OH - Dr. William Husel accused of murdering 25 patients w/ Fentanyl Overdoses, Franklin Co, 2019 *not guilty*

[MsFacetious]

This is what my daughter says. She worked there as an RN. She said every single med they gave was tracked. one time she accidentally messed up disposing of a medication (her first few weeks working there) and was written up immediately.

Now they have patients dying of legionnaires disease. People that worked on that building locally kept saying how poorly it was built and that something was going to happen.

What are her thoughts on this?

 

[kaykay543]

What are her thoughts on this?

She thinks there had to be people in the pharmacy in on it. She said those alerts go to them and they would have to override all those doses. So the head pharmacists had to know what was happening.

She also felt (in her opinion) it wasn’t fair to blame the nurses. She said they could NEVER question a Dr for fear of being fired. She did it once with a different Dr and was told never question a Dr again even though the head of nursing knew she was right.

She said it was one of the worst places she ever worked.

 

[kaykay543]

I know this isn't exactly on topic but I feel it applies as it shows how bad the Mt Carmel hospitals are. Multiple lawsuits already filed. Like I said locals that worked on this building tried like crazy to warn everyone how poorly built this new building was. No one would listen. I wouldn't take my dog to any Mt Carmel hospital. Hubby went there one time years ago and was miss diagnosed. After that I said never again and started taking him to OSU

Mount Carmel Grove City Legionnaires’ outbreak result of improperly disinfected hot water system

 

[Bugurl747]

"In the wake of the admission, to date, there have been three lawsuits filed against the hospital, part of the Trinity Health System, by family members of patients who died following those excessive doses of fentanyl prescribed by Dr. William S. Husel. In at least one case, registered nurse Tyler Rudman and pharmacist Talon Schroyer are also named in the lawsuits, in addition to the hospital and Husel, for wrongful death and neglect."

Mount Carmel Hospital Fentanyl Scandal: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know | Heavy.com

Tyler received his RN license 03/21/2013. Board action is listed as pending.
Talon Schroyer received his pharmacy license 06/26/2014. No Board action at this time.

 

[Bugurl747]

She thinks there had to be people in the pharmacy in on it. She said those alerts go to them and they would have to override all those doses. So the head pharmacists had to know what was happening.

She also felt (in her opinion) it wasn’t fair to blame the nurses. She said they could NEVER question a Dr for fear of being fired. She did it once with a different Dr and was told never question a Dr again even though the head of nursing knew she was right.

She said it was one of the worst places she ever worked.

It sounds like she got out of that hospital due to the toxic environment and the liability realization. There has been a nursing shortage for quite sometime and there are jobs everywhere. One should never risk their license and future in an unsafe environment.

I do disagree with your daughter @kaykay543 regarding excusing nurse involvement. I may feel slightly sympathetic to a novice nurse who may not yet be as aware as more senior nurses, but that is not an excuse.

We are taught in nursing school accountability of actions and scope of practice. Questions need to be asked novice or not. We are responsible and accountable for people's lives. That is what we signed up for knowingly.

As a nurse, we are our patient's advocate and moral courage is a must.

Allowing a pass sets a dangerous precedent, IMO.

 

[kaykay543]

It sounds like she got out of that hospital due to the toxic environment and the liability realization. There has been a nursing shortage for quite sometime and there are jobs everywhere. One should never risk their license and future in an unsafe environment.

I do disagree with your daughter @kaykay543 regarding excusing nurse involvement. I may feel slightly sympathetic to a novice nurse who may not yet be as aware as more senior nurses, but that is not an excuse.

We are taught in nursing school accountability of actions and scope of practice. Questions need to be asked novice or not. We are responsible and accountable for people's lives. That is what we signed up for knowingly.

As a nurse, we are our patient's advocate and moral courage is a must.

Allowing a pass sets a dangerous precedent, IMO.

Yes she got out as soon as she could. There is no nursing shortage in Ohio. There are actually too many right now as a result of the recession. Many that were laid off went to nursing school. Ohio gave incentives to people on unemployment to go to school which is what she (and thousands of others) did.

It’s very hard right now for a new nurse in Ohio to get experience after graduating. Most have take whatever they can get in a hospital or a nursing home (with horrible hours) just to get experience. My daughter was top of her class with excellent recommendations and still struggled to get her first job.

Obviously my daughter did question a doctor but many wouldn’t have the courage (especially new nurses) to do it and lose their job. Also Mt Carmel said publicly that they encourage nurses to question things which is a huge lie.

 

[mickey2942]

Yes she got out as soon as she could. There is no nursing shortage in Ohio. There are actually too many right now as a result of the recession. Many that were laid off went to nursing school. Ohio gave incentives to people on unemployment to go to school which is what she (and thousands of others) did.

It’s very hard right now for a new nurse in Ohio to get experience after graduating. Most have take whatever they can get in a hospital or a nursing home (with horrible hours) just to get experience. My daughter was top of her class with excellent recommendations and still struggled to get her first job.

Obviously my daughter did question a doctor but many wouldn’t have the courage (especially new nurses) to do it and lose their job. Also Mt Carmel said publicly that they encourage nurses to question things which is a huge lie.

Question a doctor, pharmacist, or nurse manager, your days are numbered. Notice problems in a patient's chart, say something, you are the problem.

That is why patients need to have a family member who is directly involved and actively managing their care.

 

[jjenny]

Question a doctor, pharmacist, or nurse manager, your days are numbered. Notice problems in a patient's chart, say something, you are the problem.

That is why patients need to have a family member who is directly involved and actively managing their care.

In this particular case, it doesn't sound like any family members were told their relative is getting a lethal dose of pain medication. Some reportedly weren't told about pain medication at all. How would family manage care if family isn't told what's going on? Pharmacist should know a large dose of pain meds is being dispensed, nurse should know she is injecting a large dose. Family wouldn't necessarily have any of this information.

 

[Bryant_Denny]

“A new wrongful death lawsuit filed against Mount Carmel Health System and Dr. William Husel involves a previously unidentified patient.

The lawsuit also names two other physicians, a nurse and pharmacist alleging that this patient’s death was hastened by a fatal dose of the powerful painkiller fentanyl.”

“The hospital says despite the lawsuit, they are confident this person was not one of the people affected by Dr. Husel’s actions.”

So now, after all this comes to a head, we have members of the medical staff coming forward and reporting AFTER THE FACT? This investigation will go on for quite some time. And according to the article, Husel may not have been the only MD playing God.

ETA: Death on 6/23/18

New wrongful death lawsuit filed against Husel, Mount Carmel

 

[mickey2942]

In this particular case, it doesn't sound like any family members were told their relative is getting a lethal dose of pain medication. Some reportedly weren't told about pain medication at all. How would family manage care if family isn't told what's going on? Pharmacist should know a large dose of pain meds is being dispensed, nurse should know she is injecting a large dose. Family wouldn't necessarily have any of this information.

Just the presence of family in a patient's room, may make a difference. A doctor who wants to kill someone, is more likely to kill a patient who doesn't have an involved family.

 

[Ksprincess2]

Question a doctor, pharmacist, or nurse manager, your days are numbered. Notice problems in a patient's chart, say something, you are the problem.

That is why patients need to have a family member who is directly involved and actively managing their care.

This thread is making me grateful for the hospitals I've worked at. I have never been scared to question a Dr., pharmacist or supervisor. We always call Doctors for clarification on orders if they don't seem right, I have no problem calling and saying "hey Dr. So&so did you mean to order this dose because that's much higher than is typically ordered". As a nurse it's my job to advocate for my patients and yes a Dr. may be pissy about being called but they know we are there to check their orders for them because they are busy and can easily make mistakes. If I ever saw an order for 1000mcg Fentanyl I would be calling asap and saying "I'm assuming you meant 100mcg correct?"

I don't know any nurse who would risk their license to keep their job. I worked at one place where I felt there were unsafe practices when I was a new nurse and left after 6 weeks because if I lost my license my career is over for good not just until I can find a new job.

 

[jjenny]

Just the presence of family in a patient's room, may make a difference. A doctor who wants to kill someone, is more likely to kill a patient who doesn't have an involved family.

From what has been reported, it sounds to me that at least some of the families were there when ventilators were removed, or prior, since this doctor had discussions with them about their dying relative's condition. In addition Dr. would tell the families their relatives were brain dead before removing the ventilators. So the families were involved and had discussions with this Dr., and it didn't stop him.

 

[YESorNO]

Husel Turns Himself In, Charged with Twenty-Five Counts of Murder

June 14, 2019

"...If convicted, Husel could spend fifteen years to life in prison for each count, according to Franklin County prosecutor Ron O’Brien. He added, “By giving fentanyl at these levels, we were comfortable with the information we had that it was a sufficient amount that the only rational purpose could be to shorten a person’s life.”

The murders Husel is charged with committing spanned from February 2015 to November 2018, according to the court docket. O’Brien said Mount Carmel Hospital suspects Husel in 35 patient deaths. A partial timeline of events leading up to the charges follows:..."

Husel Turns Himself In, Charged with Twenty-Five Counts of Murder -

 

[jjenny]

Yes she got out as soon as she could. There is no nursing shortage in Ohio. There are actually too many right now as a result of the recession. Many that were laid off went to nursing school. Ohio gave incentives to people on unemployment to go to school which is what she (and thousands of others) did.

It’s very hard right now for a new nurse in Ohio to get experience after graduating. Most have take whatever they can get in a hospital or a nursing home (with horrible hours) just to get experience. My daughter was top of her class with excellent recommendations and still struggled to get her first job.

Obviously my daughter did question a doctor but many wouldn’t have the courage (especially new nurses) to do it and lose their job. Also Mt Carmel said publicly that they encourage nurses to question things which is a huge lie.

In this particular case, it doesn't sound like the doctor was injecting patients personally (unlike Dr. Swango). Apparently nurses were doing the injections, at the doctor's order, but still... I am kind of surprised prosecutor only plans to charge the doctor, because one would think nurses should know that so much fentanyl is likely going to be lethal. Also shocking that it went on for so long, because this guy was obtaining large doses of fentanyl regularly through the hospital system, and no one thought to ask questions until so many people died? It doesn't sound like he was even hiding what he was doing. That it wasn't caught sooner by the hospital is mind boggling.

 

[kaykay543]

In this particular case, it doesn't sound like the doctor was injecting patients personally (unlike Dr. Swango). Apparently nurses were doing the injections, at the doctor's order, but still... I am kind of surprised prosecutor only plans to charge the doctor, because one would think nurses should know that so much fentanyl is likely going to be lethal. Also shocking that it went on for so long, because this guy was obtaining large doses of fentanyl regularly through the hospital system, and no one thought to ask questions until so many people died? It doesn't sound like he was even hiding what he was doing. That it wasn't caught sooner by the hospital is mind boggling.

It is mind boggling that it went on this long. I do think his wife will be charged soon. Imo she knew what he was doing and gave at least one of the fatal shots

I do know on our local news they interviewed a male nurse that worked with this Dr. He said that he had a way of manipulating other drs and nurses into thinking this was okay. He said he would sit down and go into these long monologues about how this was best for the patients etc

 

[Doghairrules]

Jumping in here...

Why did an Ohio doctor allegedly kill 25 patients? A motive remains a mystery. — NBC News

I wonder how they think nurses would not know that these were potentially lethal doses? That doesn’t sound right to me.

 

[MsFacetious]

Just the presence of family in a patient's room, may make a difference. A doctor who wants to kill someone, is more likely to kill a patient who doesn't have an involved family.

Also, a family member in the room is DEFINITELY going to notice if you pull out 20 vials and start to draw them up!

In my family we haven't had the option, we've had to remain in the hospital full time with our mother when she's there. It simply doesn't matter how many times it's noted in her chart, on the white board, even on an allergy tag around her wrist... someone ALWAYS tries to give her something she's allergic to.

So, one of us kids is there the entire time. This would never happen in that type of situation. It's quite sad that not everybody can do that.

 

[YESorNO]

Attorneys argue Husel, Mount Carmel civil suits in court

Jun 18, 2019

"The attorney for Dr. William Husel is requesting a stay in the civil proceedings his client still faces, while the criminal case against the doctor continues....

On Tuesday, Husel’s civil attorney argued in court that the doctor would assert his Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination if deposed in any of the wrongful death proceedings.

“Because of the criminal charges, he can’t defend himself,” said Gregory Foliano. “He can not testify. I can not appropriately defend him without revealing to prosecutors the underlying defenses in the criminal case.”..."

Attorneys argue Husel, Mount Carmel civil suits in court
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Federal Agency Clears Mount Carmel West Of Safety Issues

Jun 18, 2019

"The federal Centers for Medicare and Medicaid have accepted a corrective action plan from Mount Carmel West, the hospital announced Tuesday.

“Nearly all of these improvement areas relate to the physical environment of the facilities,” reads a statement from the hospital...."

Federal Agency Clears Mount Carmel West Of Safety Issues

 

[Doghairrules]

Attorneys argue Husel, Mount Carmel civil suits in court

Jun 18, 2019

"The attorney for Dr. William Husel is requesting a stay in the civil proceedings his client still faces, while the criminal case against the doctor continues....

On Tuesday, Husel’s civil attorney argued in court that the doctor would assert his Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination if deposed in any of the wrongful death proceedings.

“Because of the criminal charges, he can’t defend himself,” said Gregory Foliano. “He can not testify. I can not appropriately defend him without revealing to prosecutors the underlying defenses in the criminal case.”..."

Attorneys argue Husel, Mount Carmel civil suits in court
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Federal Agency Clears Mount Carmel West Of Safety Issues

Jun 18, 2019

"The federal Centers for Medicare and Medicaid have accepted a corrective action plan from Mount Carmel West, the hospital announced Tuesday.

“Nearly all of these improvement areas relate to the physical environment of the facilities,” reads a statement from the hospital...."

Federal Agency Clears Mount Carmel West Of Safety Issues

Wonder how improving the physical environment is going to keep this from happening again???

 

[Bugurl747]

Wonder how improving the physical environment is going to keep this from happening again???

If one person felt like they had a voice, spoke up, and refused to fulfill one of the physician's lethal orders, that patient would not have died under those circumstances.

A toxic work environment can prevent accountability and keep one from asking questions for fear of retaliation whether it be from their piers, physicians, or management. Being able to ask questions is vital to great patient care and saves lives.

It is clear there were some big issues hospital wide and a change in physical environment or the culture of a unit is a very basic but vital start. They will have to clean house, IMO, and start from the top down.

If you can google toxic healthcare workplace you can read more about what I am referring to.

MOO