GUILTY OH - Deborah McVay, 46, murdered, Big Prairie, 2 Jan 2011

[oceanblueeyes]

What I find ironic..

people who feel kids that commit first degree murder deserve a second chance are the very same people yelling about keeping guns under lock & key away from children.


We know not every gun has been involved in a shooting of another human being. The vast majority of even police weapons are never drawn on another human being. Yet those same people want a murderer set free in the HOPE they've been rehabilitated.

Really.... which is more dangerous?

:waitasec:

Exactly and many more times than not when a gun is used it is an illegal gun possessed by a criminal with a rap sheet a mile long.

I have put up links before about how many crimes are thwarted yearly by someone who had access to a legal firearm. Saving 2.5 million people a year from being a crime victim is way way way more lives saved than all 11,000 homicide victims lost each year in our country and like you said .....only 3% of the time was it even necessary to fire the weapon in order to stop the perp. A gun doesn't make someone a killer......killing makes someone a killer... as Andy Rooney has said in the past.

So in this particular case hunting guns are in abidance in that area with very young children learning how to shoot and hunt yet this is the first time ever that a child in that area has taken a gun up and shot their mother. Like I said previously, these kids who kill their parents or siblings or both (for now) are few in number but are they increasing? Imo, I think they are. Just in the last few days I have read about 4 very young kids who murdered one of their parents or both. And it isn't just boys doing it either.

I don't want to have to hope and pray the child is rehabilitated upon release. Lord knows we have enough problems already in this country without putting untreatable youth back on the streets.

I wish every state had a law enacted where if the person (child or adult) is not curable then the courts can step in and protect society... instead of just letting them run loose among us again......cured or not.

Just think if they could have kept Duncan locked up because they all knew he wasnt curable way back in his early years. So many precious lives would have never crossed paths with this sadistic psychopath. It shows the age of the perpetrator really doesn't mean that much. Some can just be evil ....starting out when they were very young.

imo

 

[Sonya610]

I don't know if I really believe kids can be born without the ability to acquire a conscience. I think Grainne Dhu summed it up eloquently. So many factors go into turning a kid into a killer.

Kids can be born without any ability to read social signals or emotion (Aspergers). Kids can be born and become Autistic (genetically related to Aspergers). Kids can be born with Turrets Syndrome. Kid's can be born without the ability to feal pain. Kids can be born with a very low IQ. Kids can be born and run a high (genetic) risk of becoming Schizophrenic.

But the tendency towards violence or sociopathic behavior is completely environmental (i.e. some of their relatives were violent/abusive therefore it proves it was environmental and not genetic!).

That is what separates us from the animals! It is very easy to breed violent tendencies into animals but for humans it is completely different and personal because humans are inheritantly special.

Sarcasm aside, yes environment may play a factor, but often it is simply nature.

 

[Sonya610]

Why they became the way they are becomes less important to me in the end. It is the fact that some of them are cold, unfeeling, remorseless, untreatable and without a conscience that matters to me... because those children will become adults one day and society will once again have to deal with them.

Actually a surprisingly high percentage of the population fits that description (1 in 5 males show sociopathic traits). It is a strength in many ways, when soldiers go onto the battlefield they don't start empathizing, it is a strong biological survival strategy, the other is a "problem" not a person. Same rule applies to a home intruder, they aren't something to empathize with they are an "object" to be dealt with, for most folks that mindset is rare and only if needed, but for others it is just the way they have always thought.

A male coworker once summarized it as "You can't swing a stick without hitting 5 sociopaths on Wallstreet".

If they are reasonably intelligent, having a conscience isn't the issue; instilling rules and behavioral traits (pain/reward) can steer MOST on the right path.

Sure some may be born just plain sadistic and beyond redemption, but that is a small minority and most can be taught logic if they are fairly intelligent. They understand reward and negative consequences (i.e. you don't want to do that...not because it is wrong and not because it will make the other person feel bad...but because it will have really bad consequences for YOU if you do that). Sadly if they aren't identified they are raised by individuals that are equally messed up...which means there is no help for them.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Actually a surprisingly high percentage of the population fits that description (1 in 5 males show sociopathic traits). It is a strength in many ways, when soldiers go onto the battlefield they don't start empathizing, it is a strong biological survival strategy, the other is a "problem" not a person. Same rule applies to a home intruder, they aren't something to empathize with they are an "object" to be dealt with, for most folks that mindset is rare and only if needed, but for others it is just the way they have always thought.

A male coworker once summarized it as "You can't swing a stick without hitting 5 sociopaths on Wallstreet".

If they are reasonably intelligent, having a conscience isn't the issue; instilling rules and behavioral traits (pain/reward) can steer MOST on the right path.

Sure some may be born just plain sadistic and beyond redemption, but that is a small minority and most can be taught logic if they are fairly intelligent. They understand reward and negative consequences (i.e. you don't want to do that...not because it is wrong and not because it will make the other person feel bad...but because it will have really bad consequences for YOU if you do that). Sadly if they aren't identified they are raised by individuals that are equally messed up...which means there is no help for them.

I couldnt find anything about it being 1 out of 5 males but I did find this article although it is quite depressing to read. I think it is both males and females.

CHICAGO — Almost one in five young American adults has a personality disorder that interferes with everyday life, and even more abuse alcohol or drugs, researchers reported Monday in the most extensive study of its kind.

The disorders include problems such as obsessive or compulsive tendencies and anti-social behavior that can sometimes lead to violence. The study also found that fewer than 25 percent of college-aged Americans with mental problems get treatment.

One expert said personality disorders may be overdiagnosed. But others said the results were not surprising since previous, less rigorous evidence has suggested mental problems are common on college campuses and elsewhere.

Experts praised the study's scope — face-to-face interviews about numerous disorders with more than 5,000 young people ages 19 to 25 — and said it spotlights a problem college administrators need to address.

Study co-author Dr. Mark Olfson of Columbia University and New York State Psychiatric Institute called the widespread lack of treatment particularly worrisome. He said it should alert not only "students and parents, but also deans and people who run college mental health services about the need to extend access to treatment."

Particularly vulnerable
Counting substance abuse, the study found that nearly half of young people surveyed have some sort of psychiatric condition, including students and non-students.

Personality disorders were the second most common problem behind drug or alcohol abuse as a single category. The disorders include obsessive, anti-social and paranoid behaviors that are not mere quirks but actually interfere with ordinary functioning.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28002991/ns/health-mental_health/

And imo, these young adults just didnt become this way.

 

[Sonya610]

I couldnt find anything about it being 1 out of 5 males but I did find this article although it is quite depressing to read. I think it is both males and females.

The 1 in 5 males referred to tendencies. The actual count is defined by those sociopaths that carry out atrocious acts and end up diagnosed and imprisoned. Anyone ever include Madoff in the sociopath statistics? Nope. FYI therapy doesn't work for sociopaths; they learn and absorb and it can give them skills that only make matters worse for those around them.

And heck yeah 1 in 5 has some "problem". OCD is extremely common, as is depression. The violence thing is most definitely taking the "entire U.S." population into account in a very PC way.

Don't read too much into the 1/5 thing, 150 years ago 1/5 had problems too they just didn't call it out as a mental disorder.

 

[gitana1]

Kids can be born without any ability to read social signals or emotion (Aspergers). Kids can be born and become Autistic (genetically related to Aspergers). Kids can be born with Turrets Syndrome. Kid's can be born without the ability to feal pain. Kids can be born with a very low IQ. Kids can be born and run a high (genetic) risk of becoming Schizophrenic.

But the tendency towards violence or sociopathic behavior is completely environmental (i.e. some of their relatives were violent/abusive therefore it proves it was environmental and not genetic!).

That is what separates us from the animals! It is very easy to breed violent tendencies into animals but for humans it is completely different and personal because humans are inheritantly special.

Sarcasm aside, yes environment may play a factor, but often it is simply nature.

I did not say that the tendency towards violence or sociopathic behavior is completely environmental. However, I shy away from a completely "nature" argument for pathology over a "nurture" one. Especially since the nature argument has been used to fate certain groups of people, like blacks, to a tendency towards violence. I believe both environment and genetics or physiology affect pathology. Including autism, which millions of parents do not believe their children were born with, schizophrenia, which seems to have genetic component but which may have a trigger such as a virus, and even Tourette's syndrome, which children are usually not born with but acquire with age, a disease thought to have both neurological and psychological components.

I guess I really don't believe anyone is born with no ability to form a conscious. (And I don't think kids are born with an automatic conscious. I think it's taught or triggered). I could be wrong but I don't really buy the bad seed theory or the theory that children who commit hideous acts are irredeemable monsters. I think of things I did and thought as a child, with little ability to control my emotions or to foresee consequences, and how that changed as I grew. I think of cases of children who did horrid things as kids, like ten year old Mary Bell, a cold-blooded murderer who seemed as sociopathic as can be and who now is a mother who has never been in trouble with the law since. I guess I tend to err on the side of rehabitability when it comes to kids, depending on their age.

 

[gitana1]

FYI therapy doesn't work for sociopaths, they learn and absorb and it can give them skills that only make matters worse for those around them. And heck yeah 1 in 5 has some "problem". OCD is extremely common, as is Depression. The violence thing is most definitely taking the "entire U.S." population into account in a very PC way.

Don't read too much into the 1/5 thing, 150 years ago 1/5 had problems too they just didn't call it out as a mental disorder.

I've seen the 1/5 reference too, either in Dr. Hare's research or in the book The Sociopath Next Door. Fascinating.

 

[peeples]

Oh my. I just googled 'child with no conscience' and I couldn't believe all the links that came up.

Even blog sites where poor mothers are posting what chilling things their children have done from a very early age on.

One mother said one day she found her son outside sitting on the ground and she went over to ask him what was wrong and then she saw the bird in his hand and the blood. He had twisted off the little bird's neck and it meant nothing to him. He just looked at her with blank eyes.

Are these children anomalies or are more and more children becoming like this?

This is so frightening.

imo

I have an adopted child that meets all 3 of the serial killer Triad but other times he's the most lovable sweet child you'd ever meet. Until you've been a parent of a child who is not "normal" please try not to judge...
As parents of these children there is only so much you can legally do. YOu are not legally allowed to lock them in their rooms at night to keep yourself safe, so instead must alarm everything door, window and drawer in the house, put every pair of scissors, knife or anything with a point in a safe and keep a running count. TO keep everyone safe it's like living in a prison. Sometimes as parents we try and try and sometimes it's just not our fault. There is hardly any resources at ALL for these children.

It's really hard when the child you love threatens to cut everyone in the house into little pieces and then 20 minutes later looks up at you like the little toe headed boy he is and says i'm so sorry and starts crying and saying I love you.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Not to stray from the story -- but was this in an area where folks (even kids) were known to have guns. When we lived in the mountains (for about 9 months) I was shocked at all the guns the kids had. Sure, there were mountain lions, bears, etc. But I could never figure out why the parents were so keen on handing out guns to their kids. Needless to say, I'm glad were back in the city.

MOO

Mel

I live in a rural area in a rural state. No mountain lions or bears here but lots of kids hunt.

Many of the school districts in this state have a day off for the first day of pheasant season and the first day of deer season. The state itself has a junior hunter day for pheasant and for deer, on which only hunters under age 19 can legally take game.

My neighbour, who used to own the house I live in now, has a passel of kids. I think they have nine. He comes over to ask permission to hunt our land every deer season and to show me the tags (so that I know it's all legal).

He isn't using his kids to get more tags, his kids hunt their own tags.

For them, it's a way to put meat in the freezer and save money. They aren't poor but with nine kids and the eldest only 19 years old, that's a lot of kids to put through college. Everything they can do to put money away for college, they do.

What I see in his kids that I don't often see in city kids is a sense of responsibility and pride in their role in the family. Hunting is a chore for them rather than a recreational activity, just as gardening is a chore for them.

They're proud of their contributions to their family and they are polite kids who are a delight to be around.

Last fall, they scouted my windbreak and realised a little herd of does was routinely bedding down in it. They were able to get their limit in a place where they could pull the dually right up next to the carcasses. They came in to thank me again for letting them hunt our land and said enthusiastically that it was the best hunt EVAH because it was so easy afterwards.

I've seen for myself that my neighbour and his kids are safe hunters who do not cause unnecessary suffering.

It doesn't bother me at all that his kids use guns. I trust them a lot more than I trust any adult hunter who thinks a vital piece of hunting equipment is the cooler full of beer.

 

[Missizzy]

peeples--My heart goes out to you as those are my children too. Very few people do understand. Our eight special needs children are adopted so we had a little more leeway. Imagine our surprise to start DD foster care and to be told that we could never "suggest a restriction of egress" IOW...no standing in doorways, no telling a disabled child they cannot leave the house naked in a snow storm. No restraints or "perception" of restraints in any way. No, the only option is to call LE and they bring the child home again and again until they are tired and hungry enough to stay. I've had as many as 14 police calls in a single day!! And each one has to have a full incident report and a staffing.

Trust me, I know. I'm working right now with a mom who has a teen child adopted from Africa and she's at wits end. I'm trying to find services as the child is threatening violence on a daily basis. Add in the fact that the mother is a LEO and has decades of experience with troubled children.

(((Hugs to you)))

 

[GrainneDhu]

From what I have read through the years children that exhibit psychopathic traits (conduct disorder) cannot be cured.

SBM

There are problems with diagnosis, though. In psychiatric evaluation of children, a lot of any diagnosis is educated guessing. There isn't the same level of certainty that there is with adults. Without trying to treat each child, there is no way to know which child can be rehabilitated successfully and which cannot.

For example, Mary Bell was a 10/11 year old in England when she killed two small children (with the participation of her friend). Mary had been severely abused by her mother, including pimped out by her mother starting at age four years. It is strongly suspected that Mary's mother tried to kill Mary several times when she was a small child (before she discovered Mary's income generating potential).

At the trial, experts said that Mary had psychopathic traits and she was committed to treatment on an indefinite basis in 1968.

In 1980, she was released from treatment. She had a daughter in 1984 and is living an ordinary, law abiding life except for recurrent problems with news media figuring out her location and harassing both her and her daughter.

As she is now 53 years old, it seems safe to say that treatment was effective in her case.

 

[Sonya610]

I think of cases of children who did horrid things as kids, like ten year old Mary Bell, a cold-blooded murderer who seemed as sociopathic as can be and who now is a mother who has never been in trouble with the law since. I guess I tend to err on the side of rehabitability when it comes to kids, depending on their age.

I remember reading Mary Bell was likely poisoned by her mother (poisoning which likely lead to the horrid and highly unusual crimes).

 

[Sonya610]

I have an adopted child that meets all 3 of the serial killer Triad but other times he's the most lovable sweet child you'd ever meet. Until you've been a parent of a child who is not "normal" please try not to judge...
As parents of these children there is only so much you can legally do. YOu are not legally allowed to lock them in their rooms at night to keep yourself safe, so instead must alarm everything door, window and drawer in the house, put every pair of scissors, knife or anything with a point in a safe and keep a running count. TO keep everyone safe it's like living in a prison. Sometimes as parents we try and try and sometimes it's just not our fault. There is hardly any resources at ALL for these children.

It's really hard when the child you love threatens to cut everyone in the house into little pieces and then 20 minutes later looks up at you like the little toe headed boy he is and says i'm so sorry and starts crying and saying I love you.

Wow. Yes once you legally adopt them there are often no resources that will take the child.

I had a friend (we both rescued dogs, that is how we knew each other) that fostered a couple of abused toddlers (brother/sister) for many years. One of them was 9 (cute girl, I had her at my house and made a princess costume for her one year, she bonded with strangers instantly, strangers and family were all the same, I am not generally fond of kids but she was so cute I sewed a costume for her and had her at the house for hours, she was adorable and so sweet!). Anyways, the kid was disturbed. A while later things got bad and she started telling her foster mother (my friend) "If the house was on fire and you were screaming...I would go outside and listen to you scream" and "What would happen if I took a knife and stabbed the birds?" (they had a number of parrots, my friend acted non-chalant and hid all the knives). And other ultra creepy stuff. Yeah the kid and her brother (who was a chronic bed wetter at 13) were abused severely and nearly starved when they were very young (not to imply it wasn't genetic, the biological parents were also obviously nuts).

Really really creepy stuff. Stuff the girl had THOUGHT ABOUT and wasn't just saying in the moment (if the house were on fire etc...). Fortunately the state was still liable as it was a foster situation. I have also heard about people (single women to be specific) that adopted cute need disturbed kids and then were afraid to come back to their house when the "cute kid" was a ferral 16 year old that threatened to kill them (the state did nothing, it was a legal adoption and until a crime can be proven etc....)

 

[kgeaux]

I wish every state had a law enacted where if the person (child or adult) is not curable then the courts can step in and protect society... instead of just letting them run loose among us again......cured or not
imo

I agree with much of your post, but I do question this statement. If someone were to be CURED of mental illness---just as one might be cure of a physical illness, such as cancer---you would still want them to not be loose in the general public?

To me "cured" means the previous condition has ceased to be, isn't an issue any more.....that the mind has been restored to perfect health.

 

[kgeaux]

Kids can be born without any ability to read social signals or emotion (Aspergers). Kids can be born and become Autistic (genetically related to Aspergers). Kids can be born with Turrets Syndrome. Kid's can be born without the ability to feal pain. Kids can be born with a very low IQ. Kids can be born and run a high (genetic) risk of becoming Schizophrenic.

But the tendency towards violence or sociopathic behavior is completely environmental (i.e. some of their relatives were violent/abusive therefore it proves it was environmental and not genetic!).

That is what separates us from the animals! It is very easy to breed violent tendencies into animals but for humans it is completely different and personal because humans are inheritantly special.

Sarcasm aside, yes environment may play a factor, but often it is simply nature.

While I appreciate your sarcasm, I do not believe that sociopathy has ever been attributed to nature alone. If I recall correctly, everything I've ever studied on sociopathy has blamed NATURE and NURTURE.

IOW, A child with natural tendencies toward sociopathy who is properly nurtured will not become a sociopath. Likewise, a child with no tendencies toward sociopathy who is not nurtured correctly will Not become a sociopath.

It seems to be, in the words of one popular study, a "marriage" of nurture and nature that results in a sociopathic individual.

In reference to the child this thread is about, we simply do not know enough at this point to be able to discern whether his nature alone, or his nurture alone, or a combination of the two resulted in his killing his mother.

Ten years old is VERY young. Most experts on brain development will agree that the 10 year old brain is quite immature and completely incapable of functioning on the level of an adult.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I live in a rural area in a rural state. No mountain lions or bears here but lots of kids hunt.

Many of the school districts in this state have a day off for the first day of pheasant season and the first day of deer season. The state itself has a junior hunter day for pheasant and for deer, on which only hunters under age 19 can legally take game.

My neighbour, who used to own the house I live in now, has a passel of kids. I think they have nine. He comes over to ask permission to hunt our land every deer season and to show me the tags (so that I know it's all legal).

He isn't using his kids to get more tags, his kids hunt their own tags.

For them, it's a way to put meat in the freezer and save money. They aren't poor but with nine kids and the eldest only 19 years old, that's a lot of kids to put through college. Everything they can do to put money away for college, they do.

What I see in his kids that I don't often see in city kids is a sense of responsibility and pride in their role in the family. Hunting is a chore for them rather than a recreational activity, just as gardening is a chore for them.

They're proud of their contributions to their family and they are polite kids who are a delight to be around.

Last fall, they scouted my windbreak and realised a little herd of does was routinely bedding down in it. They were able to get their limit in a place where they could pull the dually right up next to the carcasses. They came in to thank me again for letting them hunt our land and said enthusiastically that it was the best hunt EVAH because it was so easy afterwards.

I've seen for myself that my neighbour and his kids are safe hunters who do not cause unnecessary suffering.

It doesn't bother me at all that his kids use guns. I trust them a lot more than I trust any adult hunter who thinks a vital piece of hunting equipment is the cooler full of beer.

Your story reminds me of the many countless families that hunt together in the South, where I live, and I find these families are much more closely bonded with each other... than a lot of other families where the children do not interact much with the families and just sits and plays computer games all day or hangs out at the malls.

A lot of them do not have to hunt to provide meat for their families but they all eat the meat they kill because it is much healthier than beef or pork and they love the closeness it brings between the children (both girls and boys) and their parents/grandparents etc. Many women hunt game here where I live. So hunting usually involves the entire family.

You are right these children take pride in what they do and how they know they must respect the weapon at all times and be responsible. I cant remember a case here where a child from a hunting family killed one of their parents.

Hunting is a wonderful bonding experience when both the adult family members and the children share one on one time together. Here, if the child is under the age of 12, they are never put in a deer stand by themselves. An adult is always with them.

Some of the happiest memories I have is the closeness I have felt as our family hunted wild game together.

IMO

 

[dgfred]

What I find ironic..

people who feel kids that commit first degree murder deserve a second chance are the very same people yelling about keeping guns under lock & key away from children.


We know not every gun has been involved in a shooting of another human being. The vast majority of even police weapons are never drawn on another human being. Yet those same people want a murderer set free in the HOPE they've been rehabilitated.

Really.... which is more dangerous?

:waitasec:

I don't see an irony.

IMO a kid who was severely abused, or has some mental disorder... where guns/ammo are left readily available would deserve a second chance IF they were rehabilitated.

and since IMO no child below at least 10 should ever have a weapon anyway (much less multiple guns and ammo in his room)... if this was the case 'maybe' the child would have been unable to shoot and kill the parent. IMO it does reduce the chances.

What is the irony in that? I'm confused by what you mean Linda.

 

[waltzingmatilda]

OBE, Your post reminded me of fond memories when my son received his first BB gun at age 12. We didn't hunt wild game, but we had pie pans tied
from the trees in the wooded lot next door! I so enjoyed those days of teaching him gun safety and shooting with him. It truly was a bonding experience!!!!

wm

 

[dgfred]

I also remember much fun with BB guns. And some fairly dangerous things we did. One of my friends got hit in the corner of his eye... no permanent damage, and I actually got a BB shot into my arm. It stuck below my elbow and I had to go to my doctor to get it pried out. Embarrassing.

Of course that was not the same as having rifles, shotguns and ammo in my room from age 8-10. Not sure what would have happened then if I was left unsupervised for long periods, or even had some mental disorder. I'd like to say nothing would have happened... but I can not be 100% sure.

 

[gitana1]

With the recent New Mexico case, i started thinking about other cases where kids have killed parents or family and wondered what has happened. In this case, the boy has twice been deemed not competent to stand trial because he is too immature and too traumatized by the murder he committed, to effectively assist in his defense. He lives in a treatment facility in another county, but has 8 hour passes to visit family and attends a mainstream school.

It is thought he may be ready for trial this summer: http://www.cantonrep.com/news/x1783186657/Still-no-ruling-on-young-murder-suspect-in-Holmes-County