VERDICT WATCH OH - Pike Co - 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered - 4 Wagner Family Members Arrested #85

[justtrish]

I wish the same for all 4 Wagners. The crimes they committed were unforgivable.

I also wish that those who knew and helped cover up the murders be left to their unhappiness for the remainder of their lives. They should feel lucky they escaped prosecution unscathed.

The horror of wiping out an entire bloodline of a family of innocent people should weigh on their minds daily for the rest of their lives. May the be reviled and rejected by their community.

We’ve been here a long time and it’s been a relief to finally see some justice. I’ve learned so much more about these murders in the last several weeks. Horrible details a extensive plotting and planning, destroying childrens minds and lives.

In spite of what we've learned about the murders, I suspect it scratched the surface of their depravity. The public may never know all the horrors associated with these murders and this sick family.

JMO

I agree. I've been doing back to earlier testimony since Jeff Tackett came up with the paying to wear a wire conversations. He actually called a tip in to BCI in April that he thought Billy was responsible. They didn't call him for an interview until September. I wonder if Billy's interview was first and then they went holy crap that man IS suspicious and then they called Tackett or if they finally got to Jeff Tackett's tip and decided to follow it and contact Billy. I recall they had a hard time tracking Billy down so maybe they just finally were able to talk to him and then realize they had a tip that also pointed to him. Either way, I find it interesting that one of Billy's closest friends (it was said they were friends since they were kids so I guess close just means knew him for a while, not likely close like a normal friend we think of lol) immediately thought it's Billy and not oh it must be a cartel hit or drug related.

Tackett also knew that Chris had $40,000 of Billy's money and $20,000 was in the safe. I wonder if the W's took the small safe thinking it was in there and they couldn't get in to the larger safe or remove it easily so they left it. I think there may have been many motives that night. I think they each justified what they were doing for different reasons. I think jealousy was some of it.

It all does still come back to Billy and Angela. Those boys were groomed from the time they were born to commit crimes and not even consider a different life. We've also discussed a lot here about how enmeshed they were. That goes so far beyond just living with your parents or multiple generations living together.

 

[justtrish]

He’s not but he needs to be. He digs up some awesome paperwork, doesn’t he?

Yes and he's been in the court room I think if not every day, nearly every day taking detailed notes of what is side.

 

[CIA Team Member]

With 150 pages of instructions for the 22 charges, IMO, deliberations will take awhile.

 

[pcrum12]

Beyond a reasonable doubt?

Which receipts put Jake and/or Angela at any of the Rhoden residences that night?
The shoes? Did the evidence prove who was wearing the shoes?
The maglite? Did the evidence prove who made it into a suppressor?
The rest of the items? Did the evidence prove who used them?
What specifically about the ballistic evidence proved who fired the weapons?
What evidence puts Jake and/or Angela at the scene that night?

Again, take away the confessions.

What evidence proves Jake and/or Angela guilty beyond a reasonable doubt?

What evidence proves ONLY Jake and/or Angela guilty beyond a reasonable doubt?

And finally, what evidence rules out George & Billy? Beyond a reasonable doubt, of course?

I think your right in reference to what you noted above..... But just the SA angle and the Jake/Hannah break up makes Jake and Angela look guilty. Then add the hacking of FB and recording the child pick ups -- Angela bought the shoes - don't know who wore them but she did buy them. All the text messages between Billy and Angela puts Billy in the conspiracy.

Edited to Add: And remember George doesn't have to prove his innocence. by law, he is to be considered innocent until proven guilty by the state. The state has to proof his guilt. I think people forget that.

 

[rsd1200]

So, the trick there would be -- if GW4 is found guilty, do they hold off sentencing until Jake testifies in BW's trial

Apparently, he satisfied the prosecution b/c they took the DP option off the table for G4, so they'll sentence him. The individuals were tried separately so I don't see holding off sentencing as an option.

 

[ColMustard]

He is not a MSM reporter, he is a source for MSM reporters. He has been in the trial every day except one that I know of.

<modsnip: referencing a non approved source>

With the amount of evidence and lengthy jury instructions, seems like there should be a Jury Facilitator or whichever, someone with legal credentials, to help them wade through some of the legalities. Just tagging someone as Jury Foreman doesn't seem quite enough in this case. 150 pages of instructions?

I didn't hear much about the instructions so I have no idea what 150 pages would consist of, the instructions I've received were few enough to easily remember. Though I don't recall any references to instructions during deliberations.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

He did ask and she changed line of question and did not offer to let him read it

If she even had it herself. She did not follow though on any questions she had from his MT interview.

JMO

 

[Cool Cats]

I certainly IMO seen the ballistics and other evidence presented that proved both Jake and Angela guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Receipts, ballistics, etc. However, I didn't see the evidence for George, only Jake and Angela testimony

Their testimony plus all the circumstantial evidence will likely be enough for the jury to vote guilty on the murder Conspiracy charge at least.

His signature on the false custody papers could get a guilty on the fraud charge.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Canepa asked him twice if he needed to refer to the transcript of the MT interview. Not once did i hear GW4 ask to read them. Infact he said he basically didnt need to see them, he wasnt disputing them, he just didnt remember if thats what he said. Another sidestep. So obvious.

Did you listen to his testimony? AC never asked him if he needed to refer to any transcripts. He asked her for the transcript of his MT interview and she ignored him and changed the subject.

JMO

 

[Recidivist]

Beyond a reasonable doubt?

Which receipts put Jake and/or Angela at any of the Rhoden residences that night?
The shoes? Did the evidence prove who was wearing the shoes?
The maglite? Did the evidence prove who made it into a suppressor?
The rest of the items? Did the evidence prove who used them?
What specifically about the ballistic evidence proved who fired the weapons?
What evidence puts Jake and/or Angela at the scene that night?

Again, take away the confessions.

What evidence proves Jake and/or Angela guilty beyond a reasonable doubt?

What evidence proves ONLY Jake and/or Angela guilty beyond a reasonable doubt?

And finally, what evidence rules out George & Billy? Beyond a reasonable doubt, of course?

What evidence? How bout their confessing to the crimes?

 

[rebelchild]

Did you listen to his testimony? AC never asked him if he needed to refer to any transcripts. He asked her for the transcript of his MT interview and she ignored him and changed the subject.

JMO

With respect .. yes she did ask him if he needed to see the transcript to refresh his recollection of what he told the BCI agents. He declined and said that "I'm not saying I didn't say that, I just don't remember" .. and someone posted the two parts of video a couple pages back that you can watch.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Other things that stood out were:

The morning after story ..either he was lying or the recipient of the murder truck was. Timelines dont match, apparently BW was in 2 places at once! GW4s answer to that 1? His cousin was mistaken.

When they were talking about GW4s multiple sks's, Canepa asked if there were any stored at the FW and he said words to the effect of no IT was not. Lil slip there imo.

On a wire tap GW4 said to JW "you should have destroyed the laptop". This was apparently b4 GW4 new JW was guilty. ALARM BELLS! Why/how would he say that if he had no idea?

He also lied about the time he went to bed.

Just these few points and the fact that he was sparring with Canepa and sidestepping every single question that pertained to the actual murders showed me hes, if nothing else, lying. Why is he lying about something hes not involved in. Why is he lying when his mother and brother are apparently trying to frame him? Complicity was proved to me BARD.

When did he ask for the transcript? Are you talking earlier on in the trial? Canepa asked him twice if he needed to refer to it on cross.

I must have slept though a lot of what you are saying. george said Billy and Chris sr took the murder truck from Peterson rd. He never said Katy was mistaken.

He did not say no IT was not. He said no. Canepa absolutely did not ask george if he needed to refer to the transcript of the MT interview. He asked her if she would give HIM a copy to refresh his memory of what was said and she ignored him. IMO earphones or earbuds help in understanding what is being said better.

JMO

 

[RAISINISBACK]

With respect .. yes she did ask him if he needed to see the transcript to refresh his recollection of what he told the BCI agents. He declined and said that "I'm not saying I didn't say that, I just don't remember" .. and someone posted the two parts of video a couple pages back that you can watch.

With respect.... I have listened to his testimony three times now and never heard her ask him if he wanted to see the transcripts of the MT interview.

JMO

ETA: My anti virus will not let me view those clips posted so i will refer back to the original video at the times posted.

 

[Pru2U]

I think your right in reference to what you noted above..... But just the SA angle and the Jake/Hannah break up makes Jake and Angela look guilty. Then add the hacking of FB and recording the child pick ups -- Angela bought the shoes - don't know who wore them but she did buy them. All the text messages between Billy and Angela puts Billy in the conspiracy.

Edited to Add: And remember George doesn't have to prove his innocence. by law, he is to be considered innocent until proven guilty by the state. The state has to proof his guilt. I think people forget that.

Every US Citizen is presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law by a jury of his/her peers. This is something we all learned in civics class and if not civics class, then it’s been often repeated on television since Dragnet & Perry Mason. Just like Miranda Rights. I cannot imagine anyone posting on Webslueths doesn’t know or has forgotten it.

That being said, it would be quite the challenge for the prosecution to overcome a solid alibi for GW, would it not?

The point of my previous exercise is to demonstrate for anyone disregarding JW’s and AW’s confessions and testimony needs to disregard them completely, not just as they pertain to George. Without their testimony, the collective evidence points the finger at every single resident of that Peterson Rd. house, from the texts & e-mails, to the receipts, from the shell casings to the homemade suppressor found in the cistern to the gun “wish list”, from the footprints to the wiretaps; and witness after witness testimony about how deeply enmeshed the family was and had always been. COLLECTIVELY, all that evidence encompasses at minimum, Angela, George and Jake but does not conclusively point to one individual. WITH their testimony, it indicts all 4 of them.

So I’m glad people discount their testimony because without it, the COLLECTIVE evidence still points to Jake, Angela AND George.

 

[Pru2U]

What evidence? How bout their confessing to the crimes?

Yes they did. My point is, either you believe their testimony or you don’t. If you do NOT believe their testimony, that’s cool. The COLLECTIVE evidence still points to Angela, Jake and George.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

There has been much discussion about how this trial was all about Jake and Angela. All of the charges are the same so here is a question I haven’t seen asked:

Disregard Jake’s confession. Did the evidence prove Jake guilty beyond a reasonable doubt?

Why or why not?

Disregard Angela’s confession.
Did the evidence prove Angela guilty beyond a reasonable doubt?

Why or why not?

Something to think about:
If the answer is no, we can assume all of the work BCI did was in vain, the prosecution did not prove their case and the alleged killers go free.

Jake =yes
Angela =yes

beyond a shadow of a doubt on both.

JMO

 

[RAISINISBACK]

im sure canepa will do the closing but i really hope not. i dont like the defense tactics, but there were good points. i feel canepa put too much effort into proving the "crime family" angle and did not concentrate enough on the actual murder conspiracy. they are 2 different things. now before they had co defendants testifying the continuing criminal enterprise is a way to link all 4 together in order to secure indictments, no bail etc. its saying we know these 4 people did this and we can prove it but we cant prove exactly who did what. once they had jake and angela, the pressure of "continuing enterprise" should have been toned down and the mechanics of the murder should have been turned up.
1. angela destroyed g4 alibi. this is huge and ignored. angela is a lier yes, but she is admitting to be part of the murders AND THAT SHE WAS HOME ALONE NIGHT OF. she is blowing g4s fairy princess pathetic alibi away here, but its never presented to the jury that way
2. she let jake shy away from the details way too much. you can tell he started going over areas where he could be vague to help george like when the bodies magically move while hes getting the hard drive.
3. extra bullets in franky. theres no way billy did this. it was g4 all the way. its been shown he had a personal friendship with franky at one point he might have been the target of g4s anger for some reason. usually soured friendships turn to hate not indifference. something bad and overboard happened in that bedroom and not nearly enough time was spent on it. i dont believe for a second jake shot both of them at once. he was petrified of franky.
4. back off the tabitha stuff. yes its horrible hes horrible. but it only goes to background of motive and has no real bearing on the actual murders

I do not think Angie was at home. Period. Her or jake. So i do not see how she destroyed george's alibi. Only Billy may be able to do that but he has not testified.

Whether you want to think so or not, Angie fired that SKS. No way those shots would have went wild like they did if any of the men had been shooting that gun. One or two maybe, until they adjusted for the silencer but not all 8 or 9. For those shots to go that wild that they even went into a bedroom, someone who was inexperienced at shooting firearms was behind the trigger of that gun. Out of all of them that was only Angie. Think what you will, but if you look where those SKS shots hit the trailer and porch you will see that anyone with experience with firing guns did not fire those shots.

JMO

 

[RAISINISBACK]

im sure canepa will do the closing but i really hope not. i dont like the defense tactics, but there were good points. i feel canepa put too much effort into proving the "crime family" angle and did not concentrate enough on the actual murder conspiracy. they are 2 different things. now before they had co defendants testifying the continuing criminal enterprise is a way to link all 4 together in order to secure indictments, no bail etc. its saying we know these 4 people did this and we can prove it but we cant prove exactly who did what. once they had jake and angela, the pressure of "continuing enterprise" should have been toned down and the mechanics of the murder should have been turned up.
1. angela destroyed g4 alibi. this is huge and ignored. angela is a lier yes, but she is admitting to be part of the murders AND THAT SHE WAS HOME ALONE NIGHT OF. she is blowing g4s fairy princess pathetic alibi away here, but its never presented to the jury that way
2. she let jake shy away from the details way too much. you can tell he started going over areas where he could be vague to help george like when the bodies magically move while hes getting the hard drive.
3. extra bullets in franky. theres no way billy did this. it was g4 all the way. its been shown he had a personal friendship with franky at one point he might have been the target of g4s anger for some reason. usually soured friendships turn to hate not indifference. something bad and overboard happened in that bedroom and not nearly enough time was spent on it. i dont believe for a second jake shot both of them at once. he was petrified of franky.
4. back off the tabitha stuff. yes its horrible hes horrible. but it only goes to background of motive and has no real bearing on the actual murders

are you talking about frankie and hazel?

 

[pcrum12]

I’m

Every US Citizen is presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law by a jury of his/her peers. This is something we all learned in civics class and if not civics class, then it’s been often repeated on television since Dragnet & Perry Mason. Just like Miranda Rights. I cannot imagine anyone posting on Webslueths doesn’t know or has forgotten it.

That being said, it would be quite the challenge for the prosecution to overcome a solid alibi for GW, would it not?

The point of my previous exercise is to demonstrate for anyone disregarding JW’s and AW’s confessions and testimony needs to disregard them completely, not just as they pertain to George. Without their testimony, the collective evidence points the finger at every single resident of that Peterson Rd. house, from the texts & e-mails, to the receipts, from the shell casings to the homemade suppressor found in the cistern to the gun “wish list”, from the footprints to the wiretaps; and witness after witness testimony about how deeply enmeshed the family was and had always been. COLLECTIVELY, all that evidence encompasses at minimum, Angela, George and Jake but does not conclusively point to one individual. WITH their testimony, it indicts all 4 of them.

So I’m glad people discount their testimony because without it, the COLLECTIVE evidence still points to Jake, Angela AND George.

Oh totally get what you are saying. And agree to some extent as to the totality of the evidence presented. I wouldn't go as far as just because I don't believe ALL of Jake/Angela testimony that I can just throw out what the other evidence shows is a preponderance of proof to the admissions/guilty on their part. After all, It was Angela and Jakes' beef, not Billy's or George's. IMO. As to presumption of guilt on George's part, I just mean that people do expect a defendant to prove they are innocent. I mean you hear it all the time - "Well he hasn't provided a better alibi" is an example. As for your list above that you say points to the guilty of all including George, I disagree. Collectively or not. text and emails = Jake, Angela, Billy. Shell casings = 22 Jake - SKS Jake (he admitted he is who fired it). Suppressor - didn't Jake say he bought it? Footprints = Angela bought the shoes - no proof who wore them. Wiretaps = George screaming - they all scream - they always did per testimony. If you mean threats - like the judge said, sounds like a rant - and COULD BE due to aggravation on the accusation by BCI etc. (reasonable doubt?). Enmeshed, yes and no -- many witnesses said George was the outcast and loner - even prosecution witnesses. I'm really not siding with the defense, just calling it like I see it - but again who am I but a potential juror.

 

[Betty P]

Not sure if The Docket on Twitter was an approved source, so I won’t link, just say that IMO one of the AW’s jail incident reports he twitted yesterday is interesting, the one dated 07/06/2019..

Websleuths considers him a reliable source.

Not sure posting old news like that is interesting or relevant. Why is he spreading this stuff around just before the jury gets GW4's case. That seems shady, JMO. Not appropriate for a "journalist".