null lbs
Height
null inches

https://identifyus.org/en/cases/15099

Hi Madamx,

I think that this case is an interesting find, and I can certainly see what would remind you of Midtown Jane Doe, but given that both cases are NYC ones... well it gives me pause.

The area where this Jane Doe was found on 143 W 142nd Street is East Harlem. East Harlem is a place that has a high poverty rate, and in the 70s & 80s it would have been worse- especially w/ the crack epidemic. The area has a lot of public housing. You have high concentration of people, some of whom may have been very transient back in the 80s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Harlem

Photos of the area from 1980s, gives you a feel for the place:
https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/gallery/2017/sep/09/spanish-harlem-in-the-1980s-in-pictures

Also, for those not familiar, East Harlem is also home to Spanish Harlem and a lot of people of Puerto Rican descent, plus other Latino communities.


Given how big NYC is and how dangerous it used to be 70s, 80s, even much of 90s, these cases may not be related. It's sad that there's so little info on West 142nd Street Jane Doe.

 

[houndpounder]

ok I came across this and wanted to post it here because it just reminded me of the Midtown Jane Doe... I had never heard of this case nor can I find any other information on this case not even anything written anywhere.. I would think this was reported somewhere.. Anyway just wanted to post it here.. Maybe its the same super??

https://lostandfound.revealnews.org...&end_date=12/31/2017&unidentifiedperson=15099

Date found
July 24, 1989
Age
18 to 25 years old
Sex
Female
Race
Unsure
Ethnicity
Unsure
Circumstances
Skeletal remains were found by demolition crew inside a boiler that was being removed from its foundation. Remains are highly fragmentary and show signs of dismemberment. Anthropological analysis suggests the remains are likely to be female. Ancestry could not be determined.

Location Found

Address 1
143 West 142nd Street
Address 2
Btwn Lenox and 7th Avenue
City
New York
County
New York
State
New York

Body condition
Not recognizable - Partial skeletal parts only
Post-mortem interval
Not specified
Estimated age
Adult - Pre 20
Weight
null lbs
Height
null inches

https://identifyus.org/en/cases/15099

Great Find Madame X, actually the cases could very well be related if it was a construction worker or contractor. He could have killed these girls and buried them on the properties where he worked.

 

[madamx]

Great Find Madame X, actually the cases could very well be related if it was a construction worker or contractor. He could have killed these girls and buried them on the properties where he worked.

yes this was my thought also.

 

[WesternArtist]

I agree about a construction worker or possibly more specifically an HVAC tech, ironworker/boilermaker etc. The concrete that Midtown Jane Doe was found under was behind or next to (depending on which article) a coal furnace https://nypost.com/2003/12/21/stump...old-clues-in-probe-of-gruesome-jane-doe-slay/ and this Doe found in Harlem was inside a boiler.