NY NY - Sylvia Lwowski, 22, Staten Island, 6 Sept 1975 - #4

[Jmoose]

I've spent the entire weekend reading all four threads on Sylvia and all I can say is wow.

In my opinion it seems like such an open and shut case. I have no understanding of how a young woman with so much to live for could just disappear and the police do nothing at the time! Well, nothing resulting in evidence, locations, etc. I don't get it.

The WS's are these threads are impressive. High-fives to all.

I'll be thinking of various avenues and hopefully I will have something to contribute after absorbing all the info I learned after reading each and every post about Sylvia.

Hi PepperP-Welcome to Sylvia's thread! In all fairness to the police, they didn't tend to look for adults who they believe are voluntarily missing, with no physical evidence of anything else. With the passage of almost 39 years, it does appear that there's also no evidence that she ran away, either.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

I've spent the entire weekend reading all four threads on Sylvia and all I can say is wow.

In my opinion it seems like such an open and shut case. I have no understanding of how a young woman with so much to live for could just disappear and the police do nothing at the time! Well, nothing resulting in evidence, locations, etc. I don't get it.

The WS's are these threads are impressive. High-fives to all.

I'll be thinking of various avenues and hopefully I will have something to contribute after absorbing all the info I learned after reading each and every post about Sylvia.

Hi, PepperP That's a lot of reading! I'm glad it got you interested in Sylvia. The BBM is the mystery in a nutshell. Your thoughts are welcome, when you're ready.

 

[alliemay]

Bumping up for Sylvia.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

40-YO Florida cold case solved. The Florida's girl's bones were found 6 mos. after she disappeared, but not ID'd for 40 years.

 

[Jmoose]

40-YO Florida cold case solved. The Florida's girl's bones were found 6 mos. after she disappeared, but not ID'd for 40 years.

I'm sure this is how it goes for so many of the missing people here.

 

[Jmoose]

I just re-read the SI Advance article from last September and started wondering about Sylvia's brother's comment that the PI the family hired didn't find anything. Maybe the PI didn't find anything because he was looking for evidence that she booked on her own, but she didn't? No ticket clerk would have seen her, etc. I always assumed that the PI looked at everything (or that he was incompetent or took the Lwowskis' money and didn't do anything), but maybe his focus was the same as that of the police, and he didn't consider anything else (I guess he did talk to the fiance, though-but I wonder what the focus of that conversation was).
I'm in the process of reading "The Skeleton Crew" at the moment, and it's got some interesting subtexts- one member of LE commented about the difficulty in identifying remains which have been taken to a place which is not known to be associated with a missing person. As all of us here know, that's been a facter in so many cases. It's really remarkable how easy it is to miss a connection between remains and missing people. I wonder if, in the days before DNA analysis, Sylvia's remains could have been misidentified as some other missing person, if they might have been found outside of the Metro NY area?

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Had a thought about the PI-but having some trouble posting (my husband says "high probability user error)

I don't know ... the site looks a lot different. It's been through an "upgrade." Not a fan of change myself, but maybe you were trying to post while it was still in flux?

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Maybe the PI didn't find anything because he was looking for evidence that she booked on her own, but she didn't? No ticket clerk would have seen her, etc. I always assumed that the PI looked at everything (or that he was incompetent or took the Lwowskis' money and didn't do anything)In "The Skeleton Crew" one member of LE commented about the difficulty in identifying remains which have been taken to a place which is not known to be associated with a missing person-wonder if, in the days before DNA analysis, her remains could have been misidentified as some other missing person?

BBM1: I think the PI probably had very limited working orders ... who could afford to give a PI free run? They work by the hour, right? The story of the PI following MMQC fits with this thory, but I think it was just logical to look at her and the BF/F, regardless of the assumption for her being missing. JMO

BBM2: I find this theory much more interesting. What a cluster-F that would be! In my gut, I feel she's not been found, but I have nothing factual to base that on.

 

[Jmoose]

It seems likely to me that the PI only considered the "runaway" possibility, because of limited funds (and the notions in those days that young people would do such a thing). So from that standpoint, it's not significant to me that the PI found nothing.

I also tend to agree that she's unlikely to have been already found, but my mind started wandering here, and I imagined that it would hopelessly confound everyone, if her remains had been misidentified and subsequently buried in some potter's field somewhere.

Incidentally, I just read about a girl who disappeared in the '70s, who was found alive and well fairly recently-seems she and her family had some problems, and she just wanted to get away from them and live her life. The difference in her case is that they were able to find her after a while-and so there must have been some evidence that she was out there.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

It seems likely to me that the PI only considered the "runaway" possibility, because of limited funds (and the notions in those days that young people would do such a thing). So from that standpoint, it's not significant to me that the PI found nothing.

I also tend to agree that she's unlikely to have been already found, but my mind started wandering here, and I imagined that it would hopelessly confound everyone, if her remains had been misidentified and subsequently buried in some potter's field somewhere.

Incidentally, I just read about a girl who disappeared in the '70s, who was found alive and well fairly recently-seems she and her family had some problems, and she just wanted to get away from them and live her life. The difference in her case is that they were able to find her after a while-and so there must have been some evidence that she was out there.

BBM1: I see your point. I was thinking that those "working orders" only make sense if the family suspected something -- something specific -- whereas my sense is that the family was blindsided. Of course, "running away" could have been the only thing that made "sense" to them at the time, not wanting to think the worst. Since we have so little to go on, I was putting myself in their shoes and thinking I would not have wanted to limit what the PI found. Maybe they limited him/her based on hours or a total dollar amount? In the case of the L's, they may have thought they only needed a lead to give LE or to work on themselves ...

Also, if the PI was told SL was a runaway, wouldn't he/she have talked to MMQC -- her best friend? It seems to me (based on the trivial "three different stories" tale we heard) that the PI spoke to LE and the BF/F. Why only "follow" MMQC? I don't know that MMQC ever outright denied talking to the PI, but she only related to us that the PI followed her.

BBM2: Me neither.

BBM3: It sure would! -- regardless of where the mis-ID'd body was buried.

BBM4: I didn't see that one, but I think we've posted a few other stories like that here. It's def possible. We just have so little to go on.

 

[rosemadderlake]

Hi everyone -

Have not heard back from NamUs - sent another inquiry to Sylvia's case mgr. today... My thoughts are- if there is a potential match, perhaps I, (we @ WS) would not be the first to know about it (?)...

So, I am hanging back - seeing what happens - trying not to get all corporate "stress A" about it (lol!) and, checking in on Sylvia's thread -
If I hear anything I'll pass it along - and if anyone wants to contact NamUs please feel free to do so.

Good to see Sylvia's thread is still chiming!

-Hope you all are having a nice summer!
Rose

 

[Jmoose]

It's been 39 years; I guess a little wait won't hurt us. Mostly, I think we are just trying to conment in order to keep Sylvia's case up near the top, right?

I am wondering how the work at Hart Island is progressing? Seems like lately we've heard about a couple of people being disinterred to formally identify them. They have disinterred a bunch of remains, looking for Rebecca Alper, who was buried at Hart Island, and apparently lost there.

 

[rosemadderlake]

It's been 39 years; I guess a little wait won't hurt us. Mostly, I think we are just trying to conment in order to keep Sylvia's case up near the top, right?

I am wondering how the work at Hart Island is progressing? Seems like lately we've heard about a couple of people being disinterred to formally identify them. They have disinterred a bunch of remains, looking for Rebecca Alper, who was buried at Hart Island, and apparently lost there.

Bbm: Yes, at 39 years, time is abstract at this point. ...imo...

We have submitted five UIDs - So, we put it "out there". I told NamUs we were trying to keep Sylvia's case alive and that we have come to realize that she may indeed be a UID/UP, and for a very long time, too. I asked if we should go ahead and pursue ourselves. Not sure what the radio silence is about except that NamUs is busy, people are on vacation, and my first thought which is one of the UIDs is a potential match. What if that is true? Would we be told right away? Personally, I am hesitant to call and email the UID entities in case it has been initiated already by NamUs. So, I am hoping I'll get some response soon...

I read somewhere there are conservatively 40,000 UIDs and what, 100,000 MPs? Considering each case is unique, it seems overwhelming. Hart Island must be like an archeological job - and who is exhuming the bodies? Was the job assigned to the Dept of Corrections? I don't know, seems there are big margins for error, and to be sure would take time.

 

[Jmoose]

Once again, Rose, an intelligent and thoughtful post. I am not sure that we would be told right away, if, in fact, Sylvia is a match to one of the UIDs. I'd like to think that her brother would be notified right away, and that he would tell us in a timely way, but I have my doubts. I would certainly give NamUS plenty of time (yet another example of "patience is a virtue"), and I'm sure we'll eventually know if one of these poor souls is Sylvia-even if we have to go to each of their pages and read updated lists of rule-outs. I do feel impatient, though-it feels like an enormous amount of energy has been exerted here by all of us.

I must have read the same thing you did re: the number of UIDs-I thought that was an overwhelming number, and felt so sad for the people who have to deal with this professionally-it must affect them greatly. When I spoke to Det. Savage last year, he told me about a girl who was found murdered in Staten Island, who has remained unidentified for years-he appeared to be angry that no family member's looking for her. He indicated that this is the one that he wants to solve-I take a look at this every once in a while, to see if I can figure it out, but I think she may never have been reported missing. She has a distinctive scorpion tattoo on her backside, that she had to have gotten when you couldn't get tattooed in NYC-and before the time when women were all tattooed.

 

[Jmoose]

I think that, while we're waiting for any info on Sylvia, I am going to explore the identity of the woman with the scorpion on her bottom. She had a tattoo by the time she died in 1991-and, alrhough I am not up to speed on tattooing practices, I don't think it was ultra common then for women to have them (but I could be wrong about this). If that's the case, then who would have had one-and why a scorpion? In Muslim folklore, a scorpion can signify the dervish's mastery over evil-and it is also a metaphor for sexuality. Does this indicate that she may have been a prostitute? This might explain why nobody's looking for her-even though there is evidence that she wore braces at a younger age (sign that somebody cared about her at one time). Her family may not be from NY, may not know how she was living, or that she's been missing for 23 years. They may not know that she has a tattoo, either.

 

[alliemay]

A scorpion is also a sign of in the zodiac. Could represent her birth month.

 

[rosemadderlake]

Once again, Rose, an intelligent and thoughtful post. I am not sure that we would be told right away, if, in fact, Sylvia is a match to one of the UIDs. I'd like to think that her brother would be notified right away, and that he would tell us in a timely way, but I have my doubts. I would certainly give NamUS plenty of time (yet another example of "patience is a virtue"), and I'm sure we'll eventually know if one of these poor souls is Sylvia-even if we have to go to each of their pages and read updated lists of rule-outs. I do feel impatient, though-it feels like an enormous amount of energy has been exerted here by all of us.

I must have read the same thing you did re: the number of UIDs-I thought that was an overwhelming number, and felt so sad for the people who have to deal with this professionally-it must affect them greatly. When I spoke to Det. Savage last year, he told me about a girl who was found murdered in Staten Island, who has remained unidentified for years-he appeared to be angry that no family member's looking for her. He indicated that this is the one that he wants to solve-I take a look at this every once in a while, to see if I can figure it out, but I think she may never have been reported missing. She has a distinctive scorpion tattoo on her backside, that she had to have gotten when you couldn't get tattooed in NYC-and before the time when women were all tattooed.

Bbm: Thanks Jmoose. I do believe you were the first to mention this “patience is a virtue” thing back up a thread, or two. And yes, I think we have invested ourselves in Sylvia’s case & cause. Impatient because we care about her, and want to know what happened to her. What clues have not surfaced, in the week before she went missing? We know of some details, but I believe there is more there than meets the eye. Has she not been found, yet? Is she a long time UID waiting to be matched? Keeping her story alive and visible on the google searches will hopefully be read by someone who knows something, someday. -And will do the right thing.

In reading how the Heidi Balch mystery was solved, it revealed how important these cases are to some of these detectives, and the motivation to solve the long standing mysteries of the most difficult cases. …To bring closure. (imo) --And yes, how could they not be affected, like when someone (a match to a UID) may not ever have been reported missing… In a couple of our UID submissions, the reconstructions do show a resemblance to Sylvia. Depending on the circumstances, that may lead to other clues. I am sure CCS would run with it, too.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Bbm: Yes, at 39 years, time is abstract at this point. ...imo...

We have submitted five UIDs - So, we put it "out there". I told NamUs we were trying to keep Sylvia's case alive and that we have come to realize that she may indeed be a UID/UP, and for a very long time, too. I asked if we should go ahead and pursue ourselves. Not sure what the radio silence is about except that NamUs is busy, people are on vacation, and my first thought which is one of the UIDs is a potential match. What if that is true? Would we be told right away? Personally, I am hesitant to call and email the UID entities in case it has been initiated already by NamUs. So, I am hoping I'll get some response soon...

I read somewhere there are conservatively 40,000 UIDs and what, 100,000 MPs? Considering each case is unique, it seems overwhelming. Hart Island must be like an archeological job - and who is exhuming the bodies? Was the job assigned to the Dept of Corrections? I don't know, seems there are big margins for error, and to be sure would take time.

BBM1: Do you mean the silence in response to this specific question? I am not sure they would answer this question, mainly because they don't know us and it might be construed as taking some responsibility for our actions, legally -- endorsing our actions -- when they have no basis for it. You think? That doesn't mean we shouldn't do it. MOO

BBM2: I understand the hesitancy, just in terms of approaching an authority, but I see people doing this on other threads all the time. (And to your point, NamUS may be too busy to make all the possible connections themselves.) My sense is that less is more, in terms of communicating with the coroners, FWIW. I think they're just checking lists and looking at possibilities, so the faster/more streamlined and factual the communication, the better. Also, I would only submit after we've done thoughtful rule-outs, such as those based on her teeth. They're just going to look at that information themselves and come to the same conclusion, so why send them something that has points of logical elimination. Not that you would do otherwise -- I'm just sharing things that come to my mind as I think about firing off an email. JMHO.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

I think that, while we're waiting for any info on Sylvia, I am going to explore the identity of the woman with the scorpion on her bottom. She had a tattoo by the time she died in 1991-and, alrhough I am not up to speed on tattooing practices, I don't think it was ultra common then for women to have them (but I could be wrong about this). If that's the case, then who would have had one-and why a scorpion? In Muslim folklore, a scorpion can signify the dervish's mastery over evil-and it is also a metaphor for sexuality. Does this indicate that she may have been a prostitute? This might explain why nobody's looking for her-even though there is evidence that she wore braces at a younger age (sign that somebody cared about her at one time). Her family may not be from NY, may not know how she was living, or that she's been missing for 23 years. They may not know that she has a tattoo, either.

A scorpion is also a sign of in the zodiac. Could represent her birth month.

Good point, Skeet! I think it also suggests "I'm dangerous/deadly." The meaning may be very personal and hard to read. JMO

ETA: It didn't occur to me that tattooing may have been illegal at one time. I am guessing it was often done illegally? I think sign of the zodiac tattoos became popular with women (relatively speaking -- not to the degree that tattoos are now) as early as the 60s.

 

[Jmoose]

Good point, Skeet! I think it also suggests "I'm dangerous/deadly." The meaning may be very personal and hard to read. JMO

ETA: It didn't occur to me thatattooing may have been illegal at one time. I am guessing it was often done illegally? I think sign of the zodiac tattoos became popular with women (relatively speaking -- not to the degree that tattoos are now) as early as the 60s.

I never knew it either, until Det. Savage told me that-apparently, the authorities spoke to numerous tattoo artists, who must have been working illegally at the time that this woman got her tattoo, but nobody that they spoke to would say they'd done it (I am sure the police weren't interested in hassling tattoo artists; they already knew who was working underground). I realize that I may have been reading far too much into the scorpion, since it may very well have meant nothing more than a horoscope symbol-but I wanted to try to see if there was some greater significance that could help to identify her. In any event, as a horoscope, it could still do that-see if there is a missing person from outside of NY (or even a local) who has a birthdate that would make her a Scorpio.

This woman may not even be from this country-imagine how hard it will be to find iut who she is. If Sylvia isn't still alive, and her remains are outside of NY, it will be just as difficult to identify.