NY - Officer Daniel Pantaleo used deadly chokehold on Eric Garner, Staten Island, July 2014

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  • #441
cady said:
I do not know if he was asked for ID. He seemed to know who the cop was and the cop seemed to know who he was. We do not know if he was carrying "loosies" nor if he was caught that day PEDDLING them. But he was known to be a peddler of loosies, so the presumption was that that was what he was doing. The issue really was did the police use excessive force in arresting him. The GJ said "NO". Many American citizens see it differently. Some are protesting. JMO
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The grand jury who had all the facts said no. That is the end here. I am getting more and more weary of the people resisting arrest and then getting mad when the police need to use force to make them comply.
 
  • #442
katydid23 said:
But what happens if a person refuses to be arrested. Are cops supposed to shrug and walk away?
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Katy how do they handle it in say, the UK, where their stats do not even approach ours? And not only that, but most of their LE are not armed with guns? Maybe we could look an see what they're doing. Something tells me they aren't shrugging off a crime every time a perp resists.

And really, we are talking about selling smokes!! How about yes, let him go, if the choice is between someone dead and not getting an arrest on a non violent crime. Does no one see the absurdity here? That you are justifying force because of a non violent crime?!


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  • #443
cady said:
I see it from both sides and it is obvious that there is a problem that needs to be worked on. It is so easy to blame one group or another, but blaming is not a solution. I feel for the guys who shared their thoughts with you at your son's house. That was not public, it was among friends and family,and I believe them. Did anyone suggest possible solutions? JMO
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Yes, it was a private place and they were venting. Not speaking publicly. But very sad and frustrated. I did not hear a lot of solutions other than to stand down and not engage in situations where they would have to defend themselves. A lot of their patrol time is proactive---pulling over people who seem suspicious, stopping peeps who are wandering around pking lots, or loitering. They do so because this is often how crimes begin...criminals looking for an opportunity.

But the cops were saying they want to avoid those situations now because this is also where someone pulls out a weapon and engages them. And they do not feel they have the support needed if they get into a shoot out anymore. They think the public will call them liars and racist cop killers.
 
  • #444
Gardenlady said:
Katy how do they handle it in say, the UK, where their stats do not even approach ours? And not only that, but most of their LE are not armed with guns? Maybe we could look an see what they're doing. Something tells me they aren't shrugging off a crime every time a perp resists.

And really, we are talking about selling smokes!! How about yes, let him go, if the choice is between someone dead and not getting an arrest on a non violent crime. Does no one see the absurdity here? That you are justifying force because of a non violent crime?!


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Are there many gangs in the UK carrying automatic weapons? Are there many cops in the UK that get shot in the head while sitting in their patrol cars?
 
  • #445
Gardenlady said:
Katy how do they handle it in say, the UK, where their stats do not even approach ours? And not only that, but most of their LE are not armed with guns? Maybe we could look an see what they're doing. Something tells me they aren't shrugging off a crime every time a perp resists.

And really, we are talking about selling smokes!! How about yes, let him go, if the choice is between someone dead and not getting an arrest on a non violent crime. Does no one see the absurdity here? That you are justifying force because of a non violent crime?!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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You cannot just shrug and walk away when someone refuses to be arrested because it is a nonviolent crime. Do you value your safety? because if we end up with a neutered Police dept it will not be a good thing.
 
  • #446
Gardenlady said:
Most? Really? Do you have a citation or source for that? Or just the limited view you have gotten from watching occupy live stream? You know their intentions? You know that "most" are just lying about having been hassled by cops simply for being a person of color?

Every person of color in my family or that I know has their own story. And I can absolutely guarantee you that at least 80% have no idea what "occupy" or "code pink" are lol. I guess they are all making their stories up. I guess I am making my own up!


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There is a very large contingent of OCCUPY/REVCOM etc. It is all over their twitters and their newsletters. It is not a secret. They are proud and bragging about it.

I highly doubt that 80% of the crowd are just regular citizens that have been victims of police brutality. jmo
 
  • #447
katydid23 said:
Are there many gangs in the UK carrying automatic weapons? Are there many cops in the UK that get shot in the head while sitting in their patrol cars?
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My guess? NO. GUN RESTRICTIONS generally prevent that scenario. JMO
 
  • #448
bwt42 said:
EG certainly looked unresponsive at the least. Not knowing his status we still thought some sort of comfort or aid should have been rendered. As to the cover up, someone suggested upthread the cops were in cover their axx mode. I think they were suggesting the COPS wanted to say he was ok when he was put in the ambulance.
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Re the cover up part, I guess I wouldn't use the term cover up, but the cop on the right seemed to know something was wrong. He was the one who attempted to arouse SG and had his hand inside the shirt to feel for breathing. He did a good job. If you watch his body language and his facial expressions, he reminds me of when there is a serious screw up in the hospital. Same face. I think he was the only one there who seemed to have a clue. IMOO
 
  • #449
I know this is an absurd question but I had someone ask me and I didn't know the answer and I'm curious. If a cop is attempting to make what is unquestionably unlawful arrest. Let's say in the process of questioning why he would be unlawfully arresting you, the officer pulls a gun and threatens to shoot you. Is a person entitled to shoot first and claim self defense? The hypothetical obviously presumes that the underlying actions of the officer were unlawful. We were just debating situations in which self defense can be a defense.

I'm pretty sure it's been used in situations where someone shoots an officer who raids a house(wrong house) without announcing first as the guy had no clue who the armed guys were in his house. But the question posed is different because you know it's a cop. Just claiming their actions are unlawful.
 
  • #450
katydid23 said:
And I can say with confidence that violence against cops by minorities has been going on for a long while as well. It is a two way street, imo.
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Is this another, more accurate way of saying what you intended to say-

'...violence against cops by criminals has been going on for a long...'
 
  • #451
Zuri said:
Re the cover up part, I guess I wouldn't use the term cover up, but the cop on the right seemed to know something was wrong. He was the one who attempted to arouse SG and had his hand inside the shirt to feel for breathing. He did a good job. If you watch his body language and his facial expressions, he reminds me of when there is a serious screw up in the hospital. Same face. I think he was the only one there who seemed to have a clue. IMOO
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We will never know if he was called as a witness, but all of the attending cops except chokeholder were given immunity. JMO
 
  • #452
  • #453
  • #454
cady said:
My guess? NO. GUN RESTRICTIONS generally prevent that scenario. JMO
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Right. So the cops here have to plan for the high possibility that someone they stop might be armed.
 
  • #455
al66pine said:
Is this another, more accurate way of saying what you intended to say-

'...violence against cops by criminals has been going on for a long...'
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TRUE. I should change that . thank you/
 
  • #456
bwt42 said:
True story. My spouse & I made a wrong turn leaving a Chicago convention hall & ended up in Cabrini Green. Two black police officers saw us & knew we didn't belong there. They stopped us & we explained what happened. They said we were in a dangerous neighborhood & they escorted us until we were safely on the interstate. I have been a fan of profiling ever since.
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I had a similiar experience before Cabrini was torn down. A group of us girls were on a girls night out and we'd always get lost trying to get back onto 290. We ended up flagging a cop down asking for directions and were told to get out of there quick! I still get lost in that mix of exit ramps....
 
  • #457
  • #458
katydid23 said:
Right. So the cops here have to plan for the high possibility that someone they stop might be armed.
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Right. Cops all over this country and regular citizens have to worry about that. Not that it does not happen in NYC, but restrictions at least reduce the possibility. It's crazy out there....everywhere. Glad I live in a boring little village. JMO
 
  • #459
Cubby said:
BBM. But then why is there no outrage and why are there no protests against black on black crime? I realize that's kind of like the 'which came first, the chicken or the egg' question and that is exactly what is happening here. Selective protesting against selective perpetrators. It's all or nothing, make the protests about ALL perpetrators of crime or let all of it go. Where is the respect when gang turf wars are happening and the code of silence is occuring?
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Because it is not black on black crime. It is criminal on criminal crime. The cops are supposed to be the good guys.
 
  • #460
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