GUILTY NY - Phoenix & Luna Rodriguez, 1, twins, die in hot car, Bronx, 26 July 2019 *No jail*

  • #381
(Very different from J. Ross Harris' Hyundai, very different.)

The only difference that mattered is that Ross Harris & his wife were harder to sympathize with because they were odd people. We didn't like them. Ross Harris likely didn't mean to kill his child anymore than this guy did, but due to what WAS occupying his mind at work, and his lack of character he was convicted of murder.

Convicted doesn't make it true though. Did Casey Anthony murder Caylee? Yes or No?

( I don't care how many times he looked at his son, took him out to eat ect...when that disconnect happened, it did, and that's why cooper died. Not some nefarious murder plot. Even though that was a hot thread and everyone loved crucifying him).
 
  • #382
deleted by me. Taking a break.
 
  • #383
The only difference that mattered is that Ross Harris & his wife were harder to sympathize with because they were odd people.

RSBM BBM

The only difference that matters to me is the arrangement of driver & car seat in different vehicles.

My certification has lapsed since I changed jobs, but at the time of Cooper Harris' murder, I was a certified Child Passenger Safety Technician.

Safe Kids Worldwide

Ross Harris backed his Hyundai mid-sized SUV into a parking space. Cooper was in an appropriately fitted car seat, which according to LE was appropriately installed in the vehicle.

To back the car up, the driver looks over the right shoulder and the driver's elbow bumps the car seat. (Due to Cooper's height, likely his head as well.)

In the present situation, the car seats are most likely out of the driver's field of vision completely. Media reports the car has blacked out windows, dark in the back seat as well.

Mr. Rodriguez, no reminder.

Ross Harris, visual & physical reminder.

That's the difference that matters to me.

JMTechnicalO YMMV LRR
 
  • #384
I suppose I should have chosen my words more specifically. He was in very close proximity to his deceased children multiple times, and some how didn't see them or triggered to remember.

If he did indeed get in and put of his cars multiple times with his children right there behind him, that will be very difficult to explain. Especially given the size of the car. We don't know the full timeline or all his movements. It's just based on what could have been his movements from what we do know. I don't believe he intentionally left his children. Since I believe he forgot, this information (strictly IMO) would lean towards incredible negligence. You can forget and be negligent. That is clearly what LE thought at the time when they brought charges. We will see if that holds as they gather more information. He had multiple times to see them and remember and he didn't. That could be difficult for him to explain away. If there was an obvious or overwhelming smell, even harder.

ALL JMO

I'm not sort of understanding the point. I mean it kind of sounds like you actually are saying that either he intentionally murdered his kids because there's no way he could have missed them, or he saw them and just didn't give a rat's you know what? And every time he noticed them he just decided it wasn't a big deal? I mean are you saying he cruelly ignored them or you think he was super high or something?

I'm not really getting it. Because while you say you think he forgot and didn't intentionally kill them
you also seem to be saying there's no way he could have been in such close proximity and missed them.

Or are you saying that the fact that his brain enabled him to miss what others would not miss, means he's a criminal? A bad person because his brain works different?

Or a bad parent because you think there's no way you would miss that?

This confuses me. Do you think he's a bad parent in general and that's why he was able to not notice them or remember? That only bad parents would miss that? Because, why? They're stupid? They don't care?

How do you explain someone like the professor in Irvine? Mickey's dad who forgot his beloved son all day. A man who worked for years and spent thousands of thousands to make a baby and then nervously took baby safety classes and employed every safety technique taught to him, read all the baby care books and seemed devoted to his child, is that man somehow suddenl a terrible and negligent parent because his brain somehow failed him?

I don't understand.

If someone does something to make it easier for such a lapse to happen or if they intentionally leave their kid in a hot car not to die but because they can't be bothered, that clear negligence. I understand that.
 
  • #385
RSBM BBM

The only difference that matters to me is the arrangement of driver & car seat in different vehicles.

My certification has lapsed since I changed jobs, but at the time of Cooper Harris' murder, I was a certified Child Passenger Safety Technician.

Safe Kids Worldwide

Ross Harris backed his Hyundai mid-sized SUV into a parking space. Cooper was in an appropriately fitted car seat, which according to LE was appropriately installed in the vehicle.

To back the car up, the driver looks over the right shoulder and the driver's elbow bumps the car seat. (Due to Cooper's height, likely his head as well.)

In the present situation, the car seats are most likely out of the driver's field of vision completely. Media reports the car has blacked out windows, dark in the back seat as well.

Mr. Rodriguez, no reminder.

Ross Harris, visual & physical reminder.

That's the difference that matters to me.

JMTechnicalO YMMV LRR
To you maybe that mattered, but most people without technical expertise just hated Ross. And his wife, who was lambasted for every little thing she did and said. I don't think he planned to kill cooper. Not that it matters what I think.
 
  • #386
How could anyone stand up for Ross Harris? wow. The guy actually googled how long it would take to die in a hot car.....
 
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  • #387
The only difference that mattered is that Ross Harris & his wife were harder to sympathize with because they were odd people. We didn't like them. Ross Harris likely didn't mean to kill his child anymore than this guy did, but due to what WAS occupying his mind at work, and his lack of character he was convicted of murder.


Convicted doesn't make it true though. Did Casey Anthony murder Caylee? Yes or No?


( I don't care how many times he looked at his son, took him out to eat ect...when that disconnect happened, it did, and that's why cooper died. Not some nefarious murder plot. Even though that was a hot thread and everyone loved crucifying him).


I had no feelings about Ross and his wife. They seemed to me like millions of Americans all across this nation. Not weird. Just average. Ugh. It is so annoying when I analyze evidence so intently and dispassionately to have people reduce my logical analysis to emotions I don't even feel. It's a different side of the same coin that harsh judgment is, IMO.

I disagree that Ross was innocent. Timing can be very important. If you see your kid and 40 seconds later forget when turning in an area that you aren't routinely at (which means the autopilot doesn't kick in), that can be a factor. But in the Cooper case there were numerous factors:

1. He just happened to stop taking daily photos of Cooper a couple weeks before incident.
2. Ross watched a news report just before his child's death about a guy who became an advocate after leaving his kid in a hot car, and as a result of the video, Ross said he had been turning and looking behind him at the car seat so he won't forget Copper, "because the worst fear of me is leaving my son in a hot car." He just coincidentally happened not to turn and "look again" that particular day. (I re watched the tape. Those were his exact words. It WAS his "worst" fear). There is no damn way that's your worst fear and you're EDUCATED about it and it immediately happens to you. THAT defies logic.
3. In addition to watching the news report about the man turned advocate who left his kid in the car, and having that impact him enough that he started to look behind him so he wouldn't forget Cooper, he also, right before Cooper died, watched a video of a vet showing exactly how hot it gets for dogs in the car. He watched the whole thing. And then left his son in the car shortly after.
4. The day before Cooper died, LH texted, "Don't forget Cooper." Answer, "NEVER" .
5. Typically didn't go into Chik-fil-A to eat. Used the drive-thru. Just happened to do so that day with his son, conveniently getting him on camera that morning. (Ross was a regular but the worker who helped him had never met Cooper before. Ross stated he usually went through the drive thru, which, by the way, would make it more believable that he had forgotten Cooper as opposed to actually taking him out of the car seat and interacting in the restaurant with him).
6. Often bought CFA for the workers at the daycare. Coincidentally did not order food for them that day.
7. Even though he usually called the daycare when he's running late, he didn't that day, despite being quite late.
8. Cooper was wide awake when exiting the restaurant, but just happened to fall instantly asleep while parked in his car seat in the parking lot, before even driving off and stayed deeply asleep for the next six minutes. Cooper just happened to say nothing and made no noise the moment he was placed in the car.
9. He forgot his son in either a couple minutes after strapping him in tightly and kissing him or less than a minute after doing so. And I don't believe Ross was lulled into autopilot in a parked car or while driving 40 seconds to a turn. The cases I've read don't indicate something happening that quickly or in that manner, in a location that isn't usual for them. In a location that’s a long their regular route is different. But he didn’t typically go to Chik Fil A.
10. For six to 7 minutes after leaving CFA, Ross didn't see his son although his proximity to the car seat and Cooper's head in that car was incredible. However magically, later that day, he saw his son when making a turn.
11. Ross just happened to park his car that morning, in a manner that involved backing in, but didn't see his kid as he did so.
12. Communications about kids being at their childcare or getting there are often (not always, but often) triggers for parents who accidentally left them in the car. But not for Ross. Not ever for Ross: Text from LH: “Get to work ok?” Wasn’t a trigger, even though the question had a “safety” implication. And could trigger a memory of driving to work and to childcare.
13. He just happened to have to go back to his car that afternoon to put something in it, but instead of putting the item in the back seat as many do, or carefully on the passenger seat, he tossed the fragile items in the front driver’s side, keeping his head above the roof line, and not looking or placing the items.
14. He just happened to coincidentally take a longer route to the movies to meet his friends that evening - one that would have him drive by a crowded parking lot where he "discovered" his son.
15. A paramedic - not a cop - with no reason to lie, stated Ross showed no emotion when he pronounced the child dead.
16. His son is dead but he can, the very day he died, talk about wanting to be an advocate for hot car death prevention.
17. Ross was nonchalant as video showed, when he went into jail reception after arrest, sat with a relaxed posture and had small talk with another inmate. The day his son died.

Not to mention the things he said to his affairs that indicated he was unhappy and wanted a child free or responsibility free life. But the most crucial factors for me is how recently educated the dude was about hot car deaths and how he proclaimed it was his worst fear and he watched a video about how long it takes for a dog to die in a hot car. Just prior to the death of his son. That isn't expalined by any scientific research and it defies all logic.

In none of the accidental cases had the parents been educated about hot car deaths and obsessed about it prior to it happening. Let alone right before it happened. On that alone I can never believe that case was an accident. It’s not logical.

When it comes to this one, if as many similar factors are at play I believe we will be looking at something different than an accident. And please guys, you can likely find an excuse of some sort for every item on my list. But the cumulative effect is the key.
 
  • #388
RSBM BBM

The only difference that matters to me is the arrangement of driver & car seat in different vehicles.

My certification has lapsed since I changed jobs, but at the time of Cooper Harris' murder, I was a certified Child Passenger Safety Technician.

Safe Kids Worldwide

Ross Harris backed his Hyundai mid-sized SUV into a parking space. Cooper was in an appropriately fitted car seat, which according to LE was appropriately installed in the vehicle.

To back the car up, the driver looks over the right shoulder and the driver's elbow bumps the car seat. (Due to Cooper's height, likely his head as well.)

In the present situation, the car seats are most likely out of the driver's field of vision completely. Media reports the car has blacked out windows, dark in the back seat as well.

Mr. Rodriguez, no reminder.

Ross Harris, visual & physical reminder.

That's the difference that matters to me.

JMTechnicalO YMMV LRR
Cooper was actually not in an appropriately fitted car seat. He was several inches past the height restriction which made his head stick up even higher above the top of the seat. And they had a front-facing seat that was the right size but after a recent weekend trip Ross left that seat in Leanna’s car and instead strapped poor little Cooper in the seat that wasn’t the right size and instead held him down very tightly due to the straps not being long enough for Cooper’s height. Ross wanted to make sure Cooper couldn’t wiggle his way out of that seat.
 
  • #389
I’ve read things in articles today; apparently there was road construction that caused a detour, and the twins had been sick with ear infections recently and not sleeping well. I do believe these are legitimate factors that could have contributed to this incident, because if he was really tired and then had to go a different way, maybe it did interrupt his usual routine enough that it put him on auto pilot towards work instead of backtracking to the daycare.

Now that I know this I am less suspicious than I was.

I do wonder how they managed to fit three car seats in the back seat of an Accord, though.

I’m also a little confused because it was said he usually left the seats at the daycare and that’s what made him finally realize the kids were in the car, was seeing the seats still in the back.

However, it was also said that he had just called his wife to ask her to pick them up from daycare right before he discovered them dead in the backseat.

So if the plan wasn’t for her to pick them up after work already, why would he bother taking their seats out of his car? That would be a lot of extra work for no reason if he just comes back to pick them up again later.
 
  • #390
Honda Accord. Very likely that the seats were lower than the backs of the front seats, and lower than the doors. With two rear-facing seats & another young child, likely the twins were by the doors & the other seat was in the middle. The front seats appear to be individual, the separation is narrow. With blackout windows, difficult to see anything in the back seat.

(Very different from J. Ross Harris' Hyundai, very different.)

JMTechnicalO YMMV

TY. What year was it? I've been looking at photos of Accords and so many of the interiors look different.
 
  • #391
So if the plan wasn’t for her to pick them up after work already, why would he bother taking their seats out of his car? That would be a lot of extra work for no reason if he just comes back to pick them up again later.
RSBM

This is just a WAG but I thought for babies (especially who aren't walking yet) the car seat is sometimes also used as a carrier.

Plus, bringing the seats in to daycare, as a habit, would allow for flexibility of which parent picks them up.

Hmm -- I wonder if the 4-year-old's seat was brought into his daycare. Not as a carrier, obviously, but as a habit in order to permit pickup by either parent? And if it was, and if all three carseats were in the back, that disconnecting process suggests direct proximity to the twins at that time, even moreso than just standing by while a 4-year-old unbuckles himself and scrambles out of the back seat by himself.

I'm still assuming honest blanking out mistake here, just trying to look carefully.
 
  • #392
  • #393
OMG. Makes me so angry! Why are people so stressed out, crazy, drugged up or whatever....doing stupid things. When it's hot you don't even leave your dog in the car......
 
  • #394
How could anyone stand up for Ross Harris? wow. The guy actually googled how long it would take to die in a hot car.....
Thank You!
 
  • #395
  • #396
I’ve read things in articles today; apparently there was road construction that caused a detour, and the twins had been sick with ear infections recently and not sleeping well. I do believe these are legitimate factors that could have contributed to this incident, because if he was really tired and then had to go a different way, maybe it did interrupt his usual routine enough that it put him on auto pilot towards work instead of backtracking to the daycare.

Now that I know this I am less suspicious than I was.

I do wonder how they managed to fit three car seats in the back seat of an Accord, though.

I’m also a little confused because it was said he usually left the seats at the daycare and that’s what made him finally realize the kids were in the car, was seeing the seats still in the back.

However, it was also said that he had just called his wife to ask her to pick them up from daycare right before he discovered them dead in the backseat.

So if the plan wasn’t for her to pick them up after work already, why would he bother taking their seats out of his car? That would be a lot of extra work for no reason if he just comes back to pick them up again later.

He just carried them in as a unit. Possibly because that way no matter who picks them up has a car seat available. I mean people transport their babies in and out of cars in their car seats which often fit right on top of strollers or which they place on shopping carts, or on restaurant seats, all the time.
 
  • #397
I feel so terrible for all of them. What beautiful babies. I just don't know how I could go on if I did this. It would be unbearable.

I'm with you. It would be over for me.
 
  • #398
The funeral service was devastating . I can't even imagine how these folks lived through that. I sometimes wonder why we put ourselves through bearing witness to these soul crushing cases...

And then I am reminded of a Pulitzer prize winning photojournalism series I viewed once, a single mom and her 10yr old son Derick, as he loses his battle with cancer. ( In one picture he is crying in pain, and he screams at her, "Why couldn't you have just made me healthier?!" ) Ouch!

In an interview, the journalist had this to say about witnessing abject misery and the courage it takes to endure it:

“In a situation like this, your instincts as a person are to try to help,” she said. “But as a journalist, you have to step back and let things unfold as they naturally would. It can be very, very painful.

I was documenting a story that needed to be told, and it was a gift to be allowed to be there. Throughout, I had a bigger vision that – because of what I was witnessing – it would bring hope to other families.”

Maybe the more we know about, and don't turn out heads away from, these devastating tragedies, the greater the chance of preventing more of them.
 
  • #399
He just carried them in as a unit. Possibly because that way no matter who picks them up has a car seat available. I mean people transport their babies in and out of cars in their car seats which often fit right on top of strollers or which they place on shopping carts, or on restaurant seats, all the time.
I forget that they make infant seats that hold toddler-size children now so they stay in those carrier type seats longer. I was thinking of the big bulky seats that usually stay in the car.
 
  • #400
The funeral service was devastating . I can't even imagine how these folks lived through that. I sometimes wonder why we put ourselves through bearing witness to these soul crushing cases...

And then I am reminded of a Pulitzer prize winning photojournalism series I viewed once, a single mom and her 10yr old son Derick, as he loses his battle with cancer. ( In one picture he is crying in pain, and he screams at her, "Why couldn't you have just made me healthier?!" ) Ouch!

In an interview, the journalist had this to say about witnessing abject misery and the courage it takes to endure it:

“In a situation like this, your instincts as a person are to try to help,” she said. “But as a journalist, you have to step back and let things unfold as they naturally would. It can be very, very painful.

I was documenting a story that needed to be told, and it was a gift to be allowed to be there. Throughout, I had a bigger vision that – because of what I was witnessing – it would bring hope to other families.”

Maybe the more we know about, and don't turn out heads away from, these devastating tragedies, the greater the chance of preventing more of them.

That's pretty profound.
 

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