SOLVED NY - Tala Farea, 16, Rotana Farea, 22, Hudson River, 24 Oct 2018- COD released: suicide/drowning

[K_Z]

The media exposure is building slowly and has hit all the major media markets in the EU and US over the past few days, so I wouldn't write this case off yet as having no impact. The press release from the KSA consulate yesterday indicated that the case was on its radar and looking at that masterful piece of writing my guess is that it took a team of lawyers and PR folks more than a few minutes to write! KSA is under a global microscope at the moment, we have the issue of asylum and immigration (hot buttons at the moment in the US and globally) and that could impact the resources given to NYPD and other federal groups to work this case to the end IMO.

What is interesting is many non traditional news sources such as blogs, social media and magazines focused on women have picked up this story and are running with it. On the surface I think many might have been fooled by MBS strategy to 'allow' women to drive thinking that broader rights for women would follow but with more we have learned via the JK case the situation below the surface particularly for women and womens rights shows little change over a very long period of time and I think many in the West find this shocking and disturbing particularly given the youth of MBS.

I think that there will be powerful behind the scenes incentives/ persuasion to close this case up for MOD as "undetermined". I do think COD will be drowning. To follow it through may create more problems than it "solves".

There will not, IMO, be a huge clamoring for justice from the family, or KSA authorities. Nor do I think there will be many changing stories from KSA, as in JK's death. This is just a completely different situation than JK-- who was more than just a political critic. These women, Tala and Rotana, were just "females".

No one (authorities or media) in the U.S. or KSA is about to publicly tackle/ criticize the monumental and controversial issues of how women are perceived and treated in KSA. It's far too big of an issue with too much political spillover. And now is not "the time" for that. KSA is not even approaching close to being ready for women's equality, nor will be in my lifetime. IMO, it's probably the most oppressive place on earth for women.

 

[otto]

Finally, photos...

Mystery shrouds Saudi sisters' US deaths

And there we have it. Thank you! It looks like it might be a <modsnip> killing of girls who are too westernized.

"The Farea sisters moved from Saudi Arabia to Fairfax, Virginia, in 2015 with their mother, and had a history of running away from home, according to US officials. But investigators say it remains a "puzzle" as to how they came to be found dead on a riverbank more than 250 miles (400km) from their family's home.

The Saudi Consulate General said in a statement that embassy officials had contacted their family, and added that the sisters were students "accompanying their brother in Washington".

The Associated Press, citing New York police, said that the day before their bodies were discovered, their mother received a call from an official at the Saudi embassy ordering the family to leave because the girls had applied for political asylum."
​

Mystery shrouds Saudi sisters' US deaths

 

[otto]

I just saw a story on the local news, here in Los Angeles. And the reporter hinted that it could be a familial honor killing, as we have seen other here in the past.

That is what it looks like, which means that it is murder and not suicide. <modsnip - not victim friendly>

 

[LaborDayRN]

And there we have it. Thank you! It looks like it might be a <modsnip> killing of girls who are too westernized.

"The Farea sisters moved from Saudi Arabia to Fairfax, Virginia, in 2015 with their mother, and had a history of running away from home, according to US officials. But investigators say it remains a "puzzle" as to how they came to be found dead on a riverbank more than 250 miles (400km) from their family's home.

The Saudi Consulate General said in a statement that embassy officials had contacted their family, and added that the sisters were students "accompanying their brother in Washington".

The Associated Press, citing New York police, said that the day before their bodies were discovered, their mother received a call from an official at the Saudi embassy ordering the family to leave because the girls had applied for political asylum."
​

Mystery shrouds Saudi sisters' US deaths

My hope is that they will find some type of DNA evidence on the duct tape..........or somewhere!

 

[otto]

I think that there will be powerful behind the scenes incentives/ persuasion to close this case up for MOD as "undetermined". I do think COD will be drowning. To follow it through may create more problems than it "solves".

There will not, IMO, be a huge clamoring for justice from the family, or KSA authorities. Nor do I think there will be many changing stories from KSA, as in JK's death. This is just a completely different situation than JK-- who was more than just a political critic. These women, Tala and Rotana, were just "females".

No one (authorities or media) in the U.S. or KSA is about to publicly tackle/ criticize the monumental and controversial issues of how women are perceived and treated in KSA. It's far too big of an issue with too much political spillover. And now is not "the time" for that. KSA is not even approaching close to being ready for women's equality, nor will be in my lifetime. IMO, it's probably the most oppressive place on earth for women.

Drowning is most likely the cause of death. Manner of death is most likely homicide.

All that matters is how young women and teenage girls are treated here, not how they are treated in another place. If they were wrapped with duct tape and tossed into the river, perhaps the family's passports need to be collected - or have they already left the country?

 

[mickey2942]

I just saw a story on the local news, here in Los Angeles. And the reporter hinted that it could be a familial honor killing, as we have seen other here in the past.

I am surprised it made the national news, so many of these cases are ignored.

 

[otto]

My hope is that they will find some type of DNA evidence on the duct tape..........or somewhere!

Sure hope so. With duct tape on their feet and then taping them to each other around the waist, hopefully there's a hair or something. Hopefully the tape was carefully preserved and not torn up as though it was a suicide.

 

[OneEye]

That is what it looks like, which means that it is murder and not suicide. They were with their brother, and many honor killings are carried out by a brother.

If the NYPD investigation is able to prove family involvement then it will be interesting to see the response from the KSA Consulate in NYC as it relates to prosecution. I wonder though if the fact that the 2 sisters were allegedly seeking asylum in the US impacts the legal case built by the NYPD investigation in any way? The information on the location of the brother from MSM and NYPD is unclear so far as I can tell and it didn't appear that he was in NYC with the sisters. The NYT article posted yesterday mentioned the father but it seemed he was in transit to NYC once the sisters were identified. The visa status of the mother, brothers and the sisters is also unclear based on MSM articles. If the older sister had dropped out of George Mason then presumably she had lost her student visa standing but we don't have a clear answer on her visa status either at this point.

 

[otto]

I am surprised it made the national news, so many of these cases are ignored.

It sounded wrong from the beginning. There's no way that they duct taped their feet together and then hurled themselves off a bridge. Going into the water near the pier seems likely, but that's hardly a guarantee of a suicide. Also, I mentioned earlier that they didn't seem dressed for suicide - I don't quite understand worrying about hypothermia on the way to tossing themselves in the Hudson.

Did we ever find out if their arms were duct taped?

 

[K_Z]

Saudi Sisters Whose Bodies Were Found Bound Together in Hudson River Entered Water Alive: NYPD

Police investigating the mysterious deaths of two Saudi Arabian sisters whose bound bodies washed up on New York City’s waterfront on Oct. 24 say it appears they were alive when they went into the water.

Saudi Sisters Whose Bodies Were Found Bound Together in Hudson River Entered Water Alive: NYPD

 

[OneEye]

I think that there will be powerful behind the scenes incentives/ persuasion to close this case up for MOD as "undetermined". I do think COD will be drowning. To follow it through may create more problems than it "solves".

There will not, IMO, be a huge clamoring for justice from the family, or KSA authorities. Nor do I think there will be many changing stories from KSA, as in JK's death. This is just a completely different situation than JK-- who was more than just a political critic. These women, Tala and Rotana, were just "females".

No one (authorities or media) in the U.S. or KSA is about to publicly tackle/ criticize the monumental and controversial issues of how women are perceived and treated in KSA. It's far too big of an issue with too much political spillover. And now is not "the time" for that. KSA is not even approaching close to being ready for women's equality, nor will be in my lifetime. IMO, it's probably the most oppressive place on earth for women.

It will be interesting to see if your view prevails. The cynical side of me thinks that sadly you are most likely correct. But there is this recent sense of building anger and disgust toward the KSA regime particularly in the West following the JK case and while officials in many governments might feel hamstrung to do anything to upset the economic forces of trade and investment by fighting openly about the JK case they just might be willing to pursue this case to the end to demonstrate that there is something important in our world about Western values that is worth fighting for. The media might just be willing to take on the issue of women in KSA as I believe their anger about the JK case has them just itching for a good fight and we have seen it in some very strong op eds in all the major US and UK papers over the past couple of weeks with some even calling for the King to remove MBS. Even the French politicians have recently entered the fray on the issue of KSA and the JK case so I don't think this case can simply be swept under the rug as the press just might keep it alive to torment KSA.

I agree that KSA is probably one of the most oppressive places on earth for women but if this case heads in the direction of being proven as an honour killing then what better way to shine a light on the oppressive regime than a seemingly 'inconsequential' case involving just 'females'? In my mind this would allow the world press to vent its disgust and anger over the JK case as it doesn't seem that sanctions against KSA will have much if any impact, at least in the US. We shall see what happens but I don't think the power and total disgust that the press has for the way world leaders have chosen to handle the JK case can be underestimated and this anger can now be directed in a new direction to further torment the KSA.

 

[Chelly]

To add an extra level of cruelty to their murders. I think they were dropped into the water together, from a nearby pier or off a boat, and were probably unconscious, otherwise their hands and mouths would have been bound too.

They could have been murdered and were already dead and bound when dropped in the water.

Edit. Just read news report stating sisters were alive when they went into water. If this is the case, LE found river water in their lungs.

 

[OneEye]

Saudi Sisters Whose Bodies Were Found Bound Together in Hudson River Entered Water Alive: NYPD

Stunning. Does anyone see a way that these 2 sisters could have wrapped themselves up in duct tape around the waists facing each other, individually duct taped their ankles and then jumped into the water presumably off a pier? I don't recall mention of whether the arms were taped as well but as they were found in a cross like position I wonder if the arms were untaped?

 

[Chelly]

I am beginning to lean towards homocide. I think that duct-taping the bodies together facing each other was a message or statement by murderer/s.

 

[K_Z]

Largely, I want to agree with you, OneEye. Sadly, and pragmatically, I think stability of the middle east region would be perceived as a larger goal than the deaths of 2 young Saudi women in the U.S.

KSA is a U.S. "ally". We (the U.S. and the West) are loathe to criticize things like the cultural aspects of the treatment of women in KSA society as long as places like KSA keep those cultural imperatives in their own region/ country and don't "export" them.

And we can't criticize the treatment of women in KSA without the larger issue of the treatment of women in similar countries, cultures, and regions being raised. Which would cause enormous problems and instability worldwide.

Finally, we have to accept that regions and countries like KSA simply view death very, very differently than we do here in the U.S.-- and that means any deaths. Keep in mind that over *2,200* people died at the Hajj in 2015 alone (the year that Tala, at age 13, Rotana at age 19, and their mom and brother came to the U.S.). That BARELY made the news. 2200 dead at a religious pilgrimage! (Imagine if 2200 people died at Christmas eve services at the Vatican??!)

Quite simply, the deaths of these 2 young women just aren't concerning or bothersome to KSA authorities-- UNLESS their deaths create some kind of uncomfortable political situation that they have to mitigate.

We'll see what happens in the next 2 weeks. My gut says this story will disappear from MSM within a week or 2. Stability will be maintained. Some diplomacy will be exchanged along with superficial expressions of concern and diplomatic action by KSA.

The mother and brother will return home to KSA. If they are not already there.

 

[OneEye]

CNN update from Wed.
Sisters found along Hudson River were Saudi citizens, officials say - CNN

 

[OneEye]

We'll see what happens in the next 2 weeks. My gut says this story will disappear from MSM within a week or 2. Stability will be maintained. Some diplomacy will be exchanged along with superficial expressions of concern and diplomatic action by KSA.

The mother and brother will return home to KSA. If they are not already there.

I agree, we will have to stay tuned for more details! I do wonder how prominent a family we are dealing with here and if the remaining family members in the US might seek asylum or will they be bundled off back to KSA? I would imagine moving a family to the US is not inexpensive along with paying for college as the older sister supposedly declined KSA scholarship support. I don't speak Arabic but friends that do said local social media in Istanbul blew up with details about the JK case. I wonder how much, if anything of this case has hit social media amongst arabic speaking members and what they are saying?

 

[Angleterre]

These terribly unfortunate girls' deaths, IMO, have been caused by both political, and cultural forces. This is not a "random" double murder, nor a peculiar double suicide. IMO.

I have spent an extended amount of time in KSA, and so I have a unique perspective on the treatment of women and girls in that country and culture. What these girls were doing in the weeks and months prior to their deaths would not be at all tolerated in their culture. This tragedy has all the hallmarks of a typical "cultural punishment" double murder, IMO.

But I don't think these sisters' deaths have anything to do with the Kashoggi murder.

And I can't help but notice that the drawings initially released portray 2 women who appear to be of AA descent-- and look nothing at all like the pictures released today. Interesting, considering the reports are that the bodies had not been decomposed at all, nor damaged, so facial features should not have been too badly distorted.

I think there is *zero* chance this was a double suicide. And I don't think it will ever be solved.

I agree wholeheartedly with this

 

[JudgeJudi]

Rather than live on campus like many of her classmates, Rotana traveled back to her home in Falls Church, Virginia where she lived with her mother, brother and sister Tala.

I can't work out the living arrangements. When they arrived in the US in 2015, Rotana would have been aged 19, Tala 13, and I'm guessing the brother was somewhere in-between. How did she manage to go to college in NY and travel back to Va. where she lived with others? Maybe the apartment was in NY and she only went home on weekends and holidays.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Adult women must obtain permission from a male guardian to travel, marry, or exit prison. They may be required to provide guardian consent in order to work or access healthcare. Women regularly face difficulty conducting a range of transactions without a male relative, from renting an apartment to filing legal claims. Guardians have conditioned their consent for women to work or to travel on her paying him large sums of money.

Specifically, women may not apply for a passport without male guardian approval and require permission to travel outside the country. Women also cannot study abroad on a government scholarship without guardian approval and, while not always enforced, officially require a male relative to accompany them throughout the course of their studies.

Deputy Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman told the Economist that women’s travel was not entirely restricted, and pointed to social and religious criteria to explain the restrictions that he believed existed.

Boxed In | Women and Saudi Arabia’s Male Guardianship System

Watch the 3 very short videos.