kids driving on your own property is not illegal. I've allowed a 12 year old to drive a pickup truck when I lived on acreage. Of course, I was sitting right next to...but still. People with farms and ranches, it's prosaically a necessity!
GUILTY OH - Deborah McVay, 46, murdered, Big Prairie, 2 Jan 2011
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kids driving on your own property is not illegal. I've allowed a 12 year old to drive a pickup truck when I lived on acreage. Of course, I was sitting right next to...but still. People with farms and ranches, it's prosaically a necessity!
I remember reading Magid's book years ago when my house was filled with angry young boys. I also heard him speak at an adoption conference. It's an excellent book to hand to people who have no clue as to what attachment disorder and conduct disorder are all about. It frightened me to such a degree that I got busy and learned to manage our household with as much consistency, routine and professional involvement as possible. Children with these issues are not for the faint of heart.
I have been injured a number of times but it's always been a hard shove, a punch, or being hit with something thrown. And it's usually been my "fault". It was because I pushed too hard or got in someone's face. You have to parent children like this with a calmness and firmness which lacks the element of emotion. No drama allowed, EVER. As my boys grew, I learned to watch my safety as I'm very petite. My husband, who is a large man, was almost always present in the home. We worked with the boys who were raging as a team. I have never been threatened with a weapon. We have never owned a gun nor kept sharp knives in the house for this specific reason. No sticks and no baseball bats were ever on the property. We were careful. I was accosted once by a very mentally unstable foster son with a Kleenex box and an umbrella (because it was our umbrella, it had a blunt tip). I held him at bay for 20 minutes until help arrived.
Oceanblueeyes is correct that anything can be used as a weapon but guns are awfully "easy" and seem impersonal. Little boys also are programed to think that so many actors and video game characters bounce right back. At 10, they are still "magical thinkers". One of our boys (aged 8) literally chased the principal of his elementary school down the middle of main street with a large stick as my husband and I tried to cut him off (gently) with our car. I've seen that rage close up. These are the boys who grow up to be the men who put holes in walls. Our walls were glazed plaster. The children have to be taught to channel that rage as it doesn't simply go away. We've had them run, dig holes, slam balls against a wall. We tried everything. But I never let down my guard around 2 of my sons. Their rage is still a force to contend with. And our boys with the deepest rage were medicated. That medication was carefully doled out and logged. Not a pill was missed. So many children can have tremendously violent reactions to suddenly starting or stopping meds. This is a huge problem for people without consistent medical care.
That said, I do believe that children can be born without a conscience or can lose a conscience due to trauma. This is NOT some sort of evil or shortcoming or choice of theirs, however. I firmly believe, with all my first hand experience and research, that the hard-wiring can be skewed to a degree that a fully developed conscience is just not possible. The edge can be taken off. Some empathy can be taught. Some manners, possibly. But some children will be beyond hope. We've often said that two of our sons are as "good as the supervision they receive". They have no tempering valve and must have their behaviors managed as they absolutely cannot be modified. Everything must be processed in a tight and routinized milieu.
These are the types of children Waltzingmatilda was speaking of. New research is showing that even MRIs can pick up on the absolute lack of firing in the frontal lobe in children who are compromised at birth or by later trauma. And sadly, these children are often born into families that can least handle their challenges. That's the irony.
Waltzingmatilda, it sounds like you and I have been drawn to some of the same children--the severely emotionally disturbed. Thank you for your work. Teachers and helpers like you touched my life is so many positive ways. My husband and I surely did not raise our children on our own. It took the whole village--even the principal who was chased down the street. Dear man just retired. He deserves a rest. And thank you for your work with those unique and special children. It's not easy but it can be rewarding. I'm sure we'd have lots of stories to share.
I have been injured a number of times but it's always been a hard shove, a punch, or being hit with something thrown. And it's usually been my "fault". It was because I pushed too hard or got in someone's face. You have to parent children like this with a calmness and firmness which lacks the element of emotion. No drama allowed, EVER. As my boys grew, I learned to watch my safety as I'm very petite. My husband, who is a large man, was almost always present in the home. We worked with the boys who were raging as a team. I have never been threatened with a weapon. We have never owned a gun nor kept sharp knives in the house for this specific reason. No sticks and no baseball bats were ever on the property. We were careful. I was accosted once by a very mentally unstable foster son with a Kleenex box and an umbrella (because it was our umbrella, it had a blunt tip). I held him at bay for 20 minutes until help arrived.
Oceanblueeyes is correct that anything can be used as a weapon but guns are awfully "easy" and seem impersonal. Little boys also are programed to think that so many actors and video game characters bounce right back. At 10, they are still "magical thinkers". One of our boys (aged 8) literally chased the principal of his elementary school down the middle of main street with a large stick as my husband and I tried to cut him off (gently) with our car. I've seen that rage close up. These are the boys who grow up to be the men who put holes in walls. Our walls were glazed plaster. The children have to be taught to channel that rage as it doesn't simply go away. We've had them run, dig holes, slam balls against a wall. We tried everything. But I never let down my guard around 2 of my sons. Their rage is still a force to contend with. And our boys with the deepest rage were medicated. That medication was carefully doled out and logged. Not a pill was missed. So many children can have tremendously violent reactions to suddenly starting or stopping meds. This is a huge problem for people without consistent medical care.
That said, I do believe that children can be born without a conscience or can lose a conscience due to trauma. This is NOT some sort of evil or shortcoming or choice of theirs, however. I firmly believe, with all my first hand experience and research, that the hard-wiring can be skewed to a degree that a fully developed conscience is just not possible. The edge can be taken off. Some empathy can be taught. Some manners, possibly. But some children will be beyond hope. We've often said that two of our sons are as "good as the supervision they receive". They have no tempering valve and must have their behaviors managed as they absolutely cannot be modified. Everything must be processed in a tight and routinized milieu.
These are the types of children Waltzingmatilda was speaking of. New research is showing that even MRIs can pick up on the absolute lack of firing in the frontal lobe in children who are compromised at birth or by later trauma. And sadly, these children are often born into families that can least handle their challenges. That's the irony.
Waltzingmatilda, it sounds like you and I have been drawn to some of the same children--the severely emotionally disturbed. Thank you for your work. Teachers and helpers like you touched my life is so many positive ways. My husband and I surely did not raise our children on our own. It took the whole village--even the principal who was chased down the street. Dear man just retired. He deserves a rest. And thank you for your work with those unique and special children. It's not easy but it can be rewarding. I'm sure we'd have lots of stories to share.
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Oh my. I just googled 'child with no conscience' and I couldn't believe all the links that came up.
Even blog sites where poor mothers are posting what chilling things their children have done from a very early age on.
One mother said one day she found her son outside sitting on the ground and she went over to ask him what was wrong and then she saw the bird in his hand and the blood. He had twisted off the little bird's neck and it meant nothing to him. He just looked at her with blank eyes.
Are these children anomalies or are more and more children becoming like this?
This is so frightening.
imo
Even blog sites where poor mothers are posting what chilling things their children have done from a very early age on.
One mother said one day she found her son outside sitting on the ground and she went over to ask him what was wrong and then she saw the bird in his hand and the blood. He had twisted off the little bird's neck and it meant nothing to him. He just looked at her with blank eyes.
Are these children anomalies or are more and more children becoming like this?
This is so frightening.
imo
Main question in my opinion is why did this kid have access to ammo? I can see having rifles/shotguns in a gun cabinet (LOCKED, of course), but why loaded guns & why ammo near-by the guns?
Poor parenting choices, again, imo . . .
Poor parenting choices, again, imo . . .
OBE--There have always been children born like this. In decades past, they most likely would have been sent to boarding school, reform school or to an asylum (depending on the family's circumstances). This level of detachment is caused by the child never bonding with a caregiver and thus, learning how to trust. Without that central piece in our psyche, a human being is broken. This is why children who have been exposed to drugs or violence prenatally, institutionalized, been removed for whatever reason from their family of origin, suffered a birth injury, or have even been hospitalized for long periods of time in infancy have a far higher rate of having this disconnect.
These children are often indiscriminately affectionate with non-family members and strangers. They are often charming and coy. After all, because of the lack of a bond, they only trust themselves. And to get what they want, they "play" at society's rules while secretly breaking them.
Depending on the damage to the child's brain, the violence and rage can rear its ugly head at very very young ages. The little girl we adopted from Haiti attempted homicide twice before the age of four years and was very nearly successful. She went on to kill a large dog in another home before she was placed in a treatment center. She would smile and giggle as she hurt someone. It was chilling. She had suffered the loss of her mother to AIDS and almost daily sexual and physical abuse in Haiti which was not disclosed to us.
That one special child taught me all I ever need to know about sick minds, lack of conscience and evil.
These children are often indiscriminately affectionate with non-family members and strangers. They are often charming and coy. After all, because of the lack of a bond, they only trust themselves. And to get what they want, they "play" at society's rules while secretly breaking them.
Depending on the damage to the child's brain, the violence and rage can rear its ugly head at very very young ages. The little girl we adopted from Haiti attempted homicide twice before the age of four years and was very nearly successful. She went on to kill a large dog in another home before she was placed in a treatment center. She would smile and giggle as she hurt someone. It was chilling. She had suffered the loss of her mother to AIDS and almost daily sexual and physical abuse in Haiti which was not disclosed to us.
That one special child taught me all I ever need to know about sick minds, lack of conscience and evil.
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But are they increasing in number?
Did anyone else notice the other videos available on this site?
http://abcnews.go.com/US/ohio-boy-10-shoots-kills-mother/story?id=12529574
Video
Watch: 12-Year-Old a Suspect in Parents' Murder
Watch: 10-Year-Old Shoots and Kills Father
Watch: Cops: Girl Killed Dad in His Sleep
And that doesn't even include this 10 year old who murdered his mother.
Did anyone else notice the other videos available on this site?
http://abcnews.go.com/US/ohio-boy-10-shoots-kills-mother/story?id=12529574
Video
Watch: 12-Year-Old a Suspect in Parents' Murder
Watch: 10-Year-Old Shoots and Kills Father
Watch: Cops: Girl Killed Dad in His Sleep
And that doesn't even include this 10 year old who murdered his mother.
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I do trust in your vast experience Missizzy but there is no evidence that this particular child didn't bond with his mother..yet he murdered her because he didnt want to bring the firewood in the home.
And I don't think being abused is a full proof indicator that a child will develop no conscience. That just doesn't seem reasonable to me since unfortunately so many children yearly suffer from abuse and trauma of some sort and they aren't children without consciences.
With all the literature written for years about these type of children, I don't think they really know for sure what makes all of them like they are. Some of them that have become killers of their parents were known to be very bonded to them and normal average social and well liked children without any past issues. Yet when they do murder often times they have little remorse if any for doing so. Even if they killed their parents for the most nonsensical trivial reasons imaginable.
I do agree that some may develop where they have no conscience because of abuse but not all do because if that was the indicator (abuse and not bonding with their parent) millions of children would become like stone with no feelings whatsoever.
Imo, it remains a mystery of sorts what really makes some of these kids tick and why. Some can be figured out while others it remains unknown as if they were born bad seeds.
IMO
bbm
I'm with you. I dont blame the firearm....but a volatile child with a gun in the house...that's asking for trouble...and mind you I DO NOT blame the mother, she had every right to be safe from her own little boy. I dont know the family dynamics and I will withhold judgement.
my son's father suicided with his brother's gun. the gun was kept locked away seperately from the bullets and he broke into both to retrieve the firearm. we're all of a mind that without a firearm in the house he may well still be here now. I dont blame the firearm for that incident either....but it's so fast with a gun. someone in that state of mind would have to think a lot harder to end his or her self or another person around with any other means.
One positive thing I can say about this kid. IMO He did show some remorse, he ran for help and seemed upset, frantic even.
IMO He's FAR different that the 8 year old that laid in wait, gunned down his dad and dad's roomate in AZ and then lied about it, calm and coldl as a cucumber
A year or two ago there was another lil boy that killed their step parent ( or dad?) he now lives with his mom? Does anyone remember that case? OH wait he killed his dad and some other man? I wish I could find that link. I always wondered what happened.
Problems at school to assault principal.. apparently some anger, some disregard for authority. The could be one of many factors. I do not know inner feelings of him, however there are some. I know some kids bottle up feelings of feelings and even negative attention is a way of saying I need help, or I feel angry, help me.. then again it could be a chemical imbalance. I am curious if he was on medication. ADD/ADHD has componets that bring out rage, defiance and uncontrollabe reactions to many situations.
I wonder if on medication and/or was in therapy. Behavior issues can not be resolved by alternate schools.. child therapist and possibly many years of how to handle anger or outburst.
If not in therapy. I do not blame the mom. Mothers at times are in denial somthing may be off with a child, lack of where to take him, blaming themself for kids behavior.. at time and many times it is not the parent and lack of disipline.. just the cards the child was dealt and help is needed, not to push off on alternative school to get the kid out of a normal school and push him or her off on somewhere else, a lable that could make it worse. I know some thing therapy is a crock... it is not an instant fix but learned bad behavior can be slowly changed. Still a stong chance of chemical imbalance. I home that not just mental testing but mri/cat scans, it has been proven that the examination of the brain can show areas of an imbalance and what part of the brain and what part of the brain it controls.
Yes he deserves punishment and therapy but the circumstances now are going to perhaps scar him for life. I cant imagine a 10 year old being pure evil on this. I could hear in his voice he knew he messed up and needed "help" for mommy.
ohh just so sad. I have my own opinion of guns. I do not allow in home and not even a toy gun. I think a gun has a place if used for hunting even a parents gun. Lock it up and double lock it up.
I can not see a 10 year old ever being prosecuted as an adult.. he is a child.
Just a sad thing to happen.. punishment yes and at least till legal adult age but in an enviroment to help him.. rehab for adult criminals.. perhaps it doesnt work at times but this kid has a chance if they give it to him.
This will be the only post on this subject. I just had to put out my opinion and possible a reason or part of the issue.
God Bless the entire family.
I wonder if on medication and/or was in therapy. Behavior issues can not be resolved by alternate schools.. child therapist and possibly many years of how to handle anger or outburst.
If not in therapy. I do not blame the mom. Mothers at times are in denial somthing may be off with a child, lack of where to take him, blaming themself for kids behavior.. at time and many times it is not the parent and lack of disipline.. just the cards the child was dealt and help is needed, not to push off on alternative school to get the kid out of a normal school and push him or her off on somewhere else, a lable that could make it worse. I know some thing therapy is a crock... it is not an instant fix but learned bad behavior can be slowly changed. Still a stong chance of chemical imbalance. I home that not just mental testing but mri/cat scans, it has been proven that the examination of the brain can show areas of an imbalance and what part of the brain and what part of the brain it controls.
Yes he deserves punishment and therapy but the circumstances now are going to perhaps scar him for life. I cant imagine a 10 year old being pure evil on this. I could hear in his voice he knew he messed up and needed "help" for mommy.
ohh just so sad. I have my own opinion of guns. I do not allow in home and not even a toy gun. I think a gun has a place if used for hunting even a parents gun. Lock it up and double lock it up.
I can not see a 10 year old ever being prosecuted as an adult.. he is a child.
Just a sad thing to happen.. punishment yes and at least till legal adult age but in an enviroment to help him.. rehab for adult criminals.. perhaps it doesnt work at times but this kid has a chance if they give it to him.
This will be the only post on this subject. I just had to put out my opinion and possible a reason or part of the issue.
God Bless the entire family.
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That was the Arizona 8 year old who lay in wait and coldly murdered his father and the man who worked with his father that was renting a room from his dad.
He does not live with his mother.
He was sent to a locked treatment facility where he cannot leave. He will be assessed periodically to see if he is making any progress. I imagine he will probably be there until the age of 18.
I remember one of the court appointed experts said the boy could not be sucessfully treated.
IMO
GrainneDhu
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The same question is asked about school shooters.
The short answer is that an FBI report found that there is a short list of characteristics that are shared by most school shooters... but also by up to 40% of all kids under 19 years old.
Things like feeling bullied or persecuted, depressed, angry, treated unfairly by someone in authority, grades slipping are all characteristics shared by school shooters. But all those things are shared by millions of kids and the vast majority do not end up as school shooters.
So it's easy to look back and say "this kid was showing lots of signs of heading for trouble" but that ignores all the other kids who show the same signs.
In tech talk, the signal gets lost in all the noise.
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Thank you for sharing your thoughts, sherryK. I agree with so much of what you say, and you said so much of it so much better than I could have!
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I strongly suspect that until relatively recently, a lot of child violence was assumed to have been an accident of some sort.
It is sort of like suicide; for many years, many MEs, coroners and LE would do anything they could to call a suicide an accidental death.
In both issues, there was huge stigma attached and an unwillingness to believe that a person could actually do something like that. The prevailing attitude was "we don't talk about things like that."
For a different example, think of Sigmund Freud. Reading his books now, it's clear that a good many of his female patients were the victims of sexual abuse. It was so unthinkable to Freud that so many women were being victimised that this otherwise brilliant man came up with all sorts of convoluted theories rather than face the truth of what his patients were telling him.
For all that the sixties were considered so liberated, my own experience is that silence reigned in many areas.
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I agree with you (and so does research, fwiw).
My own personal theory is that it takes a combination of circumstances: genetic, environment and timing. Change or prevent just one of those factors from coming into play and the conscience develops in a normal way.
I don't think there is a single gene for a predisposition to violence but I do think there are genes that affect risk taking, ability to use logic, speed of emotional development, sociability, etc. Some percentage of people inherit a combination of many genes and modifier genes that could make them more prone to violence.
Environment matters, there's no doubt about that. While there are always exceptions, they are exceptions. For example, someone who is easily overwhelmed and needs help with every little thing that happens to them may have been raised by helicopter parents. Not every child of helicopter parents is easily overwhelmed but enough of them are that a trend can be seen.
Timing also matters. There are developmental windows and once that window closes, it is very difficult for the person to attain that particular skill. For an example of a physical developmental window, children who are born with juvenile cataract(s) have a developmental window of 32 weeks (I think, I can't remember for sure) before they lose the ability to see. Even if the cataract(s) are removed after that age, the brain has already used the wiring that would have been used to process optical input from that eye for other purposes. It is known that there are developmental windows for psychological characteristics as well. There is some evidence that trauma is more damaging during some periods of development than at other periods of development.
My theory is that a child born with a genetic predisposition towards risk taking, impulsiveness and low levels of innate cautiousness (among other factors) who are traumatised during certain specific developmental periods are the ones who grow up without a conscience.
So I think the reason why lack of conscience is extremely rare while child abuse is (unfortunately) not equally rare is because very few children are exposed to all the factors that go into lack of conscience.
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The case was on NG tonight. Just to update, the 10 year old shot his mother with a .22 rifle he got for Christmas. His father and mother are reportedly separated but the boy had a gun rack in his room containing 4 rifles, three .22's and a shotgun. Reportedly given to him by his father.
Based on what I'm hearing about the boys past run in's, it's an extreme lack of judgement on the fathers part.
I know, why not keep the guns at the fathers house. Answer, I don't know.
It wasn't an accident, the boy shot his mother from the his bedroom door.
Based on what I'm hearing about the boys past run in's, it's an extreme lack of judgement on the fathers part.
I know, why not keep the guns at the fathers house. Answer, I don't know.
It wasn't an accident, the boy shot his mother from the his bedroom door.
In many states there are laws that hold the caretakers of children responsible for securing dangerous weapons and keeping them out of reach of children, unless supervised, I believe.
We sure have seen a lot of these cases lately. However, having been an American Studies major (the most fun major ever), I have studied a lot of social history, criminal, etc., and there have been gruesome child killers all along. Nevertheless, when times were simpler, and kids had more responsibility, and news was slower, no access to violent films and games, no access to fast transportation, more of an emphasis on personal responsibility and being a good citizen, I think the overall environment made it less likely for a child to commit such an act. I don't know the stats of whether there are more now, when taking into account the increase in population, but it's possible, given the change in our society.
I don't know if I really believe kids can be born without the ability to acquire a conscience. I think Grainne Dhu summed it up eloquently. So many factors go into turning a kid into a killer. I have read that, for example, many serial killers had suffered some sort of head injury at some point in their lives. Also, many suffered abuse as well of some form. In Ted Bundy's case, there were some experts who believed he and his family were hiding some aspects of his childhood. I know he was raised as his mother's child but he was actually biologically his "sister's" kid. There was some strangeness going on there, is my point. I believe that kids develop into monsters due to various factors but are probably not just born that way. But I don't know for sure.
As far as this kids' access to guns is concerned, many posters have summed up my feelings. A kid with behavioral problems should not have access to any obvious weapons. And such a kid should have intensive intervention and possibly placement outside the home if the parents cannot adequately supervise them. Problem is, I have heard numerous stories about parents with disturbed kids who cannot afford the serious intervention they need and most insurance plans won't pay for hospitalization until the kid hurts someone.
I also think that American kids today, in general, should not have any unsupervised access to guns regardless of whether they are disturbed or not because most kids today are too immature to handle the responsibility. There have been too many accidents at the hands of unsupervised kids with guns. Most kids today are not as self-sufficient or responsible as kids used to be. They don't need to work or hunt to survive for the most part. They remain very vulnerable and less able to control impulses as a result.
Nevertheless, a kid disturbed enough to shoot his own mother would likely have ended up doing something horrible to someone at some point regardless of his access to firearms. I recall a case in Colorado years a go where a 13 year old stabbed two little girls to death in their home. It appeared he had been hunting someone to hurt that day before he ever got to their door. Horrible. But guns are so quick and easy.
What may be good news is that according to one of the best experts around as to psychopaths/sociopaths, while treatment is useless for adults with these personality disorders, tests show that the young brain may be malleable enough for treatment to work and actually change their wiring, if they are young enough when they begin treatment.
OBE--Sorry to be so late with this post but I wanted to clarify one point. As far as I know, physical and/or sexual abuse does not lead to lack of conscience or attachment disorder. It is a much more "organic" disorder which results in the mis-firing of the brain due to prenatal or post-natal trauma. The child is simply predisposed to these lapses if seriously compromised (typically chemically while in utero) or when deprived of the necessary bonding as an infant.
These children are usually the ones who suffer from feeding difficulties, failure to thrive, lack of eye contact, sensory issues, etc. They are not born "cuddly" and thus begins a terrible cycle of not really getting what they need. Their survival skills kick in at some point (usually around 2 years) and they begin taking care of their own needs. They stop asking and simply take. They are not imprinted with pleasing a parent and thus please themselves. No amount of regular discipline or punitive actions matters a whit to them. They absolutely MUST have a full cadre of wrap-around support services if there is to be any hope of improvement. Parents must be trained to be para-professionals and that's often just not possible.
I agree, we have no earthly idea whether or not this child was fully and healthily bonded to his mother or if any of these possible diagnoses might fit. We'll have to wait and see.
I have to say I admire you for spending some time to educate yourself on this growing problem. I'll never forget a high level administrator at DHS telling me that a "tsunami of unattached children" were reaching their teens right now. That's chilling as they did not ask for this disorder and there are so few services to help them. Residential treatment homes for children with attachment disorder start at $4000/month and go up to over $10,000/month. Insurance will rarely pay these costs. Typically a tragedy must first occur before the "system" clicks into place to help.
These children are usually the ones who suffer from feeding difficulties, failure to thrive, lack of eye contact, sensory issues, etc. They are not born "cuddly" and thus begins a terrible cycle of not really getting what they need. Their survival skills kick in at some point (usually around 2 years) and they begin taking care of their own needs. They stop asking and simply take. They are not imprinted with pleasing a parent and thus please themselves. No amount of regular discipline or punitive actions matters a whit to them. They absolutely MUST have a full cadre of wrap-around support services if there is to be any hope of improvement. Parents must be trained to be para-professionals and that's often just not possible.
I agree, we have no earthly idea whether or not this child was fully and healthily bonded to his mother or if any of these possible diagnoses might fit. We'll have to wait and see.
I have to say I admire you for spending some time to educate yourself on this growing problem. I'll never forget a high level administrator at DHS telling me that a "tsunami of unattached children" were reaching their teens right now. That's chilling as they did not ask for this disorder and there are so few services to help them. Residential treatment homes for children with attachment disorder start at $4000/month and go up to over $10,000/month. Insurance will rarely pay these costs. Typically a tragedy must first occur before the "system" clicks into place to help.
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