NY NY - Saugerties, WhtMale 35-45, 405UMNY, PJs under suit, Omega Sea Master watch, ring, Feb'70

[Keiri]

@adriaticnyc if we post rumors on here the mods get mad but I’m dying to know the scuttle butt rumors around his disappearance,. Maybe his wife had a theory? I’m not related, I just want to help. If you’d like to contact me with info or rumors, kiri_2@hotmail.com is my email. It could help me research things le doesnt

 

[adriaticnyc]

Agreed!

 

[John/Jane Doe]

This could be a case for @othram

 

[adriaticnyc]

This could be a case for @othram

Yes! But the daughter would have to be OK with it. And it's been more than 20 years since I spoke with her.

I am very glad that I joined this website today!

 

[adriaticnyc]

Perhaps I should send a private message to @othram !!!

What caliber ammo made the four bullet holes in the human remains? (Maybe I missed that info). Will go back to beginning of this websleuths.com thread.

 

[othram]

Perhaps I should send a private message to @othram !!!

What caliber ammo made the four bullet holes in the human remains? (Maybe I missed that info). Will go back to beginning of this websleuths.com thread.

We will take a look. In general, you can submit cases to use by email solve@othram.com.

 

[adriaticnyc]

I don't think it's the same Gil, he was just listed as missing from 1969. The obit reads Gil died in 2004. WOndering what he was doing for 2 years the case reads: Circumstances of DisappearanceGil Leite was reported missing by his wife on 12-15-1968. He was last seen in Hartford, CT on 12-11-1968 or 12-12-1968 (at a bar called "Barn") but it's possible he returned to Bloomfield after that. Leite has had no contact with family or any activity since the date he went missing.

I think it should be reported as a match.

@adriaticnyc chiming in: No, Gil Leite did NOT return to Bloomfield CT after the December 1968 disappearance. Got the story of prelude events and aftermath from late 1975 when I met Mrs Leite.

We cannot rule out the possibility that Gil Leite might have gone to Canada. In those days, US Border and Canadian Border officials did not require a passport for individual or multiple travelers in a vehicle.

Or he could have gone to NY/NJ/MA/RI to lay-low. The Brooklyn theory would make sense

DOJ can examine federal tax returns from 1957 to 1968 (data exists someplace). The distraught wife had a heavy financial burden upon his disappearance in order to pay the mortgage.

As for the diver's watch? It could have been a gift from a family member in the US or abroad.

Checking my genealogy data sources, Gil's parents passed away in the 1980s.

 

[branmuffin]

I'm not sure if the UID is Gil Leite. I would think that his wife would know if he owned a watch like the one found on the deceased. If they shared a bedroom and Gil, like many men back in the day, wore a ring and a watch, maybe cufflinks he'd leave them in a little dish on the dresser that his wife would continually move around while she dusted the furniture. She might not remember them on his shirt or on his wrist but she would remember them on the dresser.

A couple of things stuck with me when an inventory of his clothing and possessions were made. First was that he was wearing pajamas under his day clothes. A popular theory is that he woke in the middle of the night and hastily dressed because time was of the essence. Was that something he did voluntarily or does it suggest someone else was directing the action? But if so, why waste time with a tie and a watch and rubber galoshes over his shoes? It doesn't really make sense to me.

What does make sense to me is that perhaps this fellow was not a native of the country, that he had just recently arrived. So many of his belongings hint at Portugal, maybe even Brazil, even the bullets that killed him were manufactured in Brazil and Brazil is steeped in Portuguese culture. His international clothing might suggest that he visited several countries not as a tourist but perhaps as a temporary visitor like a fisherman. His galoshes were made in Canada. Lots of Portuguese fishermen used to visit Canada during their bi-annual fishing of the Grand Banks. Here is an article regarding a documentary that was made in 1967 of a whole fleet of ships that came from Portugal.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newf...-fleet-fishing-cod-grand-banks-1967-1.4515645

It's interesting to note that 1967 was the last year this type of traditional fishing took place in the Grand Banks. The next year factory fishing ships arrived gobbling up hundreds more tons of fish leaving the Grand Banks dangerously close to losing their fish stocks to the point the cod industry collapsed. Many of those fishermen lost work. Many of them were familiar with the east coast of North America; Newfoundland, Nova Scotia, Massachuesetts, and other north eastern states that had fairly large populations of Portuguese. Perhaps this unknown man was looking for economic viability in a new country in an area where he knew people spoke his language.

Getting back to the UID's belongings. If he came from Portugal he came at the worst time of the year, weatherwise. He wouldn't have been prepared for the cold of a February winter. To me, it sounds like he was wearing as many clothes as possible to keep warm. I presume his underwear was worn under the pajamas. Do men usually wear their underwear under their pajamas? He had four layers of clothes on: underwear, pajamas, shirt, pants, and a reversible raincoat. That doesn't sound like someone who was hustled out of bed in the middle of the night only to be shot four times in the head. It just sounds like someone trying to keep warm.

He also had a little key pinned to the inside of his coat. I wondered if it was to a suitcase, locked up in a rooming house somewhere, while he went out to look for a job.

If that was the case, he kind of reminds me of my dad. He left England alone with a couple of letters of recommendation, a small suitcase and about $100.00 to start a new life in Canada.

 

[adriaticnyc]

@branmuffin
Glad of your detailed response. Yes, the wife would know. But so would the surviving daughter. She would recognize the gold watch and ring. She was a young woman when her father went missing.

 

[PatLaurel]

If that was the case, he kind of reminds me of my dad. He left England alone with a couple of letters of recommendation, a small suitcase and about $100.00 to start a new life in Canada.

RSBM

He reminds of my maternal grandfather. (He left Madeira Island to England at the age of 13.)
Family stories aside, the B&W sketch reminds me not only of my grandfather but also one of his brothers who immigrated to Canada in the 60s. The first sketch (color) reminds me of someone I could swear I've seen before... old family photos perhaps?!
I know he's not a close family member of mine... But he looks so familiar that I sometimes wonder if I should submit my DNA.

As a side note, wearing long Johns was a common thing back then. My grandfather never got used to the cold weather vs the eternal spring climate he grew up with. He wore long Johns till the end of his days. And I remember that if for some reason there were no clean and dry long Johns, a pajamas would do the trick. I suspect that was the case with our John Doe.

MOO JMOO

 

[branmuffin]

RSBM

He reminds of my maternal grandfather. (He left Madeira Island to England at the age of 13.)
Family stories aside, the B&W sketch reminds me not only of my grandfather but also one of his brothers who immigrated to Canada in the 60s. The first sketch (color) reminds me of someone I could swear I've seen before... old family photos perhaps?!
I know he's not a close family member of mine... But he looks so familiar that I sometimes wonder if I should submit my DNA.

As a side note, wearing long Johns was a common thing back then. My grandfather never got used to the cold weather vs the eternal spring climate he grew up with. He wore long Johns till the end of his days. And I remember that if for some reason there were no clean and dry long Johns, a pajamas would do the trick. I suspect that was the case with our John Doe.

MOO JMOO

Thank you for your recollections. I've never felt this guy was a criminal or a wannabe criminal. I see this poor man as a person who lost his life through misadventure, not because he was involved in criminal activities. Even the choice of currency he had on his person suggests someone who went to a bank to get foreign currency for his trip. They don't usually give out ones and fives in foreign banks, you get some of the larger denominations. Inflation calculations peg $50 in 1970 as being $365 in today's currency so he was actually carrying quite a bit of cash.

When my husband and I traveled back in the day we rarely bought travellers cheques, we relied on good old cash. If you go off the beaten path, storekeepers, restaurants and other small business viewed travellers cheques with mistrust. If you stayed in international hotels and well known restaurants in areas lots of tourists tended to be, you'd be okay with a TC. There's nothing nefarious with him having that cash on his person, IMO.

Totally OT, but about 20 years ago I was in the Eaton Centre in Toronto where I lived. I was in a well known bookstore where I overheard a conversation between a gentlemen who apparently was from South America trying to buy a big glossy photography book of places in Canada, I guess as a souvenir. It was horrible to see him take out Canadian Tire money to pay for the book. The poor clerk had a hard time explaining to him that Canadian Tire money wasn't legal tender in Canada, that it was the equivilent of coupons issued by a retail store to get you to come back in and spend some more money. He had hundreds of dollars worth of this fake 'money' that he'd bought off some guy in his home country who gave him a much better 'rate' than the bank. His face was ashen and he looked terrified realizing he'd been scammed and was penniless in a foreign country.

 

[PatLaurel]

Thank you for your recollections. I've never felt this guy was a criminal or a wannabe criminal. I see this poor man as a person who lost his life through misadventure, not because he was involved in criminal activities. Even the choice of currency he had on his person suggests someone who went to a bank to get foreign currency for his trip. They don't usually give out ones and fives in foreign banks, you get some of the larger denominations. Inflation calculations peg $50 in 1970 as being $365 in today's currency so he was actually carrying quite a bit of cash.

When my husband and I traveled back in the day we rarely bought travellers cheques, we relied on good old cash. If you go off the beaten path, storekeepers, restaurants and other small business viewed travellers cheques with mistrust. If you stayed in international hotels and well known restaurants in areas lots of tourists tended to be, you'd be okay with a TC. There's nothing nefarious with him having that cash on his person, IMO.

Totally OT, but about 20 years ago I was in the Eaton Centre in Toronto where I lived. I was in a well known bookstore where I overheard a conversation between a gentlemen who apparently was from South America trying to buy a big glossy photography book of places in Canada, I guess as a souvenir. It was horrible to see him take out Canadian Tire money to pay for the book. The poor clerk had a hard time explaining to him that Canadian Tire money wasn't legal tender in Canada, that it was the equivilent of coupons issued by a retail store to get you to come back in and spend some more money. He had hundreds of dollars worth of this fake 'money' that he'd bought off some guy in his home country who gave him a much better 'rate' than the bank. His face was ashen and he looked terrified realizing he'd been scammed and was penniless in a foreign country.

BBM

I actually think otherwise.
The fact that there was no blood where he was found, suggesting that he was killed elsewhere, and the fact that money and valuables were left behind, points to a targeted killing and not a robbery gone wrong. To shut him up maybe?!

I keep going back to Joe Barboza... his crimes, then turning an FBI informant in the late 60s. Portuguese Joe Barboza was a Sicilian wannabe, a hitman for the Patriarca family who turned snitch. The Persico Family owned a farm not far from where our JD was found... was he murdered there? Four bullets to the back of the head sounds like a gangster style execution. MOO

Here's something that could explain the "hodgepodge" of international brands:

"The Barboza saga just got worse and worse before his death. In 1970, sent to Santa Rosa in witness protection, he met a small-time crook named Clay Wilson, who told him about money and valuables he’d stolen during burglaries. Barboza wanted part of the spoils and argued with Wilson. While walking in the country with Wilson and two women, Barboza shot and murdered Wilson, then put his body under a tree stump. He scared the women into not talking about it."

Joe “The Animal” Barboza: No. 4 on list of Top 5 most notorious Mob hitmen

Not saying our JD was a crook, but the black market could explain the expensive watch, the ring and why the "wardrobe was a hodgepodge of international trade".
Up until the early 90s it was common to see people standing on a street corner selling stolen items... from watches to jewelry, clothes, cameras and car radios. Brand new stolen from cargo ships, trucks and planes or second hand, stolen from tourists, parked cars, etc.

MOO JMOO

 

[branmuffin]

BBM

I actually think otherwise.
The fact that there was no blood where he was found, suggesting that he was killed elsewhere, and the fact that money and valuables were left behind, points to a targeted killing and not a robbery gone wrong. To shut him up maybe?!

I keep going back to Joe Barboza... his crimes, then turning an FBI informant in the late 60s. Portuguese Joe Barboza was a Sicilian wannabe, a hitman for the Patriarca family who turned snitch. The Persico Family owned a farm not far from where our JD was found... was he murdered there? Four bullets to the back of the head sounds like a gangster style execution. MOO

Here's something that could explain the "hodgepodge" of international brands:

"The Barboza saga just got worse and worse before his death. In 1970, sent to Santa Rosa in witness protection, he met a small-time crook named Clay Wilson, who told him about money and valuables he’d stolen during burglaries. Barboza wanted part of the spoils and argued with Wilson. While walking in the country with Wilson and two women, Barboza shot and murdered Wilson, then put his body under a tree stump. He scared the women into not talking about it."

Joe “The Animal” Barboza: No. 4 on list of Top 5 most notorious Mob hitmen

Not saying our JD was a crook, but the black market could explain the expensive watch, the ring and why the "wardrobe was a hodgepodge of international trade".
Up until the early 90s it was common to see people standing on a street corner selling stolen items... from watches to jewelry, clothes, cameras and car radios. Brand new stolen from cargo ships, trucks and planes or second hand, stolen from tourists, parked cars, etc.

MOO JMOO

Oh, I agree it's possible he was killed elsewhere and his body dumped where he was found. The bullets that killed him were small calibre. All of them were still in his brain. Nice neat holes without any exit wounds. I wonder if he was sitting in the front seat of a vehicle when he was shot.

These days it's not unusual for people to be wearing a 'hodgepodge' of clothing items: t-shirt from Vietnam, jacket from China, jeans from Bangladesh, scarf from Italy, shoes from Israel. Sometimes on WS clothing becomes a red herring as to the country origins of the UID. Having a variety of different sourced clothing doesn't mean someone's shopped in those countries or got the items from a used clothing store.

I have no idea if Canada exported galoshes; I would think back in the early 70s Canada wasn't really exporting clothing and shoes to other countries.

I would really like this guy to be indentified. Enough time has passed that if there are crime scene photos of the deceased who apparently was quite recognizable I don't know why they wouldn't produce an image of him. It's always a mystery to me why some UID's post mortem photos are released to the public when they are recognizable and others have numerous sketches made by various artists over the years and none of them look even remotely alike.

 

[adriaticnyc]

@branmuffin, you wrote:

"What does make sense to me is that perhaps this fellow was not a native of the country, that he had just recently arrived. So many of his belongings hint at Portugal, maybe even Brazil, even the bullets that killed him were manufactured in Brazil and Brazil is steeped in Portuguese culture. His international clothing might suggest that he visited several countries not as a tourist but perhaps as a temporary visitor like a fisherman. His galoshes were made in Canada. Lots of Portuguese fishermen used to visit Canada during their bi-annual fishing of the Grand Banks. Here is an article regarding a documentary that was made in 1967 of a whole fleet of ships that came from Portugal."

Gil Leite's grandfather came to the USA where he settled in Fall River, owning a small shop. Perhaps surviving extended family members from MA would have better insight. The Azorean community is very tight knit and whether the fellow was taken to NY/NJ/RI/MA hidden in a Safe House, he stayed under the radar for nearly 14 months until discovered in Ulster County NY.

My impression from deep young lady "coming of age" conversations with a traumatized, abandoned wife during the 1975-1994? Was that Gil stayed low. I was not privy to all details, but Mrs. Leite confided in me. My heart breaks for the young woman....the Daughter left behind. So many unanswered questions. Observing her mother fuss at times with father who disappeared.

Both Mrs. Leite and daughter were gracious to me during that period of time. I was "received" into both homes with warmth. DNA testing would confirm, especially a DNA swab test such as the PGx genetic test.

And also US Customs Border for entry and re-entry.

 

[PatLaurel]

*Silly question alert*: Any idea why the computer generated image depicts our JD in a red shirt and not a white shirt like the one he was found wearing?
I apologize if this has been asked and answered already...

MOO JMOO

 

[adriaticnyc]

Answer to Silly question alert - No question is silly.
Perhaps the shirt color was based on information provided to Bloomfield CT's detectives based on the missing person report's photos.

If our JD was Gil Leite, it is very probable he was living "under the radar" from disappearing in December 1969 until January 1970 in a very cold, snowy part of the upper Hudson Valley in New York.

He would have been wearing different clothing, especially if the Ulster County remains were dressed in layers. The victim was hastily dressed. Dark green fabric was somewhat fashionable circa 1969-1972 for menswear, especially a suit.

 

[PatLaurel]

Answer to Silly question alert - No question is silly.
Perhaps the shirt color was based on information provided to Bloomfield CT's detectives based on the missing person report's photos.

RSBM

I meant the Saugerties John Doe. If he was found wearing a suit, a white dress shirt and a neck tie why depict him in a red casual shirt? Wouldn't that make it more difficult (or less easy) to identify him? Isn't it supposed to give as much detail as possible?
Most of the UIP renderings depict exactly what the victims were wearing and/or found with...
There are photos of our JD, his personal items and clothes. Why depict him in a red casual shirt? It makes me wonder if it was intentional? I just don't get it...

MOO JMOO

 

[Oakie]

I can't access the NYT article. Paywall.

'....There were signs of modest means. His shoes were imitation leather. A hole in his underwear had been mended with a needle and thread.

The wardrobe was a hodgepodge of international trade. The tag on one shirt was marked “Hering,” from Brazil; another, “Rimrock” from Taiwan. The galoshes were from Canada, his underwear from Korea and his tie from Playboy Neckwear.

“For Men Who Think Young,” the label on the tie read.

He had a plastic comb, a toothpick and, pinned inside a coat pocket, a small key. His most valuable possessions were a gold ring with a red stone and markings indicating that it had been made in Portugal, and, on his left wrist, an Omega Seamaster watch.

Omega, based in Switzerland, made the watch that Neil Armstrong had worn on the moon about six months earlier, and the one President Kennedy wore at his inauguration eight years before that. Investigators contacted Omega, and the company was able to track the man’s watch from its manufacture to the store it was shipped to in 1960 — Portugal again.

The bullets that killed the man had lodged in his head. They were small, from a .25-caliber pistol, and resembled those produced by the ammunition maker Companhia Brasileira de Cartuchos, based in Brazil.'

'...There were letters and numbers jotted under the collar of his dress shirt: the markings of a dry cleaner. Investigators showed them to cleaners in New York City, with no results.

They wondered about the pajamas.

“One theory could be he was home sleeping, he was confronted by some individual at his home and made to throw a suit on, and ‘come with us’ type of deal,” Investigator Browne said.

But if that was the case, had the man been allowed to shave first? And tie a necktie and pull on galoshes and pick up a toothpick and comb and cash? These are not the acts of a man in a hurry with a gun pointed at him.

Investigators have another theory about the pajamas: The man had dressed in layers because he was cold — very cold, if he was new to New York from a warmer country. Like, say, Portugal or Brazil.

The year 1971 brought what seemed to be a tantalizing lead. An inmate at Green Haven Correctional Facility in Stormville, N.Y., came forward and said he had information about the death.'

'...The inmate, Edward Sullivan, 42, was serving a sentence for manslaughter after being convicted in Queens. He told investigators that he had overheard other inmates in a prison yard describe how three men with the Mafia had killed a narcotics courier of Italian or Cuban descent, placed him in a trunk and dumped him down an embankment, according to notes in the case file.

Mr. Sullivan said the three men were Alphonse (Allie Boy) Persico, whose brother, Carmine, was a boss in the Colombo crime family, and two associates, Jerry Langella and Hugh Macintosh, who went by the nickname Apples. The Persico family owned a farm in Saugerties not far from where the body was found.

Investigators noted in 1971 that Mr. Sullivan had testified in three murder trials in the past, suggesting that perhaps he was prone to sharing jailhouse tips in hopes of currying favor.

Over the years, all three men in Mr. Sullivan’s statement were arrested on unrelated charges, and all three were questioned about the body. All denied any knowledge of the man. At least one of them may have been incarcerated at the time of the killing. All have since died, as has the inmate who spoke their names.

The Persicos have sold off most of the property on the farm, a family lawyer, Mathew J. Mari, said.

“No one in the family ever heard of it,” Mr. Mari said last week about the killing. The 89-year-old caretaker of the property, Joe Trunk, greeted a reporter last week and said he had been working there in 1970, and had likewise never heard about the body.'

A Case So Cold the Dead Man Wore Pajamas Under His Suit (Published 2016)

 

[Keiri]

I had another thought. The dry cleaning marks mayyy disprove it, but what if he was wearing everything he needed for a short trip on him so he didn’t have to bring luggage? Maybe an overnight?

 

[carbuff]

RSBM

I meant the Saugerties John Doe. If he was found wearing a suit, a white dress shirt and a neck tie why depict him in a red casual shirt? Wouldn't that make it more difficult (or less easy) to identify him? Isn't it supposed to give as much detail as possible?
Most of the UIP renderings depict exactly what the victims were wearing and/or found with...
There are photos of our JD, his personal items and clothes. Why depict him in a red casual shirt? It makes me wonder if it was intentional? I just don't get it...

MOO JMOO

Sometimes they're trying to depict what they think the person looked like in life rather than at death, so people who might have known him under other circumstances might recognize him.