SOLVED NY - Tala Farea, 16, Rotana Farea, 22, Hudson River, 24 Oct 2018- COD released: suicide/drowning

[borndem]

This is belated, but here it is:

Welcome to Websleuths, aletko!!!​

 

[kaen]

I realize that its tidal but 100 blocks/nearly a mile? The bodies were reported to be in good shape but the Hudson is full of debris and to get from that far north to W68th the bodies would have had to pass through the Boat Basin at W79th Street which extends out into the Hudson and also has many boats moored outside the dock area itself. I would doubt that the bodies could make it a mile, pass the basin and then show up where they were found with no signs of injury. If you do a quick google trip down that area of the Hudson you will see what I'm talking about in terms of the boat basin being a major obstacle to a smooth path south.

I walk and drive by that area on a regular basis. It isn't that debris filled-- it is cleaner than it has been in many years. There are 8 bridges marathoners who do the Fishkill to Verrazano Narrows every year and report on the safety of the water quality and lack of obstacles. If they truly walked into the water and out a bit. It is possible to get down a mile in a number of hours. There are very few boats in the basin at this point in the year.

 

[Shlock Homes]

We have to take the witness testimony with a grain of salt. We don't know if they accurately described the clothing they were wearing when they were found in the water. And they were in the water long enough that their sketched images looked nothing like their id photos (I have a feeling that partial bloating or decomposition resulted in that). That means they were in the water at least a day or two.
There's so much contradictory information being released, I don't know if we'll ever get to the real story. Ultimately, I don't find there's a reason why two individuals intent on killing themselves would wrap themselves in duct tape, in a cross configuration as has been described. We also don't know where they went into the water, it could have easily been from a boat, or upstream on the New Jersey side.
Also it seems like the police would prefer to call it a suicide because then they can close the case sooner. If they were going around on a spending spree, there should be video surveillance footage of them. But at this point, they still appear to be more like ghosts.

 

[Inthedetails]

How did they get from W163rd to W68th?

Floated down the river. The current in strong, though it does flow in both directions due to the tide. It is not stagnant water at all - very dangerous currents.

jmo

 

[Inthedetails]

I just checked google images for Muslim women praying and none of them have their heads in their hands. Anybody know if there is some type of Muslim suicide prayer and they put their heads in their hands?

Ones who are crying as they are about to end their lives with their sister?

jmo

 

[Inthedetails]

I walk and drive by that area on a regular basis. It isn't that debris filled-- it is cleaner than it has been in many years. There are 8 bridges marathoners who do the Fishkill to Verrazano Narrows every year. If they truly walked into the water and out a bit. It is possible to get down a mile in a number of hours. There are very few boats in the basin at this point in the year.

I agree. I'm also familiar with the area and am not particularly surprised by where they likely entered the water and where they were found.

So sorry this happened. It's unsettling in many ways.

jmo

 

[kaen]

We have to take the witness testimony with a grain of salt. We don't know if they accurately described the clothing they were wearing when they were found in the water. And they were in the water long enough that their sketched images looked nothing like their id photos (I have a feeling that partial bloating or decomposition resulted in that). That means they were in the water at least a day or two.
There's so much contradictory information being released, I don't know if we'll ever get to the real story. Ultimately, I don't find there's a reason why two individuals intent on killing themselves would wrap themselves in duct tape, in a cross configuration as has been described. We also don't know where they went into the water, it could have easily been from a boat, or upstream on the New Jersey side.

The press conference officer said today that they were not in a cross configuration and that reports of a jump from the GWB was unlikely given the lack of body damage.

If this is a suicide, I would imagine that it was hard and scary to do. Unlike a drug overdose where we imagine just going to sleep. These two women walked into the river, got cold and I am sure shivering, had clothing getting heavy and weighing them down, and died. Even with resolve to do it, it had to be terrifying. I had imagined that the duct tape was to ensure that they would be found together or neither found. Their time together over the last almost year was really the two of them against their world---their family and their culture. I see it as a devotion to end up in eternity together.

I am so sad that these young women felt no other option, that they felt that the SA government and their families would place them back under their thumbs. A proposition that was repugnant and unsettling so much so that death was a better option. Yet, we know millions of women live under the thumb of oppressors in their families or governments and still have no voice. These young women are speaking loudly and clearly about what was wrong. But, the questions are.. Will there be a dialogue about the conditions of their lives? How many women do this and are never seen by the media or WS? Is it time for all of us to stand against oppression?

 

[OneEye]

I wonder if in their time in NYC they ever set foot in a mosque and perhaps someone remembers them? I am not sure religion would be a source of comfort to them or not and perhaps they wouldn't have headed to a mosque in a time of crisis as maybe it was too closely tied to what they appeared to be running from? But maybe a mosque wouldn't have been viewed as a place of safety either if they were afraid of being repatriated to KSA.

Here is an interesting article about some of the NYC mosques:
New York City’s Forgotten Muslim Past

List of NYC mosques:
Mosques and Islamic schools in Manhattan, New York City - Salatomatic - your guide to mosques & Islamic schools

 

[TTF14]

The press conference officer said today that they were not in a cross configuration and that reports of a jump from the GWB was unlikely given the lack of body damage.

If this is a suicide, I would imagine that it was hard and scary to do. Unlike a drug overdose where we imagine just going to sleep. These two women walked into the river, got cold and I am sure shivering, had clothing getting heavy and weighing them down, and died. Even with resolve to do it, it had to be terrifying. I had imagined that the duct tape was to ensure that they would be found together or neither found. Their time together over the last almost year was really the two of them against their world---their family and their culture. I see it as a devotion to end up in eternity together.

I am so sad that these young women felt no other option, that they felt that the SA government and their families would place them back under their thumbs. A proposition that was repugnant and unsettling so much so that death was a better option. Yet, we know millions of women live under the thumb of oppressors in their families or governments and still have no voice. These young women are speaking loudly and clearly about what was wrong. But, the questions are.. Will there be a dialogue about the conditions of their lives? How many women do this and are never seen by the media or WS? Is it time for all of us to stand against oppression?

Very well said. And as I said before, I look forward to the SVU episode that will surely be made based on this tragedy. Maybe a dialogue will begin. I prayed several times today, thanking God that my daughter and I were born in a free country. We have so much to be thankful for.

 

[Shlock Homes]

Looking at old articles, none of the old evidence and current information make any sense. If the girls left the home in November 2017, how did the neighbor see the family move out in the summer? The girls left their schools earlier in 2018, and then what? Something must have happened in August that caused them to leave Virginia (assuming that's when they headed to NYC) and go on a spending spree. And how did they support themselves during that alleged entire year they were living away from home? ‘I don’t know where my daughters are’: Odd encounter deepens mystery surrounding disappearance and deaths of Saudi sisters

 

[musicaljoke]

-Eyewitness came forward and says he saw both of them in a park near the river. They were seated about 30 feet apart and were praying. This was at 7 am when he would do exercises near the same park.

-The duct tape was not tightly holding their bodies together but seemed to keep both their bodies connected to each other.

If they were 30 feet apart, praying with their heads in their hands, at 7:00 in the morning, which is still pretty dark, then who exactly did he see? Muslim women wear head coverings when they pray.

I hope the investigators come up with some stronger evidence. Sunrise prayer time in NYC was around 7:00 that morning. He may have seen two women making their regular daily prayers.

Muslim Pro for iPhone and Android

 

[Shlock Homes]

If they were 30 feet apart, praying with their heads in their hands, at 7:00 in the morning, which is still pretty dark, then who exactly did he see? Muslim women wear head coverings when they pray.

I hope the investigators come up with some stronger evidence.

And we need to find out from the autopsy report when was their time of death and how long were they in the water. If it was less than 5 hours, they wouldn't have much bloating.
i'm concerned the police want to run with these alleged eyewitness accounts to close the case quickly. Media outlets are already reporting they are ruling out foul play.
If they wanted to duct tape themselves together to stay together in their suicide, why did they also duct tape their feet? And how did they get to the water? I'm pretty sure two people duct taping themselves in the middle of the day by the waterfront would have stood out, even in NYC.

 

[Inthedetails]

And we need to find out from the autopsy report when was their time of death and how long were they in the water. If it was less than 5 hours, they wouldn't have much bloating.
i'm concerned the police want to run with these alleged eyewitness accounts to close the case quickly. Media outlets are already reporting they are ruling out foul play.
If they wanted to duct tape themselves together to stay together in their suicide, why did they also duct tape their feet? And how did they get to the water? I'm pretty sure two people duct taping themselves in the middle of the day by the waterfront would have stood out, even in NYC.

Looking at the map of the area where the witness saw them, there are sections of the riverfront that looked blocked by trees. Perhaps they taped themselves there and walked into the water without being seen by passersby. It is odd, though, as that stretch is used by bike riders commuting to work, runners, dogwalkers, etc. There is also river traffic that could have potentially see them. Either the sisters waited for just the right moment or they waited until dark. Just because the witness saw them at 7am doesn't mean they entered the water soon after. Perhaps they were in the park for hours.

jmo

 

[TTF14]

And we need to find out from the autopsy report when was their time of death and how long were they in the water. If it was less than 5 hours, they wouldn't have much bloating.
i'm concerned the police want to run with these alleged eyewitness accounts to close the case quickly. Media outlets are already reporting they are ruling out foul play.
If they wanted to duct tape themselves together to stay together in their suicide, why did they also duct tape their feet? And how did they get to the water? I'm pretty sure two people duct taping themselves in the middle of the day by the waterfront would have stood out, even in NYC.

I'd be interested in seeing a reenactment of how they were taped together exactly.

 

[Shlock Homes]

Looking at the map of the area where the witness saw them, there are sections of the riverfront that looked blocked by trees. Perhaps they taped themselves there and walked into the water without being seen by passersby. It is odd, though, as that stretch is used by bike riders commuting to work, runners, dogwalkers, etc. There is also river traffic that could have potentially see them. Either the sisters waited for just the right moment or they waited until dark. Just because the witness saw them at 7am doesn't mean they entered the water soon after. Perhaps they were in the park for hours.
jmo

We should go back to the earlier eyewitness reports of the bodies. They reported they taped around their waists, and then around their ankles. Also, if they were floating in the water during the day time, they would have been seen before they reached the rocks. They were on the rocks because the tide went out.
Bodies of 2 Women Bound Together with Duct Tape Found Washed Up on the Rocks of the Hudson River
And here's the tide times for the day the bodies were spotted. Were they floating down river during high tide and nobody saw them? Or were their bodies possibly under the walkway from before dark, then when the tide went out, their bodies appeared on the rocks.
Tide times and charts for New York City (East 41st Street), New York and weather forecast for fishing in New York City (East 41st Street) in 2018
On Wednesday, 24th of October of 2018, the sun rose in New York City (East 41st Street) at 7:17 am and sunset was at 6:01 pm. In the high tide and low tide chart, we can see that the first low tide was at 3:18 am and the next low tide at 3:52 pm. The first high tide was at 9:32 am and the next high tide at 9:51 pm.

 

[kaen]

If they were 30 feet apart, praying with their heads in their hands, at 7:00 in the morning, which is still pretty dark, then who exactly did he see? Muslim women wear head coverings when they pray.

I hope the investigators come up with some stronger evidence. Sunrise prayer time in NYC was around 7:00 that morning. He may have seen two women making their regular daily prayers.

Muslim Pro for iPhone and Android

There are many surveillance cameras throughout NYC. I would imagine if they start with the last hotel stay. They will be able to get to the park if they have not already done so.

I get the skepticism that people have. I also want to make sure we have the truth about what happen to these young women. That said, (and this is not about your post per se, musicaljoke) NYPD doesn't talk quickly or without believing that they have a high level confidence in the information shared. Usually NYPD will say nothing, which was driving all of us nuts early on in this case.

It makes sense to me that this was them for a couple of reasons. Cards were maxed out. Mom had talked to them about going back to SA. So options were running out.

It was after the Khashoggi case was all over the news---so if he was killed, why not them? And, would anyone care if they disappeared? We have no idea about their mental state, except that they did kill themselves. Did one or both have documented depression? They depended on each other and only on each other. Did they leave VA because the shelter and the shelter workers want them to talk to the parents? Or, did their legal status come up in relation to services available? Did they feel that the government agencies were downplaying their claims or concerns? Did they have PTSD? Were they paranoid about being killed? Did they have anyone they trusted? They had made abuse claims that seemed to go nowhere. The US is talking about less refugees and asylum seekers. The US is friendly with SA. Would the US keep them here or send them back? These are all possible things running through their heads--a lot for a teen and a 22 yo.

I think they were praying at the park. I think they felt hopeless. I think they couldn't imagine how this could end better. I wish they knew the way that their story has brought people to be concerned about them. It might have made a difference.

 

[kaen]

We should go back to the earlier eyewitness reports of the bodies. They reported they taped around their waists, and then around their ankles. Also, if they were floating in the water during the day time, they would have been seen before they reached the rocks. They were on the rocks because the tide went out.
Bodies of 2 Women Bound Together with Duct Tape Found Washed Up on the Rocks of the Hudson River
And here's the tide times for the day the bodies were spotted. Were they floating down river during high tide and nobody saw them? Or were their bodies possibly under the walkway from before dark, then when the tide went out, their bodies appeared on the rocks.
Tide times and charts for New York City (East 41st Street), New York and weather forecast for fishing in New York City (East 41st Street) in 2018
On Wednesday, 24th of October of 2018, the sun rose in New York City (East 41st Street) at 7:17 am and sunset was at 6:01 pm. In the high tide and low tide chart, we can see that the first low tide was at 3:18 am and the next low tide at 3:52 pm. The first high tide was at 9:32 am and the next high tide at 9:51 pm.

You have to look at the Hudson River tides not the East River tides. On that side of Manhattan, sunrise might be at 7:17 but that part of the island is hilly so the sun would still be below the buildings on the Hudson side.

Hudson River Tides Hudson, Hudson River, New York Tide Chart

2018-10-24 Wed 3:18 AM EDT 4.4 feet High Tide
2018-10-24 Wed 7:18 AM EDT Sunrise
2018-10-24 Wed 9:50 AM EDT -0.1 feet Low Tide
2018-10-24 Wed 12:47 PM EDT Full Moon
2018-10-24 Wed 3:31 PM EDT 4.8 feet High Tide
2018-10-24 Wed 5:59 PM EDT Sunset

 

[Gardener1850]

I just checked google images for Muslim women praying and none of them have their heads in their hands. Anybody know if there is some type of Muslim suicide prayer and they put their heads in their hands?

Search "muslim woman praying and crying" and some images come up of women kneeling with their hands covering their face. Specifically, women who are mourning at graves.

I think the runner's account is believable that this could have been the sisters he saw. It does leave a question in my mind, however, as to what happened before they went to the park to pray. Had family found them and said they must return to SA immediately? Did their credit card get maxed out at the hotel so they no longer had a place to stay and didn't want to go back to a shelter? Why were they crying?
I don't feel this case is settled as to what happened yet.
JMO.

 

[madamx]

Police are looking into the meaning of an apparently troubling trail the sisters left behind.

New York police sent a detective to Virginia to learn more about the sisters' lives there. "Those interviews are really unraveling, in some way, a piece of the puzzle of behind the scenes," Shea said Wednesday. "There is still work to do."

Their mother received a call from the Saudi Embassy in Washington, D.C. ordering the family to leave the U.S. because her daughters had applied for political asylum. Yet an unnamed embassy official said that no such call was made. "Any/All communication with the mother had nothing to do with a supposed asylum claim," the official told the outlet.

If no such call was made, what does the “Any/All communication” refer to. Embassies don’t ring out of the blue for no reason, and if there was nothing untoward, why did the consulate "appointed an attorney to follow the case closely."

N.Y. Police Seeking Answers In Deaths Of Saudi Sisters Found In River

Ok JudgeJudi..You got a Real Good Point there.!! Yeah the Embassies don't just call you to say Hi!

 

[bears10]

We have to take the witness testimony with a grain of salt. We don't know if they accurately described the clothing they were wearing when they were found in the water. And they were in the water long enough that their sketched images looked nothing like their id photos (I have a feeling that partial bloating or decomposition resulted in that). That means they were in the water at least a day or two.
There's so much contradictory information being released, I don't know if we'll ever get to the real story. Ultimately, I don't find there's a reason why two individuals intent on killing themselves would wrap themselves in duct tape, in a cross configuration as has been described. We also don't know where they went into the water, it could have easily been from a boat, or upstream on the New Jersey side.
Also it seems like the police would prefer to call it a suicide because then they can close the case sooner. If they were going around on a spending spree, there should be video surveillance footage of them. But at this point, they still appear to be more like ghosts.

LE specifically said in the PC that the cross configuration is false and they were NOT positioned like that. I recommend watching the PC as it will probably clear up a lot of things for you.