NY - Woman to become NY firefighter despite failing crucial fitness test

[Sonya610]

But what is fair? If the department is 99.5% male and 0.5% female, are these tests fair to females?

IMO it isn't about being "fair" it is about hiring the best people for that specific job for EVERYONE'S safety!

 

[KaaBoom]

Why on earth would she WANT this job if she is not physically fit to fulfill it safely? Boggles my mind. She is putting her own life and the lives of many others at risk. What's the point of this grueling test if they make concessions? This is b.s. IMO

To earn a living maybe? She applied for the job, she qualified, and she was hired. How is that her fault? If she didn't apply for the job, some other woman with her same physical characteristics would have get the job.

Don't blame her. Blame the fire commissioner who sets the standards.

 

[SophieRose]

There were two other women in the class who did pass all tests.

http://pix11.com/2015/05/05/newest-...rucial-fitness-exam-leaked-test-results-show/

Wax, however, met the standards for elevation to probationary firefighter. Those standards were changed for the most recent academy class, as they’ve been done for some classes in the past, as the Women’s Firefighters Group president pointed out.

“The current requirement,” said Women Firefighters United president Sarinya Srisakul, “is the same as 2008.”

She said that, in consideration of the current staffing needs of the department, the commissioner decided to revise the graduation requirements to those of seven years ago.

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

But what is fair? If the department is 99.5% male and 0.5% female, are these tests fair to females?

How do you make it fair? Do you lower the requirements for women and make it unfair to men? Do you lower the requirements across the board and make it less safe for firefighters and the public in general?

Firefighting is a physically demanding job. It's a fact that men on average have 50% more upper body strength than women. Men are about 20% larger and have a greater proportion of muscle mass in general. Men have more brute strength than women.

Don't despair ladies, nature has a way of compensating. That is why women are more intelligent and prettier than men.

 

[Sonya610]

To earn a living maybe?

I believe the article stated she already HAD a job earning 50k a year in an administrative position for the fire department.

I wonder if the recruit that she beat out needed the job??? The more qualified male recruit.

 

[jjenny]

I believe the article stated she already HAD a job earning 50k a year in an administrative position for the fire department.

I wonder if the recruit that she beat out needed the job??? The more qualified male recruit.

Not all male recruits made it to the end. There was some that dropped out. Maybe they beat a more qualified male recruit also.
What should be done about that?

 

[SophieRose]

Picture of the 3 females at graduation ceremony

http://m.nydailynews.com/new-york/f...efighters-including-3-women-article-1.2211289

 

[sonjay]

If they want women in the ranks of the NYFD so badly, perhaps they should set a quota of 50% of all recruits admitted to the academy must be women, and they they should lower the standards so that 100% of the women can pass.

That would be fair.

 

[Sonya610]

If they want women in the ranks of the NYFD so badly, perhaps they should set a quota of 50% of all recruits admitted to the academy must be women, and they they should lower the standards so that 100% of the women can pass.

That would be fair.

Why should it be only fair for SOME women? What about petite 85 lb females that have always wanted to be fire fighters even though they aren't strong enough to compete? Or asthmatics? Or little people, or as stated before wheelchair bound people or the elderly.

If it is about being fair then there really shouldn't be any physical standards since those standards will ALWAYS be unfair for some individuals.

 

[sonjay]

Why should it be only fair for SOME women? What about petite 85 lb females that have always wanted to be fire fighters even though they aren't strong enough to compete? Or asthmatics? Or little people, or as stated before wheelchair bound people or the elderly.

If it is about being fair then there really shouldn't be any physical standards since those standards will ALWAYS be unfair for some individuals.

Very good point! I've revised my opinion. There should be no standards at all, because, you're right, any standards will be unfair for some individuals. The only fair thing to do is to eliminate all standards. They can just hold a drawing to see who gets to be a firefighter. Anyone who wants to be firefighter gets one ticket in the drawing. Is one ticket per person fair?

 

[SophieRose]

There is a backstory to all this. She first took the test in 2007. A lawsuit was filed that year that the tests "do not accurately determine whether an applicant will be able to perform the job of firefighter" and that the tests "disproportionately [screen] out large numbers of qualified black and Hispanic applicants." A judge ruled that NYFD needed to implement a new exam. There was a hiring freeze from 2008-2012, first exam since 2007 administered in Jan 2012. In 2010 or 2011, the cut-off age for applicants taking the test was changed from 29 to 35 years to remedy the consequences of the 2007 decision, many of those who took the 2007 exam had aged out.

I don't know if there are 2015 standards. She could have performed differently at age 25 in 2007, of course the same could be said of older males.

http://pix11.com/2015/05/05/newest-...rucial-fitness-exam-leaked-test-results-show/
Wax, however, met the standards for elevation to probationary firefighter. Those standards were changed for the most recent academy class, as they’ve been done for some classes in the past, as the Women’s Firefighters Group president pointed out.

“The current requirement,” said Women Firefighters United president Sarinya Srisakul, “is the same as 2008.”

She said that, in consideration of the current staffing needs of the department, the commissioner decided to revise the graduation requirements to those of seven years ago.

http://gothamist.com/2007/05/22/fdny_sued_over.php
Sample question from 2007 example
While operating at a fire, Capt. Green, the commander of the Ladder Company 999, was sent by Chief Brown to locate the exact location of the fire. The fire building was two stories in height with a basement. Capt. Green found that the fire was located in one corner at the rear of the basement. The best way for Capt. Green to write this information in a fire report upon returning to the firehouse was as follows:

A) “The fire was located on the lower level, in the rear.”
B) “The fire was located in the southeast corner of the lower level.”
C) “The fire was located in the southeast corner of the basement.”
D) “The fire was located in the rear of the basement.”

The answer is "C: The fire was located in the southeast corner of the basement."



FDNY Sued Over Unfair Hiring Practices
http://gothamist.com/2007/05/22/fdny_sued_over.php
City Calls Judge's FDNY Hiring Suggestions "Illegal"
http://gothamist.com/2010/09/18/city_calls_judges_fdny_hiring_offer.php
FDNY Applicants Urge Raising Age Limit After Hiring Freeze
http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/201...-out-by-litigation-push-for-higher-age-limits

 

[jjenny]

This woman is paving the way for THAT too.

Not only could she NOT pass the test but the age limit for recruits is 29, she is 33 so that was changed on her behalf as well.

I feel sorry for all of the other firemen, but I especially feel sorry for the firewomen that worked their butts off to pass that test and hopefully be accepted as equals in male dominated firehouses. As the article points out it sets a precedence that will likely make the men question the qualifications of any new female hires since they might have just gotten a "waiver" instead of being truly qualified.

That is very unfair to the women that DID pass the test fair and square.

The age limit is 36 for those already on the list. Since she took the test before, she is already on the list, so she is below the age limit.

 

[Solitaryone]

Lowering standards to accomodate anyone is wrong on every level. It's unfair to those who do meet the requirements, it's unfair and dangerous for everyone else. This PC crap of sacrificing standards to accomodate and appease those who can't cut it is unfair to all. And not just the FD either.

 

[screecher]

Yep. It has to do with 'quotas'. Standards are being lowered.

No firefighter is going to want her as part of their crew. Not because she is a woman, but because she failed the test. She is a liability.

 

[Lulu14]

I pity her future victims.

 

[SStarr33]

There is a backstory to all this. She first took the test in 2007. A lawsuit was filed that year that the tests "do not accurately determine whether an applicant will be able to perform the job of firefighter" and that the tests "disproportionately [screen] out large numbers of qualified black and Hispanic applicants." A judge ruled that NYFD needed to implement a new exam. There was a hiring freeze from 2008-2012, first exam since 2007 administered in Jan 2012. In 2010 or 2011, the cut-off age for applicants taking the test was changed from 29 to 35 years to remedy the consequences of the 2007 decision, many of those who took the 2007 exam had aged out.

I don't know if there are 2015 standards. She could have performed differently at age 25 in 2007, of course the same could be said of older males.

http://pix11.com/2015/05/05/newest-...rucial-fitness-exam-leaked-test-results-show/
Wax, however, met the standards for elevation to probationary firefighter. Those standards were changed for the most recent academy class, as they’ve been done for some classes in the past, as the Women’s Firefighters Group president pointed out.

“The current requirement,” said Women Firefighters United president Sarinya Srisakul, “is the same as 2008.”

She said that, in consideration of the current staffing needs of the department, the commissioner decided to revise the graduation requirements to those of seven years ago.

http://gothamist.com/2007/05/22/fdny_sued_over.php
Sample question from 2007 example
While operating at a fire, Capt. Green, the commander of the Ladder Company 999, was sent by Chief Brown to locate the exact location of the fire. The fire building was two stories in height with a basement. Capt. Green found that the fire was located in one corner at the rear of the basement. The best way for Capt. Green to write this information in a fire report upon returning to the firehouse was as follows:

A) “The fire was located on the lower level, in the rear.”
B) “The fire was located in the southeast corner of the lower level.”
C) “The fire was located in the southeast corner of the basement.”
D) “The fire was located in the rear of the basement.”

The answer is "C: The fire was located in the southeast corner of the basement."



FDNY Sued Over Unfair Hiring Practices
http://gothamist.com/2007/05/22/fdny_sued_over.php
City Calls Judge's FDNY Hiring Suggestions "Illegal"
http://gothamist.com/2010/09/18/city_calls_judges_fdny_hiring_offer.php
FDNY Applicants Urge Raising Age Limit After Hiring Freeze
http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/201...-out-by-litigation-push-for-higher-age-limits

Looks like a fifth grade question.

 

[Momoffourboys]

To earn a living maybe? She applied for the job, she qualified, and she was hired. How is that her fault? If she didn't apply for the job, some other woman with her same physical characteristics would have get the job.

Don't blame her. Blame the fire commissioner who sets the standards.

First, I know many who would like to earn a living...they usually do what they are qualified to do. She did not qualify. She failed the physical exam and was given a free pass. I don't blame her. I blame those who gave her the pass. All MOO.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

Hypothetical so here goes:

I once wanted to be a Cage Fighter---but thought better of it as I'm very petite, slow with my "mitts", & bleed easily. It has nothing to do with gender & everything to do with my lack of skillsets to do the job effectively.

Conversely, my dear hubby wanted to do Data Entry in a business office. But since he has fingers like sausages, can't type worth a lick & gets bored looking at a computer screen after an hour; he's going to stick to doing outdoor-type of construction work. It's not about gender---it's all about skillsets needed to do the job effectively.

Hypothetical over.

Moo

 

[jjenny]

Looks like a fifth grade question.

Does it? This supposedly correct answer makes no sense to me, because the question doesn't include "southeast" in it. So how does someone supposed to know the correct answer is "southeast" corner of the basement? What if it's in the northwest corner of the basement? Or northeast? Or southwest? This information isn't provided in the question, so supposedly correct answer doesn't make a lick of sense.

 

[katydid23]

Does it? This supposedly correct answer makes no sense to me, because the question doesn't include "southeast" in it. So how does someone supposed to know the correct answer is "southeast" corner of the basement? What if it's in the northwest corner of the basement? Or northeast? Or southwest? This information isn't provided in the question, so supposedly correct answer doesn't make a lick of sense.

I think there might have been a diagram with the test. This question looks very much like the test for LE and the report writing section. They ask similar questions and show diagrams.