NY - Officer Daniel Pantaleo used deadly chokehold on Eric Garner, Staten Island, July 2014

[ATasteOfHoney]

Certainly citizens have their own duties, but the armed officers of the state should be held to a much higher standard.


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What do you feel the citizens duties are?
I think this may be part of defining a problem ( and I'm being sincere cause I believe there's a problem but I don't think we are close to coming up with a discussion about a solution---& I mean "we" as a nation).

 

[jmcgladr]

Do you mean an onlooking citizen watching this happen in front of them? Or do you mean ' society as a whole'? I don't know what would happen if another bystander attempted to intervene and check on Garner. Is that what you mean ?

I don't think LE would have allowed it in this case. Even the people taking video and not getting in the way at all were being told to move back. Plus, the police seemed convinced he was breathing and that they didn't have to perform CPR in that case. Even though you can perform at least part of CPR (the chest compressions) if someone is breathing but in cardiac arrest.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

Do you mean an onlooking citizen watching this happen in front of them? Or do you mean ' society as a whole'? I don't know what would happen if another bystander attempted to intervene and check on Garner. Is that what you mean ?

Society as a whole.
Look at the role of LE with their duties; then look at citizens with their duties.
I think that the research to solving our national crisis that we're experiencing needs to start at the very beginning to affect a change eventually.

 

[Zuri]

Certain neighborhoods.....well we have to wonder if it's because that neighborhood really has more criminals or if LE is better manned as a force there or if their policy is to be aggressive.

I really don't know & I keep saying we need more research. Real, extensive research.

Otherwise many may jump to convenient assumptions.

Moo

Interesting point. What would the subject of the research be, and how who would benefit from the research? Would this be for LE?

In medicine, there is a ton of research on a variety of conditions and caregivers benefit in some way. It changes treatment and protocols. The info though caters to a specific group, ie nurses, doctors etc. Alot of the time though, when treating patients, I am dealing with what is in front of me and doing what I know works, drawing from experience. I am not thinking statistics or research.

I am interested in your POV and would like to read more. TIA.

 

[bwt42]

To answer your last question, I think they pick and choose who they see as resisting arrest, regardless of actions of that person. Do you think everyone who doesn't immediately put there hands behind their backs gets charged for resisting?? What about those who plead not to be arrested... How many of them do you think get charged for resisting arrest? Let's ask our verified LE. Archangel? I know what I think.

Hey, we agree on something. I think LE takes a lot of things into consideration when deciding to arrest for resisting.

 

[CoolJ]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings

I take back partially what I said before now that I have thought about it. I Think demonstrations sometimes are needed to get a POV across. It is the destruction I have a problem with.

For example, in NYC, the protestors marched somewhat peacefully, but then began throwing trash in the streets. What purpose did that serve other than to make the cops clean it up? Granted, This is minor. When I saw the pics of a bunch of Upper East Side kids participating in a "die in" in Macy's Herald Square, I don't think their message was taken seriously, and was thought to be more of a nuisance.

Seriously, I am not sure what message the protestors are trying to send. I am a little confused on that part. What exactly are they protesting about? The GJ decision or something deeper? TIA

Something deeper, something some of us are trying to get across here, but it keeps getting swept under the rug or labelled "invalid". It is frustrating. Now imagine living your entire life with that frustration and nobody wants to listen or even acknowledge what you are saying. It is heartbreaking really. IMO

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

Interesting point. What would the subject of the research be, and how who would benefit from the research? Would this be for LE?

In medicine, there is a ton of research on a variety of conditions and caregivers benefit in some way. It changes treatment and protocols. The info though caters to a specific group, ie nurses, doctors etc. Alot of the time though, when treating patients, I am dealing with what is in front of me and doing what I know works, drawing from experience. I am not thinking statistics or research.

I am interested in your POV and would like to read more. TIA.

Thank you....I posted more about it in post 744, I believe.
We have a breakdown occurring in our society. We need research to understand where this is occurring. Why is this occurring.

It's very important otherwise we may make assumptions that are not true.

 

[Ray_of_hope]

I wonder what his vitals were when they hooked him up to monitors inside the ambulance? They should release this information. That would put an end to speculation.

Exactly!

 

[Gardenlady]

Something deeper, something some of us are trying to get across here, but it keeps getting swept under the rug or labelled "invalid". It is frustrating. Now imagine living your entire life with that frustration and nobody wants to listen or even acknowledge what you are saying. It is heartbreaking really. IMO

Ok I lied, THIS will be my last post lol. Just wanted to say thanks for this! :goodpost:


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[Archangel7]

I hear the cops are even afraid to go to East St. Louis....tell you anything?

You know, I have heard and seen the same things wherever I have worked. It's a shame to let that slide too. This is America and anyone should be able to go anywhere. Plus I KNOW there are really good folk trapped in those neighborhoods that can't sell and get out. I have stood with them and been shown the bullet holes in their brick. A young child far away riding in a pickup truck with her father on a State highway was hit in the head by a stray gang banger's bullet and died instantly. It got every ones attention AND cooperation. The neighborhood begged for whatever it took to fix their streets.

So we along with the Fed Gov(DEA helos with light bars) completely raided the place one night and, to cut to the chase, rearranged some roads to one way, sent the worst to prison for decades and the place is a model in that city now and even 20 years later still a beautiful neighborhood. It was the first of several done that way. The residents are thrilled their streets are safe and their property values have skyrocketed.

I've never been too scared to take my Patrol car anywhere although motor pool did find a bullet in my trunk that came thru the license plate. There should be no rest until East St. Louis is a nice neighborhood again if what you say is in fact the case.

 

[Zuri]

Something deeper, something some of us are trying to get across here, but it keeps getting swept under the rug or labelled "invalid". It is frustrating. Now imagine living your entire life with that frustration and nobody wants to listen or even acknowledge what you are saying. It is heartbreaking really. IMO

Please be reassured, that no one here is sweeping anything under the rug. IMO, we need this type of civil discourse to truly understand where the problems lie. Each of us bring life experiences that are different and we all need to be open to understanding another POV. IMO

 

[Gardenlady]

Please be reassured, that no one here is sweeping anything under the rug. IMO, we need this type of civil discourse to truly understand where the problems lie. Each of us bring life experiences that are different and we all need to be open to understanding another POV. IMO

Oy, last one lol...

People ARE sweeping things under the rug here though. Both by the TOS not allowing discussion, as well as people using words like "invalid" to dismiss actual experience, or people who always say "it's not about race!".

Those are all silencing and dismissive and sweeping away. Not everyone here - but many.


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[Ray_of_hope]

I just showed this video to my DH MD. He had not seen it before. He had the following comments:
EMT should check pulse for 10 seconds. Radial pulse check is ineffective. Carotid pulse not checked correctly and not for 10 seconds. EMT assessment was inadequate.

The fact that he was in cardiac arrest at the time he hit the ER, 2.5 miles away and was not resuscitated successfully, lends one to believe he was in cardiac arrest prior. I don't know if this helps in explaining why some of us are critical of their actions. IMO

Sorry O/T: Hey Zuri, We have so much in common with our and DH's professions. Awesome!

 

[krimekat]

Why can't police treat people in the "bad neighborhoods" with the same courtesy and respect and lack of suspicion that they do here in my neighborhood? That is an issue. IMO

I don't even understand this comment. I assume LE treat people the way they are treated in certain communities -- we all are just human, ya know

I live in an urban area with "good" & "bad" neighbors depending on the block. I am thankful I have LE living in my neighborhood keeping the "bad" element at bay & away from the "good" area

 

[Archangel7]

Why can't police treat people in the "bad neighborhoods" with the same courtesy and respect and lack of suspicion that they do here in my neighborhood? That is an issue. IMO

All I know do. Any that don't are likely getting a huge amount of Michael Brown type interaction, belligerant, defiant.
Cops are taught to be professional. They're taught to be as nice and cordial as the public will allow you to be.

Now having said that. It is human nature to be on alert in a neighborhood where they try to ambush you, throw rocks, etc. Plus you know if you do everything by the book(law) you still end up like the EG case.

Vicious circle/self fulfilling prophecy.

So the good decent people in the neighborhoods are over run by the thugs, who run the 'hood and they don't want the police in there to help the good folk they dominate. so when you go in there you are not likely to see many good law abiding taxpayers, mostly gangbangers, thugs, drug dealers, etc., so your behavior can reflect that.

 

[jmcgladr]

I don't even understand this comment. I assume LE treat people the way they are treated in certain communities -- we all are just human, ya know

I live in an urban area with "good" & "bad" neighbors depending on the block. I am thankful I have LE living in my neighborhood keeping the "bad" element at bay & away from the "good" area

Police are professionals and should act professional - if they are treated badly, I believe they need to rise above it and not respond in kind. I think if people in the "bad" neighborhoods were treated with more basic respect and fairness by police, they would themselves treat police with more respect and fairness. It has to start somewhere. I see unequal treatment being applied.

 

[Zuri]

OT: This is a very light hearted and silly analogy, but it may be a parallel in a way.

DD#2 just came in to tell me that she had asked DD#1 to use the bathroom downstairs as she wanted to take a shower and did not wish to do so in an odorous environment. DD#1 did not listen and did not oblige, and did not take DD#2's feelings into account. So now DD#2 is complaining to me. I have to tell DD#1 to get the Glade spray to ameliorate the situation. DD#1 tells me she had lit a candle, which is somewhat helpful, but not as effective.

Neither one wanted to be inconvenienced. Neither one respected the other's POV. Both thought they were entitled to use the bathroom for their specific needs. One protested. The other didn't listen. One needed me to mediate this ridiculous situation (mind you they are 23 and 21). Now there is an awareness of the other's POV and hopefully this won't be an issue again, however I doubt it.

I post this not to diminish the seriousness of the topic at hand. I post this as an example of how not listening with consideration of another can cause a problem, however minor and ridiculous as this one is. I hope you all were able to smile and relate in some way to the burden of being a parent today.

 

[jggordo]

Please correct me if I am wrong but Criminally Negligent Homicide was not one of the charges presented for the Grand Jury. So shouldn't the officers be able to be charged now? And if immunity was given to the other PO for the other charges couldn't they not be given immunity for the new one? Once this man had been taken into custody by Police, I believe the victim became their responsibility. Just because EMT had arrived does not mean their responsibility shifts 100% to them. In listening to the long video tape, certainly between all police officers AND EMT's it seems that SOMEONE knew how to check for both breathing and pulse. I believe using a chokehold that is against NYPD policy and protocol for the very reasons of it's dangers surely constitutes criminally negligent homicide. Also on the tape I did not hear the Police tell EMT that the victim had complained of difficulty breathing, which should have been first order of business.

JMO's

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

OT: This is a very light hearted and silly analogy, but in a way it may be a parallel in a way.

DD#2 just came in to tell me that she had asked DD#1 to use the bathroom downstairs as she wanted to take a shower and did not wish to do so in an odorous environment. DD#1 did not listen and did not oblige, and did not take DD#2's feelings into account. So now DD#2 is complaining to me. I have to tell DD#1 to get the Glade spray to ameliorate the situation. DD#1 tells me she had lit a candle, which is somewhat helpful, but not as effective.

Neither one wanted to be inconvenienced. Neither one respected the other's POV. Both thought they were entitled to use the bathroom for their specific needs. One protested. The other didn't listen. One needed me to mediate this ridiculous situation (mind you they are 23 and 21). Now there is an awareness of the other's POV and hopefully this won't be an issue again, however I doubt it.

I post this not to diminish the seriousness of the topic at hand. I post this as an example of how not listening with consideration of another can cause a problem, however minor and ridiculous as this one is. I hope you all were able to smile and relate in some way to the burden of being a parent today.

Zurich.... Great analogy.
And that is why independent research into the debacle we are experiencing as a whole needs to be addressed.
What is the role of today's LE needs to be defined. Have they become too militarized since 9/11 or has there been a need for that?
What are the expectations of the actions & roles of our citizens?
Are they accountable in any way?
Are citizens abreast of the laws & repercussions as much as they should be?
And then there is the cause & effect----if a law-breaker does this then he/she can expect this or that.
Are there grey areas & what are they (from LE's perspective & from the citizens).

See, we can't even begin to remedy a bad situation if we can't even define what all of our roles & duties are within our society.
And we must educate through research.

We all have our own perspectives, assumptions, & emotions. But that doesn't make them true. We need research, eduction, training.

It's time for that.....actually, it's long overdue.

 

[Zuri]

Please correct me if I am wrong but Criminally Negligent Homicide was not one of the charges presented for the Grand Jury. So shouldn't the officers be able to be charged now? And if immunity was given to the other PO for the other charges couldn't they not be given immunity for the new one? Once this man had been taken into custody by Police, I believe the victim became their responsibility. Just because EMT had arrived does not mean their responsibility shifts 100% to them. In listening to the long video tape, certainly between all police officers AND EMT's it seems that SOMEONE knew how to check for both breathing and pulse. I believe using a chokehold that is against NYPD policy and protocol for the very reasons of it's dangers surely constitutes criminally negligent homicide.

JMO's

I understand your point, but IMO it is not as clear cut as this. EG was also culpable in the events that unfolded. This is a grey area for me and I am not sure LE should be held 100 % accountable for the death of EG. To me, it was a Perfect Storm. How does one lay the entire blame at the feet of LE?

ETA: I can't even find Reckless Endangerment here per definition. It has to do with intent and I don't think LE intended for EG to die.