NY NY - Sylvia Lwowski, 22, Staten Island, 6 Sept 1975 - #4

[alliemay]

There appeared to me to be an earlier denial on previous threads that Father's behavior at pool party was relevant to SL's disappearance, to her possible depression, to her possible problems with BF/F. IMOO, a denial of alcoholism or a lessening of the impact alcoholism may have had upon the family members, to SL's depression, was evident. That is my opinion only.

IMO, that was a common stance of those from my generation (Drinking heavily was not a big deal.). We now know it can be. Hell, it is. It impacts the family members. Sorry...my Father had mistaken my engagement ring for a beer tab>that's not gonna be swept over.

IF there may have been issues re alcoholism, who knows what prohibitions might have existed towards discussion of mental illness, depression or suicide.

This is my opinion also. Acceptance is a hard pill to swallow and even harder to talk about with strangers. The reason we are all on here though, is not to judge, but to help. We have all been though some things in our own lives which makes us capable to relate to family problems. Knowing my grandfather lost two small children to childhood illness helped me to understand why he dove into the bottle to wash away the pain. It did not mean this was ok to do but it helped me understand the why. If JL did have a problem, I could understand, he lost his entire family in a county he once called home. If anything I feel more empathy for this family by knowing more facts.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

This is my opinion also. Acceptance is a hard pill to swallow and even harder to talk about with strangers. The reason we are all on here though, is not to judge, but to help. We have all been though some things in our own lives which makes us capable to relate to family problems. Knowing my grandfather lost two small children to childhood illness helped me to understand why he dove into the bottle to wash away the pain. It did not mean this was ok to do but it helped me understand the why. If JL did have a problem, I could understand, he lost his entire family in a county he once called home. If anything I feel more empathy for this family by knowing more facts.

Hiya, Skeet

BBM1: I agree with this, but I think there's a fine line to walk here that is actually quite caught up with the illness -- call it, "dancing around the elephant in the room." I can't speak for Epiphany, of course, but IMO, recognizing denial is not the same as judging it. The way I see it, denial is not so much a "personality flaw" or thing a family does "wrong" as it is a coping strategy -- as well as the accidental result of learning to define "normal" based on what you see every day -- when what you see is anything but normal.

JMO, but the problem for people -- on both the inside and outside -- is that if you don't unmask denial, it's hard to see what's going on. I think Epiphany makes a good point. After all, we know that SL's relationship with her father suffered in the week before she disappeared. His tendency to imbibe has been validated by SL's BFF. And he exhibited unusual behavior where SL was concerned on at least two occasions that we know of. I don't think it's a stretch to wonder what else went on that we are not privy to.

Even if that's as troubling as it gets, if SL lived in a house where a family member drank heavily (another possible explanation for a general family strategy of "no publicity," IMO), then chances are that at 22 she hadn't learned how to deal with her feelings directly or in a healthy manner. IOW, problems must result. It could create a baseline for a more acute depression resulting, say, from the abortion.

Along the same lines, I see a family for which "silence" is a significant part of the script, and a young girl who's normal emotional reactivity may run somewhat high (did she share this trait with her father?). What happens to a young girl whose insides are like a fireworks display when she can't share it or get it out? To my eye, these are all potential contributing factors to depression and possible suicide. We don't know enough, but it's a realistic possibility. MOO

BBM2: Boy, do I see myself in your POV, Skeet. I so get that.

BBM3: Am I forgetting this huge piece of info, or are you mixing up JL and EL's background? I know ASWDH said EL lost her entire family in the war. But I thought JL's was alive and well and living in NJ? I do remember he lost his mother at some early point and cared for siblings prior to enlistment ...

 

[GoingByMyGut]

IMO: L'wren's is a very Shakespearean suicide... It's not the first time she thought about it. And, it was very well orchestrated. ...Planned for some time... IMO

BBMs: If this is true, it is even more tragic, IMO. To me it says that even in this final impossible-to-fathom act of desperation, she couldn't forget the eyes on her, and that those eyes mattered more to her than her own. Very sad.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

The environment, the geography of SI circa 1975. Less built up, developed, than other boroughs. She could be there, and never found.

Yes, that is upsetting, especially in combination with the knowledge that many, many criminals were aware of it's isolation and used it to advantage.

 

[rosemadderlake]

There appeared to me to be an earlier denial on previous threads that Father's behavior at pool party was relevant to SL's disappearance, to her possible depression, to her possible problems with BF/F. IMOO, a denial of alcoholism or a lessening of the impact alcoholism may have had upon the family members, to SL's depression, was evident. That is my opinion only.

IMO, that was a common stance of those from my generation (Drinking heavily was not a big deal.). We now know it can be. Hell, it is. It impacts the family members. Sorry...my Father had mistaken my engagement ring for a beer tab>that's not gonna be swept over.

IF there may have been issues re alcoholism, who knows what prohibitions might have existed towards discussion of mental illness, depression or suicide.

bbms: Interesting that we are here into thread #4, one year later, and just now bringing these possibilities to the surface...

The 70's was such a free-wheeling, lush life, party-central kind of decade. You had to be on the Bowery to be an alcoholic - everyone else was "ok". Thank goodness "therapy" and "recovery" followed in the next decade or so in a much more collective way. People became educated about it, found words to describe it, found their humanity in their "character defects", or understood the self destruction of their loved ones better and found new choices in their lives... Now, there is rehab for just about everything... But back then maybe "shame" was the prohibition that silenced people...

Suicide remains a kind of shocking enigma though. Apart from those who are "known to be suicidal, have a history of attempts", one thing the news event this week has shown me is that rarely, very rarely, can one predict a suicide. It is a choice that I think remains a mystery by nature to all those left behind...

Imo: the feelings of guilt, shame, remorse, and a broken heart make it nearly impossible to comprehend...

 

[rosemadderlake]

BBMs: If this is true, it is even more tragic, IMO. To me it says that even in this final impossible-to-fathom act of desperation, she couldn't forget the eyes on her, and that those eyes mattered more to her than her own. Very sad.

OT on the news event this week-

Bbm: right down to the last detail in texting her assistant to "come by" that morning - she ensured she would still remain beautiful in the afterlife, at the wake... imo.

 

[Odyssey]

I'm not aware of relevance of anyone named Donovan in this case. Is there any reason to think there might be?

I was more wondering if he's ever been contacted because I think he could have relevance. It just seems that he's a bit more proactive than others we know of, and I wonder if he's ever heard of this case.

I can't recall who ASW was in contact with but the name Donovan isn't ringing a bell.

 

[alliemay]

Hiya, Skeet

BBM1: I agree with this, but I think there's a fine line to walk here that is actually quite caught up with the illness -- call it, "dancing around the elephant in the room." I can't speak for Epiphany, of course, but IMO, recognizing denial is not the same as judging it. The way I see it, denial is not so much a "personality flaw" or thing a family does "wrong" as it is a coping strategy -- as well as the accidental result of learning to define "normal" based on what you see every day -- when what you see is anything but normal.

JMO, but the problem for people -- on both the inside and outside -- is that if you don't unmask denial, it's hard to see what's going on. I think Epiphany makes a good point. After all, we know that SL's relationship with her father suffered in the week before she disappeared. His tendency to imbibe has been validated by SL's BFF. And he exhibited unusual behavior where SL was concerned on at least two occasions that we know of. I don't think it's a stretch to wonder what else went on that we are not privy to.

Even if that's as troubling as it gets, if SL lived in a house where a family member drank heavily (another possible explanation for a general family strategy of "no publicity," IMO), then chances are that at 22 she hadn't learned how to deal with her feelings directly or in a healthy manner. IOW, problems must result. It could create a baseline for a more acute depression resulting, say, from the abortion.

Along the same lines, I see a family for which "silence" is a significant part of the script, and a young girl who's normal emotional reactivity may run somewhat high (did she share this trait with her father?). What happens to a young girl whose insides are like a fireworks display when she can't share it or get it out? To my eye, these are all potential contributing factors to depression and possible suicide. We don't know enough, but it's a realistic possibility. MOO

BBM2: Boy, do I see myself in your POV, Skeet. I so get that.

BBM3: Am I forgetting this huge piece of info, or are you mixing up JL and EL's background? I know ASWDH said EL lost her entire family in the war. But I thought JL's was alive and well and living in NJ? I do remember he lost his mother at some early point and cared for siblings prior to enlistment ...

Your BBM1: Just in case JL came on here to read anything I wanted him to know that even though we are discussing this kind of thing, that we are just here to help.

Your BBM3: I think I was mistaken in my thinking that JL had lost his family, I think you are right it was EL. Still with that said it makes me wonder what JL's life was like in Germany, both EL and JL came from Germany where it was a different then it was growing up in the United States.

 

[rosemadderlake]

And no one saw, noted, her (L'W's) underlying depression?

We'll see about that...

Bbm: I think maybe some saw that Wren was depressed but no one saw a suicide coming...

For Sylvia, I wonder more about the cracks in the psyche (of a young person) that may have been happening. Would anyone see a suicide coming?

Without many facts that might point to a motive in her fiance, I found it much easier to think that someone with her accomplishments and beauty would be strong and fly the coop if she had to.

But then, in thinking about the silence surrounding her for all these years I wonder if suicide was the "unthinkable" piece that those who knew and loved her feared, and wondered about the most.

 

[Jmoose]

I was more wondering if he's ever been contacted because I think he could have relevance. It just seems that he's a bit more proactive than others we know of, and I wonder if he's ever heard of this case.

I can't recall who ASW was in contact with but the name Donovan isn't ringing a bell.

No, I believe that ASW was in touch with Det. Savage. I wonder if this Donovan could be of some assistance now? Wasn't the Scivetti case one where she was killed by her abusive boyfriend? And isn't he suspected in another case as well?

 

[Jmoose]

Bbm: I think maybe some saw that Wren was depressed but no one saw a suicide coming...

For Sylvia, I wonder more about the cracks in the psyche (of a young person) that may have been happening. Would anyone see a suicide coming?

Without many facts that might point to a motive in her fiance, I found it much easier to think that someone with her accomplishments and beauty would be strong and fly the coop if she had to.

But then, in thinking about the silence surrounding her for all these years I wonder if suicide was the "unthinkable" piece that those who knew and loved her feared, and wondered about the most.

I really think that suicide is completely off the radar for most people; it's so unthinkable, and so against the human nature of a "normal" person that it is easily dismissed as a possible option when someone goes missing. Nobody wants to think that someone they love would do such a thing. So...we can speculate that EL ranked the possibilities from most likely to least likely in this way: 1) she left town and was still alive 2) she committed suicide 3) she was killed by someone. I ranked it in this way because she indicated that she thought MMQC knew her whereabouts, and also because she didn't pressure the police for help in finding her killer, so it must have been a remote possibility for her, IMO.

Both of the VIs may be in denial, but since we don't have much at all in the way of information here, I have to rely on what they've said for my own opinion-both have said that they don't think that she committed suicide (but I wonder if the notion ever occurred to either of them independently of our discussion of it?)

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Your BBM3: I think I was mistaken in my thinking that JL had lost his family, I think you are right it was EL. Still with that said it makes me wonder what JL's life was like in Germany, both EL and JL came from Germany where it was a different then it was growing up in the United States.

Correct me if I am wrong, but this is what I have on JL, Sr. (if I'm looking at the right info, he may actually be Jr., with SL's brother being the III), all from Ancestry.com:

• Born, NYC (possibly Queens), 11 Sept. 1914
• Both parents were from Poland
• Grew up in Elizabeth, NJ (1930 census), later lived in Union (time of enlistment)
• Died, 11 Jan. 1993
• He was one of eight siblings
• He lived in Germany while serving in the Army during WWII, enlisting in 1942 and returning in 1962

Is this what everyone else has?

 

[Jmoose]

Hi!

Just popping in to say hi. I read all the unread posts in thread 3, and thought I was caught up until I went to post.. then I realized I still have this whole thread to read!

I'll try to get caught up tomorrow.

I can't remember if this had ever been mentioned before, but does the name Donovan ring a bell to anyone?

I came across this article (another Staten Island case) and found this interesting:

BBM:

"There's not a day goes by that I don't think of my sister. It has affected generations of my family, from my mother to my children. How could it not?" says Angel DeRuvo, Ms. Scivetti's sister, whose persistence over the past 14 years has spurred investigators to keep plugging.

Donovan says Ms. DeRuvo approached him when he first ran for the district attorney seat in 2003, and he has kept the case an active investigation ever since. "We're poring over everything now, and we have not given up hope," he says.

http://www.silive.com/news/index.ssf/2012/09/new_clues_in_haunting_mystery.html

There is contact information for Donovan in the article. I apologize if this has been brought up before, it's hard for me to keep track of it all.

I'll try to get caught up on this thread tomorrow... so glad to see you all still here plugging away!

Maybe Donovan would be interested in this case, if he isn't already up to speed (I think he might be). There seems to be some interest in a lot of these old, cold cases. I just recently read that the authorities in upstate Elmira New York are looking again at the murder of a girl in the 1960s. Sylvia has to be found first, though. Where could she be-the ocean?

 

[Odyssey]

No, I believe that ASW was in touch with Det. Savage. I wonder if this Donovan could be of some assistance now? Wasn't the Scivetti case one where she was killed by her abusive boyfriend? And isn't he suspected in another case as well?

Yes, that is what is suspected. And yes, he is also suspected in the case of Elizabeth Bump, a woman who was seeing him while he was married to someone else. (I don't recall if Scivetti was an extramarital affair as well). And it's similar in that this guy won't talk either.

 

[Jmoose]

Correct me if I am wrong, but this is what I have on JL, Sr. (if I'm looking at the right info, he may actually be Jr., with SL's brother being the III), all from Ancestry.com:

• Born, NYC (possibly Queens), 11 Sept. 1914
• Both parents were from Poland
• Grew up in Elizabeth, NJ (1930 census), later lived in Union (time of enlistment)
• Died, 11 Jan. 1993
• He was one of eight siblings
• He lived in Germany while serving in the Army during WWII, enlisting in 1942 and returning in 1962

Is this what everyone else has?

Yes-this is what I found, too.

 

[Odyssey]

Maybe Donovan would be interested in this case, if he isn't already up to speed (I think he might be). There seems to be some interest in a lot of these old, cold cases. I just recently read that the authorities in upstate Elmira New York are looking again at the murder of a girl in the 1960s. Sylvia has to be found first, though. Where could she be-the ocean?

I honestly doubt the ocean... just because I can't see him being able to do that by himself, if you think of a beach and you try to put something in the ocean, the waves/tide will just bring it back. You'd have to get out kind of far and have something to weigh down with. I just don't think it's as easy as it sounds. JMHO.

My biggest fear is somewhere on Staten Island that is now built over.... or the landfill.

I don't think it could hurt to try contacting him. I just want to think how to word it so that if it gets forwarded to Savage (I think he is in the same office, correct me if I'm wrong) it doesn't come across like I'm trying to step on his toes.

 

[rosemadderlake]

Your BBM1: Just in case JL came on here to read anything I wanted him to know that even though we are discussing this kind of thing, that we are just here to help.

Your BBM3: I think I was mistaken in my thinking that JL had lost his family, I think you are right it was EL. Still with that said it makes me wonder what JL's life was like in Germany, both EL and JL came from Germany where it was a different then it was growing up in the United States.

bbm--Wonder about this part too. Post WWII Germany in the 50's could not have been easy, psychically or visually, even with life protected on a military base. In thinking about the legacy and burden on the survivors, like EL, back then there was not as much collective awareness about the details of the Holocaust, here in U.S., as there is today. Survivors bore the burden in silence. I knew this history from my Jewish uncle and cousin. I don't think it was until the late 60's - 70's that there was a cultural recognition of Germany breaking through the past and moving forward. Now, Berlin is an Art capital - a hub, the place to be...

Imo: Sylvia's early childhood in Germany may well hold some clues about her disappearance.

 

[Jmoose]

Odyssey-one site has Ms. Scivetti as a medication-dependent manic depressive, and yet her boyfriend is considered a suspect in her disappearance. Interestingly, we have no knowlege of Sylvia Lwowski being clinically depressed, and yet foul play seems to be off the table for LE. Is it just that in each case, they are looking at the last one to see each of them, and making their assessment of the likelihood of foul play on that basis?

 

[Jmoose]

I honestly doubt the ocean... just because I can't see him being able to do that by himself, if you think of a beach and you try to put something in the ocean, the waves/tide will just bring it back. You'd have to get out kind of far and have something to weigh down with. I just don't think it's as easy as it sounds. JMHO.

My biggest fear is somewhere on Staten Island that is now built over.... or the landfill.

I don't think it could hurt to try contacting him. I just want to think how to word it so that if it gets forwarded to Savage (I think he is in the same office, correct me if I'm wrong) it doesn't come across like I'm trying to step on his toes.

Det. Savage is in the DA's office and this is why I think Donovan is already up to speed. Do we care if we step on Det. Savage's toes? I think the worst case scenario is that Donovan already knows about Sylvia and doesn't have anything on which to hang his hat (yet).

 

[Jmoose]

I honestly doubt the ocean... just because I can't see him being able to do that by himself, if you think of a beach and you try to put something in the ocean, the waves/tide will just bring it back. You'd have to get out kind of far and have something to weigh down with. I just don't think it's as easy as it sounds. JMHO.

My biggest fear is somewhere on Staten Island that is now built over.... or the landfill.

I don't think it could hurt to try contacting him. I just want to think how to word it so that if it gets forwarded to Savage (I think he is in the same office, correct me if I'm wrong) it doesn't come across like I'm trying to step on his toes.

Some detective (somewhere) speculated upon my question about suicide in Sylvia's case that she could have jumped off a bridge-some times they find the body, and sometimes they don't. It seems like they always do when they know that someone's jumped-the body almost always turns up. I wouldn't bet my own money that she did this-but I might bet somebody else's.