OH - Ohio State University Rampage, 28 November 2016

[*Lash*]

Exactly. We have heard nothing. It seems like everyone who is a mass type killer has had issues. Abuse. Witnessing abuse. Diagnosis of mental illness. On medication for mental health issues. I do not think people who are loved turn into killers

Do you think the culture where he was raised during his adolescence years had any influence on this alleged "mental illness"? Somali, Pakistan and then coming to the US is a major, huge adjustment. I highly doubt while in Pakistan he never experienced a single conversation disparaging the "evil" America. The ideology America is the Great Satan. It is very difficult to "unlearn" learned behavior.

ETA - Sure, maybe his cortisol levels were elevated in the past week. What created the elevation? Maybe his grievances towards not enough prayer areas or a paper due on micro aggressions? My cortisol levels increase every morning when I have coffee add in a distressing family emergency and they're really elevated. I've not once mowed anyone down or stabbed someone in the face.

 

[Tawny]

Our government does not know if he was a radical Islamic terrorist or not. They did read his own words where he claimed to be one, and they do know that he followed the instructions that ISIS has put forth---to use vehicles and knives to kill infidels. But they still 'do not know' if he is a radical Islamic Terrorist...:eyeroll:

You clearly seem to be unable to understand the point which is there is a difference between having actual ties to the organization and being a crazy person who is using that organization as an excuse to do violence.

Right - because maybe someone hacked his FB only minutes before because they had a premonition he was going to go on a murderous rampage.

Nice mental gymnastics used there to twist what people are saying. See above. Just because someone SAYS Satan made them murder people, doesn't mean Satan himself rose up out of Hell to instruct that person. Same applies. He can SAY he's doing it for ISIS till he's blue in the face (or dead), doesn't mean they had contact with him. What's difficult to understand here?

With regard to comments about Artan possibly being an "injustice collector", consider the impact of the class he was taking which REQUIRED him to identify and report on "microagressions" as a mandatory class assignment, on his already supposed "weak and traumatized" state of mind.

Maybe we should stop encouraging and allowing this faux-scholarly fantasy of "study" at the univerisity level, and call it what it really is. Because IMO, the highly impressionable, impulsive, and weak minds of some of the students just can't process this kind of intellectual dishonesty for what it actually is, and it's encouraging them to do all kinds of things that are illegal and "unwise." Critical thinking is all but dead, IMO.

Anti-intellectualism at it's best.

Well, we could cut down on importing young men from countries that have a history of terrorist connections. And we can find other ways to help support the refugee families. Maybe they should reintegrate into Muslim majority countries where they will feel more at home and at peace.

Maybe we could find better ways to vet the families we do open our borders to. And maybe we can be more transparent and not pretend that there are not issues with this situation?

Until you show me where this kid has actual ties to an actual ISIS entity, I'm working off the knowledge we have, that he's no more than another Rodgers or Roof, acting out in violence and using a terrorist organization as his "reason". Show me those ties, I'll wait.

Do you think the culture where he was raised during his adolescence years had any influence on this alleged "mental illness"? Somali, Pakistan and then coming to the US is a major, huge adjustment. I highly doubt while in Pakistan he never experienced a single conversation disparaging the "evil" America. The ideology America is the Great Satan. It is very difficult to "unlearn" learned behavior.

ETA - Sure, maybe his cortisol levels were elevated in the past week. What created the elevation? Maybe his grievances towards not enough prayer areas or a paper due on micro aggressions? My cortisol levels increase every morning when I have coffee add in a distressing family emergency and they're really elevated. I've not once mowed anyone down or stabbed someone in the face.

Funny how few of these alleged "radical Islamist" attacks actually happen here in the US vs how many immigrants are here from those countries and THEY never commit violence. Explanation?

 

[Tawny]

If we want to ACTUALLY address these rampage killings, we have to look at the real, true motive of the attacker, in each case. Easy outs never solve anything, and I honestly feel that in this particular case, ISIS is the "easy out". JMHO. I know all of us want these killings to stop, but preventing immigration won't stop them, because this rampage, IMHO, is another "campus rampage" and should be treated as such.

 

[K_Z]

Do you think the culture where he was raised during his adolescence years had any influence on this alleged "mental illness"? Somali, Pakistan and then coming to the US is a major, huge adjustment. I highly doubt while in Pakistan he never experienced a single conversation disparaging the "evil" America. The ideology America is the Great Satan. It is very difficult to "unlearn" learned behavior.

ETA - Sure, maybe his cortisol levels were elevated in the past week. What created the elevation? Maybe his grievances towards not enough prayer areas or a paper due on micro aggressions? My cortisol levels increase every morning when I have coffee add in a distressing family emergency and they're really elevated. I've not once mowed anyone down or stabbed someone in the face.

IMO, it sounds like AA may not have ever wanted to come to America at all. Maybe his mother "forced" him to come with the rest of the family? AA said he was quite happy in Pakistan, so maybe AA harbored simmering resentment for being brought here against his will.

I think it's unlikely he was actually only 18 years old. I wish he had surrendered his permanent residency and gone back to Pakistan where he was happier.

Hopefully, Wilson-Fish will be quickly repealed and those programs eliminated in the next few months. It's profoundly inappropriate to put religious organizations in charge of federal programs where safety and security of American citizens is at stake. We have to stop putting the desires of incoming residents ahead of the needs of citizens, IMO. We can help refugees from dangerous places without bringing them here. That's what the religious organizations should be doing-- that's an appropriate role for them. Wilson Fish is a disastrous policy -- and AA is another example of that, IMO.

After 7 years in Pakistan, Artan and his family should not have been eligible at all for "resettlement" in the U.S. under refugee status, since they had already been resettled and processed under UNHCR in Pakistan for 7 years.

Refugee visa and asylum claims are deeply soaked in fraud -- as the very liberal New Yorker even concedes. It's a very illuminating article.

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2011/08/01/the-asylum-seeker

 

[K_Z]

Having direct ties to ISIS and other terrorist organizations is very bad. That's a whole level of bad that is completely different from "lone wolf" attacks in the name of a terrorist ideology.

The definition of a terroristic act, or an act of terrorism, is not dependent on ties to any organization or individual-- instead it is the expressed IDEOLOGY that defines terrorism and terroristic acts.

Artan expressed that his actions were motivated by radical islamic ideology. I don't really understand the deep level of denial and mental gymnastics that some engage in to deny his own rational and well-expressed declarations. It's a level of willful denial I can't understand or grasp at all, and I think it's frightening.

It's not just a matter of disagreeing on some minor points-- this rational, competent man carefully planned out a terrorist attack, and took great pains to publicly post his motivation and radical ideology before he acted. Why do so many want to quickly and reflexively claim that "of course, he didn't really MEAN what he said-- he did it for some OTHER reason."

For the same reason, IMO, that the news media had such confused and chaotic and inaccurate reporting during the event. As soon as it became blindingly obvious that it was NOT a case of a campus shooter, the reporting came to a standstill and you could hear crickets. Because the media WANTED this to be a campus shooter, and media and politicians WANTED to jump on the situation as fast as they could to blame it on gun violence.

A radical islamic terrorist rampage with a butcher knife and a Honda Civic by a disaffected Somali refugee student didn't fit the narrative that the media wants to breathlessly cover. IMO. So media kept the "shooter" story going as long as they could, until it was no longer possible to portray the "shooter" as the bad guy. The "shooter" was the heroic police officer that took out the threat quickly and competently.

 

[Tawny]

When the media and law enforcement are ready to call everyone who claims some radical ideology "terrorists", then this kid will fall into that category as well. Until people like Dear and Roof are called "terrorists", then this kid is no different than them.

JMO

ETA: Btw, I personally never suggested he is NOT a terrorist. I simply questioned whether he has actual ties to the terrorist organization. It makes a difference, IMO.

 

[Tawny]

Having direct ties to ISIS and other terrorist organizations is very bad. That's a whole level of bad that is completely different from "lone wolf" attacks in the name of a terrorist ideology.

RSBM

That is literally my entire point.

 

[Gardenista]

So glad we are no longer going to be letting these people into our country.

 

[Trident]

So glad we are no longer going to be letting these people into our country.

We can only hope.

 

[K_Z]

I do think Dear and Roof are terrorists—just not radical Islamic terrorists. They are isolated and marginalized domestic terrorists (and clearly social misfits). Dear espouses radical right to life ideology (and also happens to be legally mentally incompetent). Roof espouses radical anti-black racist ideology (and definitely IS legally mentally competent). I also think domestic groups such as BLM and NBP are domestic terrorists, and should be designated as such by the FBI.

Neither of those ideologies are well-organized within large militaristic networks of like-minded radicals that are chopping off heads and establishing a caliphate dedicated to eradicating all non-muslims, and achieving world dominance. Neither of these ideologies are persistently recruiting adherents to fight and kill non-adherents, and neither of these ideologies put out monthly publications devoted to training isolated radicals how to commit acts of mass murder.

Artan, and people like him, are enormously different from marginalized domestic "misfit" terrorists and clearly mentally ill rampage killers like Lanza and Holmes—who are not terrorists, IMO. (Nor are they considered terrorists by government intelligence and security agencies.)

Artan and his radical Islamic ideology, and his simmering collection of imagined islamic grievances, is much more widely embraced and celebrated than marginalized misfits like Dear and Roof. Artan and his deadly Islamic ideology is much, much more dangerous.

 

[Tawny]

Yeah and we still have no indication that he's part of a larger network. Until such time, he IS a marginalized "misfit". He just happens to also be a refugee.

But I can see what the last few posts are REALLY saying, and I'm not interested.

 

[katydid23]

I don't see what the difference is between a terrorist who actually meets with ISIS, and one who reads their material and decides to take their advice on how to kill infidels using vehicles and knives. What differences does it make? He still tried to kill innocent people in their name.

 

[katydid23]

Yeah and we still have no indication that he's part of a larger network. Until such time, he IS a marginalized "misfit". He just happens to also be a refugee.

But I can see what the last few posts are REALLY saying, and I'm not interested.

He doesn't just 'happen' to be a refugee. That is a big part of the problem he had with this country. He identified with his home country and rejected and resented the country he was dragged to. that is a big problem.

 

[katydid23]

Yeah and we still have no indication that he's part of a larger network. Until such time, he IS a marginalized "misfit". He just happens to also be a refugee.

But I can see what the last few posts are REALLY saying, and I'm not interested.

Does it matter to you whether Roof was actually meeting with the KKK or if he was just reading their filth online? Does it make any difference at all in his being a violent domestic terrorist?

 

[Tawny]

I don't see what the difference is between a terrorist who actually meets with ISIS, and one who reads their material and decides to take their advice on how to kill infidels using vehicles and knives. What differences does it make? He still tried to kill innocent people in their name.

Does it matter to you whether Roof was actually meeting with the KKK or if he was just reading their filth online? Does it make any difference at all in his being a violent domestic terrorist?

Yes, it matters. It indicates a larger conspiracy involving more than this one person.

Believe me or not, I don't really care. I'm referencing my experience in the US armed forces to form my "opinion" on this. I'm not operating off of fear and emotion, I'm attempting to go off of fact - if he has actual ties to a larger network that needs to be investigated. If he is a "marginalized misfit" (which it appears he may be) then this particular threat is eliminated because he is dead. However, that leads to a whole slew of other issues that likely contributed to this attack...but we can't and I won't go down that rabbit hole here.

 

[*Lash*]

Funny how few of these alleged "radical Islamist" attacks actually happen here in the US vs how many immigrants are here from those countries and THEY never commit violence. Explanation?

Hi Tawny!

Respectfully, have you had any personal experience being with a large group of Muslim immigrants or refugees in the US? On a personal level, intimate, day to day? Have you ever encountered a Muslim lying and been told it is not a lie if I'm speaking to an infidel? Have you ever had a Somali refugee threaten you? Look you straight in the eyes while giving you the throat slashing motion? Followed by laughter while standing with their fellow roommates? 20 plus Somali men enjoying the intimidation while knowing there is nothing you can do? Have you ever had to comfort a Muslim woman who has been beaten by her spouse while knowing divulging this to you she is putting her own life in jeopardy? A woman living in the US not allowed to be seen speaking to you for fear she will be beaten or the guilt that comes the next day when she walks by battered?

The brutality some of them have seen or perhaps engaged in themselves in their home country does not leave when they walk on US soil. Much of the radical islamic attacks happen in their home country because sadly it is acceptable in their home country. Whether it be because of a religious view or a vile dictatorship. Unlike in the US where it is not acceptable. The US has a dozen of agencies looking to thwart attacks where as their home country does not. JMO.

 

[Tawny]

Hi Tawny!

Respectfully, have you had any personal experience being with a large group of Muslim immigrants or refugees in the US? On a personal level, intimate, day to day? Have you ever encountered a Muslim lying and been told it is not a lie if I'm speaking to an infidel? Have you ever had a Somali refugee threaten you? Look you straight in the eyes while giving you the throat slashing motion? Followed by laughter while standing with their fellow roommates? 20 plus Somali men enjoying the intimidation while knowing there is nothing you can do? Have you ever had to comfort a Muslim woman who has been beaten by her spouse while knowing divulging this to you she is putting her own life in jeopardy? A woman living in the US not allowed to be seen speaking to you for fear she will be beaten or the guilt that comes the next day when she walks by battered?

The brutality some of them have seen or perhaps engaged in themselves in their home country does not leave when they walk on US soil. Much of the radical islamic attacks happen in their home country because sadly it is acceptable in their home country. Whether it be because of a religious view or a vile dictatorship. Unlike in the US where it is not acceptable. The US has a dozen of agencies looking to thwart attacks where as their home country does not. JMO.

I served in the US Army overseas so. Yes.

Have you? We probably shouldn't start getting personal here.

 

[*Lash*]

I served in the US Army overseas so. Yes.

Have you? We probably shouldn't start getting personal here.

Thank you for your service. My post is not meant to be a personal attack. I truly was interested in your experience. Particularly on US soil. Above is my experience.

 

[Tawny]

Thank you you for your service. My post is not meant to be a personal attack. I truly was interested in your experience. Particularly on US soil. Above is my experience.

I apologize, I shouldn't have had my defenses up!

 

[human]

Hi Tawny!

Respectfully, have you had any personal experience being with a large group of Muslim immigrants or refugees in the US? On a personal level, intimate, day to day? Have you ever encountered a Muslim lying and been told it is not a lie if I'm speaking to an infidel? Have you ever had a Somali refugee threaten you? Look you straight in the eyes while giving you the throat slashing motion? Followed by laughter while standing with their fellow roommates? 20 plus Somali men enjoying the intimidation while knowing there is nothing you can do? Have you ever had to comfort a Muslim woman who has been beaten by her spouse while knowing divulging this to you she is putting her own life in jeopardy? A woman living in the US not allowed to be seen speaking to you for fear she will be beaten or the guilt that comes the next day when she walks by battered?

The brutality some of them have seen or perhaps engaged in themselves in their home country does not leave when they walk on US soil. Much of the radical islamic attacks happen in their home country because sadly it is acceptable in their home country. Whether it be because of a religious view or a vile dictatorship. Unlike in the US where it is not acceptable. The US has a dozen of agencies looking to thwart attacks where as their home country does not. JMO.

I only know Muslims who are educated,

But, I worked with victims of domestic violence, mainly white. Those born and bred in the US of A.

It would be nice if the US was free of the pussy attitudes , the women as property attitudes, the children as property attitudes, the child abuse and . There would be no threads here on WS.

Being kept in cages or other special things done to people are horrors. Hopefully, the world will cease seeing these atrocities . Probably when people have better lives when growing up