OH Pike Co., 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue, 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested #54

[Fletcher73]

Then why can't they help organize the discovery documents instead of asking for a
specialist costing $80,000 + ?
There must be dozens of law students out there who would love to sit around in a "study group" and organize discovery evidence into spreadsheets on their laptops and also confer with each other. Sorry, don't mean to over think it.

I'm guessing: perhaps confidentiality issues limit who they may use for evidence organization. Chain-of-custody may be required, which may mean the organizer must be an officer of the court, and/or must be bonded.
JMO/MOO

 

[Cool Cats]

I'm guessing: perhaps confidentiality issues limit who they may use for evidence organization. Chain-of-custody may be required, which may mean the organizer must be an officer of the court, and/or must be bonded.
JMO/MOO

I thought getting a professional organizer only applied to listed evidence and photos of the evidence not the real evidence like silencer, audio and video tapes, receipts, phones, computers, Walmart boots to show type and size matching the tread and matching the boot receipts, movie DVD, burnt VCR, 1911.22 gun, etc...

The real evidence has to be in a strict chain of custody with whatever protocols they use for that.

 

[Fletcher73]

I don't understand those documents either.
I'm thinking if there was DNA, meaning if one of the W4 were injured, it would have been at the big confrontation at CRsr. My thought has always been that it was JW who sustained a small injury that went unnoticed at the time. its just a guess.
I still think there was blood on the door of CRjr vehicle in CRsr driveway. my opinion.

Agree, that if CRsr was beat up, as it appeared to be to BJM (what she said on the 911 call) then the perpetrator(s) must have left DNA on the body, or in relation to the blood trail. Just dragging the body, or both bodies, through to the back bedroom would have left evidence, no matter how minute.

The case could be made that Jake's DNA was in CRsr's home because he may have been there a lot throughout his relationship with HMR & daughter... but no one has ever said GW4 had been friends with, or been in any Rhoden home - same for AW.

Fred did say Billie & CRsr were longtime friends - maybe trying to justify that his DNA would be on scene at CRsr's home - doesn't explain if his DNA was found at the other homes.

Just thinking out loud. MOO/JMO

 

[Cool Cats]

Double post..

 

[Fletcher73]

I thought it only applied to listed evidence and photos of the evidence not the real evidence like silencer, audio and video tapes, receipts, phones, computers, Walmart boots to show type and size matching the tread and matching the boot receipts, movie DVD, burnt VCR, 1911.22 gun, etc...
The real evidence has to be in a strict chain of custody with whatever protocols they use for that.

The way I understood it when an evidence organizer was proposed in one hearing, was for all Discovery - that provided by the Defense attorneys to the Prosecution, as well as that provided by the Prosecution to the Defense.
JMO

What I heard was evidence was being submitted but the terminology or descriptions used possibly confused some issues. The evidence organizer was necessary to ensure the Prosecution and Defense would compare "apples to apples and oranges to oranges."

IMO, this would save court time and would limit chance of 'mistrial' by improper evidence presentation.

Hope that makes sense.
JMO/MOO

 

[Fletcher73]

Not looking orange in this pic, but the pic I was thinking of showed the car in the driveway with the tape looking red or orange.
Up to 18 vehicles towed from Pike County massacre property
edit: The link above is pic #3, if you advance to pic #4 in the slideshow, you'll see the same tape on a pickup truck. It's a crime scene seal, to seal the truck door.
edited edit: Well now the slideshow skips pic 4 and goes straight to pic 5, a wide shot of the same red truck with crime scene seal in the driver's door. I can't explain it, maybe if you access the pics from the article link: Up to 18 vehicles towed from Pike County massacre property
Click - " 5 - view all photos" beside the video. Their site isn't working well for me at the moment.

I was able to save the picture of the red truck with evidence seal on the driver's door (attached) but I don't know whose truck it was.

 

[Loomis124]

Nah - It's way, way too much work MOO, believe me. I had to pull documents for a recent trial and it took me three weeks to collect, pull, tabulate & organize to submit for discovery. Brutal ") ...and those documents were just my own records of the circumstances - none from any other source. IMO that would be harder, to organize someone else's memoralization of a case. I agree with the prosecutors, they need a single organization of the evidence to they're all speaking to the same issues. I know one attorney kept using his own acronyms during my testimony and it kept throwing things off - I had to keep correcting to ensure the judge didn't conflate two issues that the parties tended to confuse.

That's crazy that they can use acronyms in court!

 

[Fletcher73]

Sorry if this has already been asked, my memory fails me at times, but do you think a cell phone jammer was used? I keep thinking about CRjr hiding. Many people sleep with their phones and what if he tried to call 911 and it wouldn't go through? Jmo(although it's more of a thought than opinion) I hope not because I can only imagine how terrified he must have been. Can't wait for the W trials, I hope justice will be served! P.S. love reading all sleuths thoughts and research, thank you all!

IMO the charges list electronic devices that easily may have included a cell phone jammer. It's true - in Dana's home there were three killed and at least two of them were not in their beds.
CRjr may have tried, hoping to call for help before being shot, as his body was not found right away, hidden between the wall and his bed.

 

[Loomis124]

I thought getting a professional organizer only applied to listed evidence and photos of the evidence not the real evidence like silencer, audio and video tapes, receipts, phones, computers, Walmart boots to show type and size matching the tread and matching the boot receipts, movie DVD, burnt VCR, 1911.22 gun, etc...

The real evidence has to be in a strict chain of custody with whatever protocols they use for that.

I thought the issue is a Discovery coordinator, just to make sure the attorneys for all 4 have the same Discovery documents. Evidence was not brought up in the hearings. That would be nuts. IMO

 

[Loomis124]

The way I understood it when an evidence organizer was proposed in one hearing, was for all Discovery - that provided by the Defense attorneys to the Prosecution, as well as that provided by the Prosecution to the Defense.
JMO

What I heard was evidence was being submitted but the terminology or descriptions used possibly confused some issues. The evidence organizer was necessary to ensure the Prosecution and Defense would compare "apples to apples and oranges to oranges."

IMO, this would save court time and would limit chance of 'mistrial' by improper evidence presentation.

Hope that makes sense.
JMO/MOO

CC, I don't remember an evidence organizer being discussed. Can you please help? Thanks!

 

[Fletcher73]

CC, I don't remember an evidence organizer being discussed. Can you please help? Thanks!

It was brought up in two of the hearings, maybe December 2019? I'll have to look through the YouTube hearings.

[Edit] adding link to December 9, 2019 article, re: GWIII hearing.

Attorneys ask for evidence coordinator for Rhoden killing suspect

The pre-trial hearing centered on the issue of discovery, with the defense calling for the appointment of a discovery coordinator. The coordinator would compare the evidence the state has against what the defense has, and vice versa, and make sure each side is properly prepared for the trial.

According to the defense, the coordinator would also compare what discovery evidence the other three defendants in the case have and make sure all sides have the same evidence.

The judge set a Jan. 31, 2020, deadline for the defense to present a motion to the court about the appointment of a discovery coordinator, with a Feb. 11, 2020, pre-trial date set for the judge to rule on the motion.

Attorneys ask for evidence coordinator for Rhoden killing suspect

 

[Loomis124]

It was brought up in two of the hearings, maybe December 2019? I'll have to look through the YouTube hearings.

[Edit] adding link to December 9, 2019 article, re: GWIII hearing.

Attorneys ask for evidence coordinator for Rhoden killing suspect

The pre-trial hearing centered on the issue of discovery, with the defense calling for the appointment of a discovery coordinator. The coordinator would compare the evidence the state has against what the defense has, and vice versa, and make sure each side is properly prepared for the trial.

According to the defense, the coordinator would also compare what discovery evidence the other three defendants in the case have and make sure all sides have the same evidence.

The judge set a Jan. 31, 2020, deadline for the defense to present a motion to the court about the appointment of a discovery coordinator, with a Feb. 11, 2020, pre-trial date set for the judge to rule on the motion.

Attorneys ask for evidence coordinator for Rhoden killing suspect

Thank you, Fletcher. In the journal entries, I only see "Discovery." What am I missing here? How can a Discovery coordinator be allowed to deal directly with evidence? Thanks, just trying to understand.

DBM

 

[Fletcher73]

I know I'm not the first to say it, but KR does stand out as different from the others. Could be wrong though, they could've gone there first or last in the Excursion, one shot and out of there.

Have learned my lesson, the time to grab pics is when you first see them, because you may not find them later.

What else could have been found in the Excursion, if not blood evidence? Didn't LE cut pieces from the interior, or was that only rumor? I know there's the pic of the receipt to the new owners of the Excursion in Ky, but that wasn't really verified if I recall.

IIRC a Discovery page for AW listed a carriage repair specialty shop, and there was speculation that the interior was replaced in the Excursion (leather seats, etc?).

 

[Loomis124]

IIRC a Discovery page for AW listed a carriage repair specialty shop, and there was speculation that the interior was replaced in the Excursion (leather seats, etc?).

I have a hard copy of the receipt that I printed out somewhere along the way but don't have a clue where I got it.

 

[Cool Cats]

I thought the issue is a Discovery coordinator, just to make sure the attorneys for all 4 have the same Discovery documents. Evidence was not brought up in the hearings. That would be nuts. IMO

The subject was if it would be necessary for the organizer to document a strict chain of command for the discovery documents they will be organizing. I say no because discovery documents are not the actual evidence.

The defense won't be able to say the discovery is tainted because it did not go through a chain of command protocol. But they could try to do that with the actual evidence.

 

[Fletcher73]

Thank you, Fletcher. In the journal entries, I only see "Discovery." What am I missing here? How can a Discovery coordinator be allowed to deal directly with evidence? Thanks, just trying to understand.
DBM

I think the words, 'evidence' and 'discovery' may be interchangeable concepts in this request. By that I mean, the "Evidence Coordinator" is the same as a "Discovery Coordinator," who looks through all the pertinent materials, from each side, to ensure that Prosecutors and Defense Attorneys have it all tabulated and referenced, so they can prepare properly and be ready when the trials start.

I don't think it means they are going through the actual items, unless there are questions about chain-of-custody or provenance, which they would try to clarify before it is used.

IMO the Coordinator's function is to make sure all parties are on a level playing field. It should minimize the crap games FW's and RN's attorneys were playing, for instance, documents that weren't properly provided to the prosecution (BPV receipts), or trying to sneak information from the judge (like the "important stuff" box).

IMO it would also help the defense attorneys prepare the defendants for the later phases - given the overwhelming volume of materials.

 

[Johnny B Bad]

The subject was if it would be necessary for the organizer to document a strict chain of command for the discovery documents they will be organizing. I say no because discovery documents are not the actual evidence.

The defense won't be able to say the discovery is tainted because it did not go through a chain of command protocol. But they could try to do that with the actual evidence.

Hey Sleuthers can you tell me why would Judge Deering give a Discovery Coordinator to the Wagners and their attorney if they are being tried separate, I could see it if the Wagners was going to be tried together? IMO

 

[Fletcher73]

Hey Sleuthers can you tell me why would Judge Deering give a Discovery Coordinator to the Wagners and their attorney if they are being tried separate, I could see it if the Wagners was going to be tried together? IMO

IMO there's just one Discovery Coordinator in charge, whose job is to organize all of the materials, and provide the itemized, tabulated and referenced list, to each prosecutor and each defense attorney.

So all the parties are "singing from the same hymnal," so to speak ") MOO.

 

[Loomis124]

I think the words, 'evidence' and 'discovery' may be interchangeable concepts in this request. By that I mean, the "Evidence Coordinator" is the same as a "Discovery Coordinator," who looks through all the pertinent materials, from each side, to ensure that Prosecutors and Defense Attorneys have it all tabulated and referenced, so they can prepare properly and be ready when the trials start.

I don't think it means they are going through the actual items, unless there are questions about chain-of-custody or provenance, which they would try to clarify before it is used.

IMO the Coordinator's function is to make sure all parties are on a level playing field. It should minimize the crap games FW's and RN's attorneys were playing, for instance, documents that weren't properly provided to the prosecution (BPV receipts), or trying to sneak information from the judge (like the "important stuff" box).

IMO it would also help the defense attorneys prepare the defendants for the later phases - given the overwhelming volume of materials.

Excellent analysis! Makes sense, thank you!

 

[ColMustard]

IIRC a Discovery page for AW listed a carriage repair specialty shop, and there was speculation that the interior was replaced in the Excursion (leather seats, etc?).

IMO MOO

I think Ws sliced out blood stains from the interior, then got it repaired. However, they missed some, like maybe in the carpet or door panels, even the headliner.