NY NY - NY, 201 W 24th St, WhtMale 20-40, UP6896, box on sdwlk, Tatts: Libra, Oct 3, butterfly, Feb'96

[madamx]

I'm not completely convinced that this is a jail tattoo. For some reason, it appears to me, much more like a young female practicing her tattooing skills on a boyfriend and not much thought to the subject of the tattoo itself. Libra scales with birthdate, "F You" and a "moth" or butterfly. Of course...JMO.

Going on my "moth" nickname for Timothy theory, I looked for a Timothy in Namus that met the criteria for this John Doe and found one.
https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/12982/2/
Timothy Winter, 19 yrs. old
Missing since May 21,1988
Mankato, MN
5' 11" (UID 6')
180 lbs, (UID 145 lbs.)
Brown Hair (UID Light Brown)
Age in 1996 - 27 years old (UID 20-40)
No photo provided.

Very little information, other than DNA samples are being collected in Minnesota's push to solve missing and unidentified persons cases.

Looked to find a birthdate for Timothy Winter, but came up empty, and I'm not a member of any geneaology websites.

Good find coffeeandacig if we go with the Timothy (Moth) tattoo idea. The stats seem in the range. I wish we knew his birthday to be able to rule him out or not.

 

[madamx]

Is it possible he way gay? Another clue into his identity. The butterfly and script of the FU tattoo are very feminine and whimsical. Also he was into astrology. Are we looking at an gay/feminine male who was a bit sassy and also was into spiritualist (astrology) beliefs?

You know Daisy Chains I think you are on to something..When I read what you wrote it got my wheels turning and I started thinking back on that area of the city back in the 1990s and now that you mention gay.. I think he could of been..

I worked down by West 26ths st for a while and also on west 17th and on west 15th was my Dr since 1992. That all area is considered West Chelsea and had a big gay community. And it Never dawned on me until I read DaisyChains post omg! I was too focused on the guys tattoos and Birthday.. this is a perfect example why its great to have a bunch of us working on these threads!!

Fashion Institute of Technology (FIT) is a block away from where this guy was found. I also remember going with a friend of mine to some LGBT medical clinic/community center place in that area.. for the life of me I don't remember the place.. I looked online and found the Audre Lorde Project (I think this was the place but not 100% sure) But located on West 24th street not far from where the guy was found. Now I don't know if it was around when the guy died.. But the area did cater to a lot of the LGBT community.. thanks Daisychains for that one ha!..

 

[Baudelaire]

If the butterfly is a butterfly not a moth could it be a signal tattoo that some male prostitutes sometimes wear to advertise that they are available?

Just a thought.

 

[madamx]

I checked him yesterday. Our guy was a homeless guy. Ribeiro doesn't homeless if he still had a car.

Baudelaire I wanted to know where you found that the UID was a homeless guy.. I have not seen that info anywhere, I also have not seen info on any of his clothing if anything was left. I have looked.. I have not even found any news articles of this being reported..its so sad.

 

[madamx]

If the butterfly is a butterfly not a moth could it be a signal tattoo that some male prostitutes sometimes where to advertise that they are available?

Just a thought.

oh that is really interesting thought!!.. I also found a couple of missing men with butterfly tattoos on their shoulders but the also have other tattoos that don't match this guys tattoos

 

[Baudelaire]

oh that is really interesting thought!!.. I also found a couple of missing men with butterfly tattoos on their shoulders but the also have other tattoos that don't match this guys tattoos

So the butterfly could mean something, its a long shot. I'm waiting for replies to my emails. So there is very little to do but wait.

 

[Baudelaire]

Baudelaire I wanted to know where you found that the UID was a homeless guy.. I have not seen that info anywhere, I also have not seen info on any of his clothing if anything was left. I have looked.. I have not even found any news articles of this being reported..its so sad.

I assumed he was homeless. He was found in a burning box. There is no mention of any jewelry. Or any other personal effects.

If he was robbed of his jewelry and then killed, surely someone at home or at work would notice that he was missing?

If he had a job and didn't pitch surely his employer would contact his family, his nearest kin whose number employers usually have. Even if he lived alone, surely someone would have reported him missing if he failed to pay his rent?

If someone has a place to stay, has a job, has a boyfriend or spouse, they would know about the tattoos and they would be included in any missing person's report as identifing characteristics. And by crosschecking we haven't had a single hit.

Tell me if I was wrong to assume this, but after getting no match. I thought he must have been homeless and tragically the homeless go through the police system a lot for petty offenses.

My thinking was that if nobody reported him maybe we could find him in the police system.

It's a terrible thing to say but many homeless people drink or on drugs and he could have started that fire himself.

He was badly burned by the time someone got there to put the fire out, but they found enough unburnt skin to get three tattoos. It would appear then that he was not isolated and other people were close by. And the homeless tend to band together in groups for safety.

It's a long shot, maybe too long but there could perhaps be other homeless people still around who knew him. The problem is finding them.

Sorry if I'm way off the mark here but that's the conclusion I drew.

 

[madamx]

I assumed he was homeless. He was found in a burning box. There is no mention of any jewelry. Or any other personal effects.

If he was robbed of his jewelry and then killed, surely someone at home or at work would notice that he was missing?

If he had a job and didn't pitch surely his employer would contact his family, his nearest kin whose number employers usually have. Even if he lived alone, surely someone would have reported him missing if he failed to pay his rent?

If someone has a place to stay, has a job, has a boyfriend or spouse, they would know about the tattoos and they would be included in any missing person's report as identifing characteristics. And by crosschecking we haven't had a single hit.

Tell me if I was wrong to assume this, but after getting no match. I thought he must have been homeless and tragically the homeless go through the police system a lot for petty offenses.

My thinking was that if nobody reported him maybe we could find him in the police system.

It's a terrible thing to say but many homeless people drink or on drugs and he could have started that fire himself.

He was badly burned by the time someone got there to put the fire out, but they found enough unburnt skin to get three tattoos. It would appear then that he was not isolated and other people were close by. And the homeless tend to band together in groups for safety.

It's a long shot, maybe too long but there could perhaps be other homeless people still around who knew him. The problem is finding them.

Sorry if I'm way off the mark here but that's the conclusion I drew.

Ah ok yes, I see your point and conclusion. I thought you had read it somewhere. I had happend to have a different scenario going through my head!
What I had been thinking, he was dumped on the side of the street there in a box with no clothing. Possibly unconscious or dead already and then set on fire by someone.
The no clothing thing had got me too...There is no mention of any clothing at all, which I found odd too since it was Feb 1996 and we had just experienced the biggest blizzard in 20 years in January.. so I do believe it was still cold on Feb 12. As you said he was burned but not enough that tattoos were able to be seen in different locations on his body..But yet again no mention of any clothes or shoes or jewelry or bags or anything...

The address they found him was in front of a residential building . I just could not see some homeless guy living in a box right in front of the building.. they usually set up in lots, parks, under overpasses. on corners, behind buildings..

Which made me think he could of been reported missing years prior (before he got tattooed) or just not have been reported missing at all.. then it gets even more complicated.

And while typing all this now I just had another thought on your homeless theory.. Someone could of thrown out a refrigerator box and he could of taken shelter in it and set himself on fire while smoking drugs... I looked on line after that thought and found this happen in Brooklyn http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4181642/Man-filmed-walking-fire-smoking-crack.html which makes me think yes your theory could
be right....

I agree with you finding him in the police system is prob our best bet.

 

[carbuff]

All that is possibly true. But there are so many reasons why somebody isn't reported missing. The people who might notice him missing might not be in a position to file the report--many LE agencies won't take a report from a job situation, and a landlord is just going to think he skipped out on the rent. And there's always the possibility that the person in a position to notice he was missing is the person who is responsible for his disappearance.

But that said, I think you're probably right that he was homeless. Drink and drugs wouldn't even have to be involved--going to sleep while smoking a cigarette might do it.

 

[madamx]

ok I found this guy.. its a long shot BUT here goes

Missing Since: January 1996 from Tulsa, Oklahoma
Classification: Missing
Date Of Birth: October 30, 1958
Age: 37
Height: 5'10-6'0"
Weight: 200 lbs.
Hair Color: Brown
Eye Color: Green
Race: White
Gender: Male
Medical Conditions: Has a history of mental health problems.
Case Number: 1996-687629


Details of Disappearance
Richard Rounsaville was last seen in January 1996, at which time he was living near a hospital and was preparing to get his own apartment.
The victim has a history of mental health problems and was reported missing by his family.




http://www.nampn.org/cases/rounsaville_richard.html

 

[Baudelaire]

ok I found this guy.. its a long shot BUT here goes

Missing Since: January 1996 from Tulsa, Oklahoma
Classification: Missing
Date Of Birth: October 30, 1958
Age: 37
Height: 5'10-6'0"
Weight: 200 lbs.
Hair Color: Brown
Eye Color: Green
Race: White
Gender: Male
Medical Conditions: Has a history of mental health problems.
Case Number: 1996-687629


Details of Disappearance
Richard Rounsaville was last seen in January 1996, at which time he was living near a hospital and was preparing to get his own apartment.
The victim has a history of mental health problems and was reported missing by his family.

View attachment 128893


http://www.nampn.org/cases/rounsaville_richard.html

Oct 30 is his birthdate, if it's him the scales tattoo is missing a zero.

It doesn't mention tattoos and those are old tattoos.

The no clothes thing- if someone else was with him they could have realised he was dead already. They could have taken his clothes then. They are very possessive about clothes especially in winter. They won't take clothes off a sleeping or drugged person. Those stairs look like they go down a level, he may have gone down to get out of the wind.

But strangely he is found outside the place, where there is no shelter. That doesn't make sense.

He might have died from exposure on the stairs or in one of those nooks. But then someone must have moved him and the box to the sidewalk. They may have set the box alight so that they could call the fire station and legitimately report something. I'm just guessing here.

If so can the fashion institute be contacted and would they keep records of past employees who worked there as custodians? I'm thinking if it was someone from there who moved the box, it would be the custodian not the CEO.

It's another three mile shot, but the custodian could have seen him there more than once. Homeless people seeking shelter will go back to anyplace they aren't chased away from. They even go back to places they are chased away from. They are there at night and in the morning they're gone again.

The three mile shot is the custodian may have known his name.

@carbuff nothing on the 1960 census records for the surname Dix/on.

 

[DaisyChains]

IMO this was likely a homicide and body dump. A quick dump. Less people outside when it is very cold in those nice areas of NY where this doe was discovered - less chances of transient or tourists to see who dropped the body in that area as well. Seems like the area is so nice that a homeless guy couldn't park himself infront of a mini city castle long before getting the shove. That is why I thought Ribiero having disappeared from CT two days before this doe being found and Ribiero's car being left in NYC after disappearing seems rather coincidental. I hate to also mention that LISK was murdering by this time and we know at least 2 of his victims were from the CT area (i doubt it was LISK, but who knows).

In my mind and working theory (maybe Ribiero was visiting someone in NYC from CT and when he was murdered they had to hide his car) whoever murdered Ribiero did so outside of NYC in CT and wanted to drop his car/body far from the crime scene and area of his murderer's geographic awareness. many times it isn't coincidence when it comes to investigating these things. But again, Ribiero doesn't have a birthdate of Oct. 3rd.

Let's say John Doe had a secret lifestyle in which he had a boyfriend/courtship that ended in homicide: He could have gotten into a fight with a man/interest and been fatally wounded in the incident. Might also explain was he was never reported missing or claimed - his family may have outcast him long before he died.

The namus report and other reports I have found so far have not mentioned whether or not the death was self caused or homicide, but the UID is referred to as a "victim" in most narratives and not "decedent".

Im considering sending him in as a match just for good measure.

 

[DaisyChains]

xmadamx, were the Alig Party Monster peeps hanging around that Chelsea area around this time? I think the murder of "angel" happened in 1996 right? So much going on in the gay community at that time in NYC! Lots of people in the closet as well still in 1996.

secretly I would have loved to have been a club kid back in that era.

Maybe this John Doe was one of those club kids at one point. <3

 

[DaisyChains]

can the box he was found in be sourced?

when rereading about the Alig/Riggs/Melendez case (Party Monster) I am seeing that Angel Melendez's head and torso were put into a cardboard box. Which got me focusing on the box in this Doe's case.


"After dismembering Melendez's body, Alig and Riggs placed his legs inside a duffel bag and dumped it into the Hudson River, not far from their apartment in Hell's Kitchen. They then put their friend's head and torso in a cardboard box that had once held a television, and threw the last of Melendez's body into the river near Manhattan's Chelsea Pier."

https://www.ranker.com/list/club-kid-party-monster-michael-alig-facts/cat-mcauliffe

 

[DaisyChains]

eeep per the article ink above, this was also going on at that time :
"Around the time Alig and Riggs were arrested for killing Melendez, law enforcement were also building a case against Gatien, believing that he was a drug racketeer who sold narcotics through Limelight and the Tunnel, two of the Manhattan nightclubs he operated." That is why Alig and Riggs got a slap on the wrist for murdering and dismembering Angel.

 

[carbuff]

Ribiero's Namus:

https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/4412/0

It looks like he has DNA, but the decedent has fingerprints and dentals, so it wouldn't have been picked up automatically.

Ribiero is listed as 5'7", which is significantly smaller than the decedent (six feet).

 

[DaisyChains]

can you guys check and see if nampn.org is up and running (north american missing persons network)? It isn't coming up for me now of course

 

[DaisyChains]

Ribiero's Namus:

https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/4412/0

It looks like he has DNA, but the decedent has fingerprints and dentals, so it wouldn't have been picked up automatically.

Ribiero is listed as 5'7", which is significantly smaller than the decedent (six feet).

Yup I&#8217;m sure it wasn&#8217;t him. I need to get back in practice again with my Doe identifications. I&#8217;ve been rusty this past month bc I took a break for nearly a year.

Hm so this Doe 5&#8217;7&#8221; and NamUs report says his hair was kind of ginger? Who the heck was this person?! I need nampn to get back online so I can search those Oct 3 birthdates. Make myself useful for once lol

 

[madamx]

xmadamx, were the Alig Party Monster peeps hanging around that Chelsea area around this time? I think the murder of "angel" happened in 1996 right? So much going on in the gay community at that time in NYC! Lots of people in the closet as well still in 1996.

secretly I would have loved to have been a club kid back in that era.

Maybe this John Doe was one of those club kids at one point. <3

Oh DaisyChains Funny you mention this because its another thought I had since the Limelight was not so far from where this guy was found.. The UID was found on west 24th st and Limelight was on 20th and so was this bar club called Wonderbar we used to go to. I met Angel when he first came around before he wore the angel wings he was punk rock with a mohawk he dated a friend of mine back then briefly. I have photos from prob 1995 of him and my friend at limelight. Those days were a bit insane if I did not have photos I probably would not remember them at all. I thought that maybe he could of been another one of the kids that came out from the outer boroughs and had an OD at someones house and was dumped and someone set him on fire.There are so many people my friends and I met from that time that we would just never end up talking to again..times were so different then. I wish we had a bit more info on this UID..

That is great that you submitted Ribiero because honestly you never know.. it does say that the guy had curly hair..Ribiero could of lightened it. Did it mention exactly where his care was found? yes I know the only thing is his birthday does not match.

its kind of like the Owen guy I posted that supposedly went missing a month later.. he went missing not to far from when this UID was found.. but there is no birthday or mention of tattoos.

yes you are correct the murder of angel happened in 1996 actually in March of 1996.. pretty much a month after the UID.. https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/15539321/andre-melendez

 

[madamx]

Yup I&#8217;m sure it wasn&#8217;t him. I need to get back in practice again with my Doe identifications. I&#8217;ve been rusty this past month bc I took a break for nearly a year.

Hm so this Doe 5&#8217;7&#8221; and NamUs report says his hair was kind of ginger? Who the heck was this person?! I need nampn to get back online so I can search those Oct 3 birthdates. Make myself useful for once lol

wait so the Doe is 5'7 then where the heck did I get 6 feet from.. now I am confused!.. You ARE so useful always Daisychains!! Oh noooooo Nampan is not working anymore? what happened.. I noticed CharleyProject all different and confusing now too I cant find anything on it.. I think I am just stupid haha!