OH Pike Co., 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue, 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested #56

[Dudly]

This is old though, right?

From when it happened. It has dates on it.

 

[Cool Cats]

Why only left foot prints in two sizes?

Jake's attorneys filed a motion arguing to get expert shoe print evidence thrown out.
These prosecution documents - here - appear to be the motion arguing to keep the expert shoe print testimony from being thrown out.

(trying to sum this up but documents are not 100% clear to me so could be mistakes)

1.) North of Chris Sr's entryway (front porch?) Is left print of
11W athletic works shoe.

2.) On Chris Sr's living room floor another left print was found of the 11W athletic works shoe.

3.) Also North of Chris Sr's porch entryway or on living room floor or both,
a left print was found of a size 10.5 athletic works shoe.

4.) At Dana's a left print of a 11W athletic works shoe was found and only this size print was found at Dana's.

5.) Receipt from Waverly Walmart found on Angela Wagner's property shows the purchase of these 2 sizes of athletic works shoes that match the shoe footprints found at 4077 (Chris Sr's) and 3122 UHR (Dana's).

6.) A still photo of Angie shows her leaving Walmart at time the athletic works shoes were purchased right before murders.

7.) These shoes sizes 11 and 10.5 are sizes that fit Jake.

8.) To determine if athletic works shoes were worn by any of the suspects, shoes from the same mold were purchased in Florida to compare to the 4077 and 3122 UHR crime scenes. The shoe expert is able to conclude that there are 2 distinct sizes that were worn - - Size 11W and size 10.5W.

9.) Outsole design, mold, dimension, texture pattern, and other forensic comparisons were made.

10.) Defendant's reference to the field of forensic footware identification as "pseudo-science" is baseless as will be established herein, courts throughout the State and the Country routinely admit footware impression analysis. Footprint analysis has been admissible in courts in the US for 100 years; it is not new or novel evidenw.

SIDE NOTE:

I am not surprised that bloody footprints were found at Chris Sr's considering there were blood "drag marks" and "blood all over the house."

Also, I wonder if the bloody footprints found at Dana's were specifically from Dana being shot 5 times and left on the living room floor.
One theory discussed is Dana being shot while out of bed and then JM saw her legs laying on the floor when he stepped into the house. Dana's front door opened directly into her living room.

 

[Betty P]

Jake's attorneys filed a motion arguing to get expert shoe print evidence thrown out.
These prosecution documents - here - appear to be the motion arguing to keep the expert shoe print testimony from being thrown out.

(trying to sum this up but documents are not 100% clear to me so could be mistakes)

1.) North of Chris Sr's entryway (front porch?) Is left print of
11W athletic works shoe.

2.) On Chris Sr's living room floor another left print was found of the 11W athletic works shoe.

3.) Also North of Chris Sr's porch entryway or on living room floor or both,
a left print was found of a size 10.5 athletic works shoe.

4.) At Dana's a left print of a 11W athletic works shoe was found and only this size print was found at Dana's.

5.) Receipt from Waverly Walmart found on Angela Wagner's property shows the purchase of these 2 sizes of athletic works shoes that match the shoe footprints found at 4077 (Chris Sr's) and 3122 UHR (Dana's).

6.) A still photo of Angie shows her leaving Walmart at time the athletic works shoes were purchased right before murders.

7.) These shoes sizes 11 and 10.5 are sizes that fit Jake.

8.) To determine if athletic works shoes were worn by any of the suspects, shoes from the same mold were purchased in Florida to compare to the 4077 and 3122 UHR crime scenes. The shoe expert is able to conclude that there are 2 distinct sizes that were worn - - Size 11W and size 10.5W.

9.) Outsole design, mold, dimension, texture pattern, and other forensic comparisons were made.

10.) Defendant's reference to the field of forensic footware identification as "pseudo-science" is baseless as will be established herein, courts throughout the State and the Country routinely admit footware impression analysis. Footprint analysis has been admissible in courts in the US for 100 years; it is not new or novel evidenw.

SIDE NOTE:

I am not surprised that bloody footprints were found at Chris Sr's considering there were blood "drag marks" and "blood all over the house."

Also, I wonder if the bloody footprints found at Dana's were specifically from Dana being shot 5 times and left on the living room floor.
One theory discussed is Dana being shot while out of bed and then JM saw her legs laying on the floor when he stepped into the house. Dana's front door opened directly into her living room.

If Jake's attorneys thought revealing this information to the public before trial would help his case, JMO, they're wrong. It's very incriminating. Saying footprint analysis is "pseudo-science" is like saying the same for fingerprint analysis. Just not true.

 

[Loomis124]

Jake's attorneys filed a motion arguing to get expert shoe print evidence thrown out.
These prosecution documents - here - appear to be the motion arguing to keep the expert shoe print testimony from being thrown out.

(trying to sum this up but documents are not 100% clear to me so could be mistakes)

1.) North of Chris Sr's entryway (front porch?) Is left print of
11W athletic works shoe.

2.) On Chris Sr's living room floor another left print was found of the 11W athletic works shoe.

3.) Also North of Chris Sr's porch entryway or on living room floor or both,
a left print was found of a size 10.5 athletic works shoe.

4.) At Dana's a left print of a 11W athletic works shoe was found and only this size print was found at Dana's.

5.) Receipt from Waverly Walmart found on Angela Wagner's property shows the purchase of these 2 sizes of athletic works shoes that match the shoe footprints found at 4077 (Chris Sr's) and 3122 UHR (Dana's).

6.) A still photo of Angie shows her leaving Walmart at time the athletic works shoes were purchased right before murders.

7.) These shoes sizes 11 and 10.5 are sizes that fit Jake.

8.) To determine if athletic works shoes were worn by any of the suspects, shoes from the same mold were purchased in Florida to compare to the 4077 and 3122 UHR crime scenes. The shoe expert is able to conclude that there are 2 distinct sizes that were worn - - Size 11W and size 10.5W.

9.) Outsole design, mold, dimension, texture pattern, and other forensic comparisons were made.

10.) Defendant's reference to the field of forensic footware identification as "pseudo-science" is baseless as will be established herein, courts throughout the State and the Country routinely admit footware impression analysis. Footprint analysis has been admissible in courts in the US for 100 years; it is not new or novel evidenw.

SIDE NOTE:

I am not surprised that bloody footprints were found at Chris Sr's considering there were blood "drag marks" and "blood all over the house."

Also, I wonder if the bloody footprints found at Dana's were specifically from Dana being shot 5 times and left on the living room floor.
One theory discussed is Dana being shot while out of bed and then JM saw her legs laying on the floor when he stepped into the house. Dana's front door opened directly into her living room.

Great work, CC!

 

[Betty P]

From the other day, after the most recent hearings

Just filed court documents reveal details about evidence in Rhoden case

"Wagner’s attorneys have also asked the judge for a hearing on the shoe print evidence prosecutors intend to introduce at trial. According to the motion opposing the hearing, prosecutors said shoe impressions found in dried blood at the two Union Hill Road crime scenes matched shoe prints from a size 10.5 and 11 Walmart Athletic Works shoe with velcro straps."

I listened to the live broadcast of the hearing and the attorneys referred to them as "pools of blood".

No doubt all of the crime scenes were very bloody and details from the prosecution so far bear this out.

 

[Cool Cats]

If Jake's attorneys thought revealing this information to the public before trial would help his case, JMO, they're wrong. It's very incriminating. Saying footprint analysis is "pseudo-science" is like saying the same for fingerprint analysis. Just not true.

I really think at this point one thing that is going on besides the defense wanting the public to "hear" things like GW4 reads his bible, no evidence ties Billy to the crimes, ballistic and shoe print expert analysis is "pseudo-science" etc...,
Is that the defense is trying to get damming evidence thrown out. Desperately trying.

With overwhelming evidence the defense is doing a common ploy which is to try to get as much of it thrown out as possible.

The bloody shoe prints are damming evidence and so is the evidence of matching shell casings found at both the Wagner's and the crime scenes. The Wagner's apparently carelessly fired the murder weapons on their own property. There are photos of dozens of LE searching the Peebles Rd. property with what appears to be metal detectors and I wouldn't be surprised if the shell casings were picked up that way.

So I'm not surprised Jake's defense is also trying to get the ballistic expert testimony tossed out. I expect more of these types of motions to be filed.

Grasping at straws. These will not be tossed out and none of them will ever get bail.
All in my opinion.

 

[Betty P]

I really think at this point one thing that is going on besides the defense wanting the public to "hear" things like GW4 reads his bible, no evidence ties Billy to the crimes, ballistic and shoe print expert analysis is "pseudo-science" etc...,
Is that the defense is trying to get damming evidence thrown out. Desperately trying.

With overwhelming evidence the defense is doing a common ploy which is to try to get as much of it thrown out as possible.

The bloody shoe prints are damming evidence and so is the evidence of matching shell casings found at both the Wagner's and the crime scenes. The Wagner's apparently carelessly fired the murder weapons on their own property. There are photos of dozens of LE searching the Peebles Rd. property with what appears to be metal detectors and I wouldn't be surprised if the shell casings were picked up that way.

So I'm not surprised Jake's defense is also trying to get the ballistic expert testimony tossed out. I expect more of these types of motions to be filed.

Grasping at straws. These will not be tossed out and none of them will ever get bail.
All in my opinion.

Agree, its an exercise in futility. They have to mount a defense, no matter how futile the effort. But I don't trust them not to try to use this info to trick or confuse the jury.
They've done a lot of that already. Most of these motions are usually brought up after the trial begins, so I'm guessing they have some kind of dirty tricks up their sleeves. Probably hoping to get a mistrial at best.

 

[Johnny B Bad]

T

Jake's attorneys filed a motion arguing to get expert shoe print evidence thrown out.
These prosecution documents - here - appear to be the motion arguing to keep the expert shoe print testimony from being thrown out.

(trying to sum this up but documents are not 100% clear to me so could be mistakes)

1.) North of Chris Sr's entryway (front porch?) Is left print of
11W athletic works shoe.

2.) On Chris Sr's living room floor another left print was found of the 11W athletic works shoe.

3.) Also North of Chris Sr's porch entryway or on living room floor or both,
a left print was found of a size 10.5 athletic works shoe.

4.) At Dana's a left print of a 11W athletic works shoe was found and only this size print was found at Dana's.

5.) Receipt from Waverly Walmart found on Angela Wagner's property shows the purchase of these 2 sizes of athletic works shoes that match the shoe footprints found at 4077 (Chris Sr's) and 3122 UHR (Dana's).

6.) A still photo of Angie shows her leaving Walmart at time the athletic works shoes were purchased right before murders.

7.) These shoes sizes 11 and 10.5 are sizes that fit Jake.

8.) To determine if athletic works shoes were worn by any of the suspects, shoes from the same mold were purchased in Florida to compare to the 4077 and 3122 UHR crime scenes. The shoe expert is able to conclude that there are 2 distinct sizes that were worn - - Size 11W and size 10.5W.

9.) Outsole design, mold, dimension, texture pattern, and other forensic comparisons were made.

10.) Defendant's reference to the field of forensic footware identification as "pseudo-science" is baseless as will be established herein, courts throughout the State and the Country routinely admit footware impression analysis. Footprint analysis has been admissible in courts in the US for 100 years; it is not new or novel evidenw.

SIDE NOTE:

I am not surprised that bloody footprints were found at Chris Sr's considering there were blood "drag marks" and "blood all over the house."

Also, I wonder if the bloody footprints found at Dana's were specifically from Dana being shot 5 times and left on the living room floor.
One theory discussed is Dana being shot while out of bed and then JM saw her legs laying on the floor when he stepped into the house. Dana's front door opened directly into her living room.

ha why GW4 new his DNA was not inside the Rhodens homes he was gathering cameras, trail cams and driving the getaway vehicle, JMO

 

[Cool Cats]

Agree, its an exercise in futility. They have to mount a defense, no matter how futile the effort. But I don't trust them not to try to use this info to trick or confuse the jury.
They've done a lot of that already. Most of these motions are usually brought up after the trial begins, so I'm guessing they have some kind of dirty tricks up their sleeves. Probably hoping to get a mistrial at best.

Your more experienced following trials than I am so I'll take your word for it that:

"Most of these motions are usually brought up after the trial begins."

I am surprised by this. If this is true and the defense is not waiting for trial - but instead littering up the court with premature motions - then I see this as total stall tactics. I was suspicious that some of these defense attorneys were deliberately stalling but I wasn't sure - I know you have said this a few times. Really looks like it. Deering could stop all this stalling I think.

 

[Johnny B Bad]

Maybe after all is over with and trials hopefully comes out to the Rhodens, Gilley & Manleys favor that FW is left financially bankruptcy so her money can’t be used to hurt anymore families, JMO

 

[Cool Cats]

From the other day, after the most recent hearings

Just filed court documents reveal details about evidence in Rhoden case

"Wagner’s attorneys have also asked the judge for a hearing on the shoe print evidence prosecutors intend to introduce at trial. According to the motion opposing the hearing, prosecutors said shoe impressions found in dried blood at the two Union Hill Road crime scenes matched shoe prints from a size 10.5 and 11 Walmart Athletic Works shoe with velcro straps."

I listened to the live broadcast of the hearing and the attorneys referred to them as "pools of blood".

No doubt all of the crime scenes were very bloody and details from the prosecution so far bear this out.

Wow! I was looking for this wanted to read it again... couldn't find it! Thankx!!

NEW TERM

Meeting the

"Daubert Standard"

In United States federal law, the Daubert standard is a rule of evidence regarding the admissibility of expert witness testimony.

According to prosecution this standard has been met...I didn't remember this....Interesting.

 

[Cool Cats]

T

ha why GW4 new his DNA was not inside the Rhodens homes he was gathering cameras, trail cams and driving the getaway vehicle, JMO

Yes it is possible that GW4, with the most to lose and with the weakest reason to be involved, decided to avoid the inside areas of the crime scenes to make sure there was no chance of his DNA being found. He may have even said that he would participate, in order to stand with his family, but wanted to remain outside with no chance of him being connected to the victims.

I find this very plausible because emphasis was brought up early regarding his DNA. From what was said, the prosecution is not using his DNA against him at trial. He may have told (nagged) his attorneys that his DNA can't be there because he was never over visiting the victims (but that's not what he really meant.) DNA is however, listed in evidence for all 4 Wagners.

The Wagner's talked as though they did not expect all 4 to be arrested. I find this peculiar. Again, they may have taken greater measures to distance GW4 from the crimes. Just theory.

Remember, he was the only one of the 4 asking for bail at his arraignment.
I think he was surprised he got arrested....2 Cents......

If GW4 was home babysitting instead of going out that night he and the others must be really shocked that it did not protect him in any way. I always thought Angie stayed home to babysit, now I am wondering if it was GW4? I believe for sure Jake and Billy went, no doubt in my mind there.

 

[Betty P]

Under the Daubert standard, the factors that may be considered in determining whether the methodology is valid are: (1) whether the theory or technique in question can be and has been tested; (2) whether it has been subjected to peer review and publication; (3) its known or potential error rate; (4)the existence and maintenance of standards controlling its operation; and (5) whether it has attracted widespread acceptance within a relevant scientific community.

The Daubert standard is the test currently used in the federal courts and some state courts. In the federal court system, it replaced the Frye standard, which is still used in some states.

Daubert Standard

During Jake's last hearing when this was brought up by defense, AC cited all the reasons whereby the Daubert standard applies, including that shoe print analysis has been used in many previous cases, etc. It probably needs to meet the Daubert standard, as that is used in federal courts, just in case any of these DP cases are appealed to the SCOTUS.

IIRC, Jake's attorneys also argued the ballistics evidence was "pseudo-science".

 

[Betty P]

Your more experienced following trials than I am so I'll take your word for it that:

"Most of these motions are usually brought up after the trial begins."

I am surprised by this. If this is true and the defense is not waiting for trial - but instead littering up the court with premature motions - then I see this as total stall tactics. I was suspicious that some of these defense attorneys were deliberately stalling but I wasn't sure - I know you have said this a few times. Really looks like it. Deering could stop all this stalling I think.

There are probably a lot of people in the news media, legal field, etc. who think its time for Judge Deering to make them move forward with the trials. IIRC, after RN agreed to the plea agreement last December, there were some news articles quoting as much.

Numerous times, when defense has made motions, etc. in pre-trial, AC has said these matters are supposed to be decided during the trial phase. Deering is granting them an evidentiary hearing, I think. JMO, he's trying to keep it moving, without giving them grounds to declare a mistrial, etc.

Pike County Massacre, 4 years later: Coronavirus could delay trials further

The trials are set to begin this fall, said attorney Robert F. Krapenc. He represents Angela Wagner, one of the four Wagner family members charged in the Rhoden family homicides, which all occurred around the same time with 32 bullets fired into the eight victims.

“I think we had all hoped, and we still hope, to try these cases sometime in the fall. Because they have been – they’re getting long in the tooth. They’re getting old," Krapenc said.

That's also why it was a big aggravating that AG Yost's office decided to back out of leading the prosecutions of the trial. It was one more thing that slowed the process down.

 

[Betty P]

Yes it is possible that GW4, with the most to lose and with the weakest reason to be involved, decided to avoid the inside areas of the crime scenes to make sure there was no chance of his DNA being found. He may have even said that he would participate, in order to stand with his family, but wanted to remain outside with no chance of him being connected to the victims.

I find this very plausible because emphasis was brought up early regarding his DNA. From what was said, the prosecution is not using his DNA against him at trial. He may have told (nagged) his attorneys that his DNA can't be there because he was never over visiting the victims (but that's not what he really meant.) DNA is however, listed in evidence for all 4 Wagners.

The Wagner's talked as though they did not expect all 4 to be arrested. I find this peculiar. Again, they may have taken greater measures to distance GW4 from the crimes. Just theory.

Remember, he was the only one of the 4 asking for bail at his arraignment.
I think he was surprised he got arrested....2 Cents......

If GW4 was home babysitting instead of going out that night he and the others must be really shocked that it did not protect him in any way. I always thought Angie stayed home to babysit, now I am wondering if it was GW4? I believe for sure Jake and Billy went, no doubt in my mind there.

I think all 3 of the men were likely at the crime scenes. They needed backup as they were going into homes to kill multiple victims, some of whom they probably suspected of being armed and capable of shooting back.

The Wags are cowards, they may have wanted safety in numbers so the victims couldn't retaliate. JMO.

It's possible GW4 didn't need to participate in any of the shootings, or he may have stayed outside during some of the murders. That may have made him feel he wasn't culpable or wouldn't be caught. Didn't work, though.

 

[Puzzles8]

Maybe after all is over with and trials hopefully comes out to the Rhodens, Gilley & Manleys favor that FW is left financially bankruptcy so her money can’t be used to hurt anymore families, JMO

Just IMO, but I will bet Ohio and/or the Feds and/or the IRS just may have some charges waiting for FW after the W4's trials are over.

Remember in one of the pre-arrest searches LE confiscated her business records (either from Crystal Springs Home or her church)?

The Prosecution backed off FW's original charges, but reserved the right to charge her later. JMO, There was information FW's attorney planned to bring up in her trial that the Prosecution didn't want to be disclosed before the W4's trials.

Even if the W4's are found innocent in the criminal trial, there could still be Civil Trials (think OJ Simpson)....

I'm confident FW has tried to legally protect her assets after the arrests, but who knows what might be possible?

Remember, it was the IRS that finally put Al Capone behind bars.......

JMO, MOO, etc.

 

[Cool Cats]

Just IMO, but I will bet Ohio and/or the Feds and/or the IRS just may have some charges waiting for FW after the W4's trials are over.

Remember in one of the pre-arrest searches LE confiscated her business records (either from Crystal Springs Home or her church)?

The Prosecution backed off FW's original charges, but reserved the right to charge her later. JMO, There was information FW's attorney planned to bring up in her trial that the Prosecution didn't want to be disclosed before the W4's trials.

Even if the W4's are found innocent in the criminal trial, there could still be Civil Trials (think OJ Simpson)....

I'm confident FW has tried to legally protect her assets after the arrests, but who knows what might be possible?

Remember, it was the IRS that put Al Capone behind bars.......

JMO, MOO, etc.

Good point, a conviction is not needed to sue for damages in a criminal case.

You just made me think of something. It can't be lost on Fred that the 4 Wagners could be sued for civil damages. I always assumed she secured her assets against
the possibility of attorneys trying to sue her because she has money, and she has property that attorneys can put liens against. But I just remembered that you can't switch around your assets and in any way try to hide them if you are arrested and litigation could potentially be brought against you. Like she could not switch her assets into Robin's name.

I think Fred is safe as long as she does not get arrested or charged again, as you mention. However, if she does get wrapped up in court again with evidence against her and the evidence is strong, even without a conviction, she could be in jeopardy of being sued.

I mean evidence against her that supports the crimes of the Wagner 4 such as her being involved in the criminal conspiracy - which is in the indictments actually. And evidence of her lying to the GJ in furtherance of the criminal conspiracy and in furtherance of aiding the Wagner 4 of their crimes against the Gilleys, Manleys and Rhodens.

Because she has wealth she could end up a target of litigation and trying to hide assets after the fact is too late....I can picture a very sympathetic jury towards the victims and the jury wanting them compensated by some means financially. A good attorney and a sympathetic jury and that can be all it will take.....2 Cents.....

 

[Dudly]

Jake's attorneys filed a motion arguing to get expert shoe print evidence thrown out.
These prosecution documents - here - appear to be the motion arguing to keep the expert shoe print testimony from being thrown out.

(trying to sum this up but documents are not 100% clear to me so could be mistakes)

1.) North of Chris Sr's entryway (front porch?) Is left print of
11W athletic works shoe.

2.) On Chris Sr's living room floor another left print was found of the 11W athletic works shoe.

3.) Also North of Chris Sr's porch entryway or on living room floor or both,
a left print was found of a size 10.5 athletic works shoe.

4.) At Dana's a left print of a 11W athletic works shoe was found and only this size print was found at Dana's.

5.) Receipt from Waverly Walmart found on Angela Wagner's property shows the purchase of these 2 sizes of athletic works shoes that match the shoe footprints found at 4077 (Chris Sr's) and 3122 UHR (Dana's).

6.) A still photo of Angie shows her leaving Walmart at time the athletic works shoes were purchased right before murders.

7.) These shoes sizes 11 and 10.5 are sizes that fit Jake.

8.) To determine if athletic works shoes were worn by any of the suspects, shoes from the same mold were purchased in Florida to compare to the 4077 and 3122 UHR crime scenes. The shoe expert is able to conclude that there are 2 distinct sizes that were worn - - Size 11W and size 10.5W.

9.) Outsole design, mold, dimension, texture pattern, and other forensic comparisons were made.

10.) Defendant's reference to the field of forensic footware identification as "pseudo-science" is baseless as will be established herein, courts throughout the State and the Country routinely admit footware impression analysis. Footprint analysis has been admissible in courts in the US for 100 years; it is not new or novel evidenw.

SIDE NOTE:

I am not surprised that bloody footprints were found at Chris Sr's considering there were blood "drag marks" and "blood all over the house."

Also, I wonder if the bloody footprints found at Dana's were specifically from Dana being shot 5 times and left on the living room floor.
One theory discussed is Dana being shot while out of bed and then JM saw her legs laying on the floor when he stepped into the house. Dana's front door opened directly into her living room.

I don’t think it has ever been said if and or where DR’s legs were seen by JM. His wife made a comment about him hearing the baby crying and he backed out of the house saying he didn’t want to see her that way, or something to that effect. My opinion only.

 

[Puzzles8]

Good point, a conviction is not needed to sue for damages in a criminal case.

You just made me think of something. It can't be lost on Fred that the 4 Wagners could be sued for civil damages. I always assumed she secured her assets against
the possibility of attorneys trying to sue her because she has money, and she has property that attorneys can put liens against. But I just remembered that you can't switch around your assets and in any way try to hide them if you are arrested and litigation could potentially be brought against you. Like she could not switch her assets into Robin's name.

I think Fred is safe as long as she does not get arrested or charged again, as you mention. However, if she does get wrapped up in court again with evidence against her and the evidence is strong, even without a conviction, she could be in jeopardy of being sued.

I mean evidence against her that supports the crimes of the Wagner 4 such as her being involved in the criminal conspiracy - which is in the indictments actually. And evidence of her lying to the GJ in furtherance of the criminal conspiracy and in furtherance of aiding the Wagner 4 of their crimes against the Gilleys, Manleys and Rhodens.

Because she has wealth she could end up a target of litigation and trying to hide assets after the fact is too late....I can picture a very sympathetic jury towards the victims and the jury wanting them compensated by some means financially. A good attorney and a sympathetic jury and that can be all it will take.....2 Cents.....

IMO, FW's weak spot might be providing some financing to the criminal activity.

Prosecution sure included a lot of Amazon purchases of FWs, both before and after the crime. Also "someone" purchased a lot of protective equipment over the internet, right after the crime. I can't think of anyone else "she" would purchase a 4XL suede jacket for?

Just speculating and wondering out loud

JMO, MOO, etc.

ETA - The W4 started surveillance of someone in 2014. Interestingly enough, FW's Amazon purchases in her discovery start at the very same time.....

 

[Cool Cats]

I don’t think it has ever been said if and or where DR’s legs were seen by JM. His wife made a comment about him hearing the baby crying and he backed out of the house saying he didn’t want to see her that way, or something to that effect. My opinion only.

Some posters have said that April was quoted in a very early article that James "heard crying, saw Dana's legs, then left abruptly not wanting to see his
niece (Hanna) like that."

This is what led to the theory that Dana was near the door and that James saw her legs.

The new version of the article which many posters said they saw and was probably linked at some point, is the one that says "James heard crying and left abruptly not wanting to see his niece like that."

Forget the leg rumor, the point is, what did James see that made him believe that Hanna had been shot? The baby crying is not enough reason for him to be certain that anyone was shot. The baby crying could simply mean they hadn't woken up yet. He saw something that made him know what had happened - what did he see?

THEORY:

Somewhere between Dana's bed and the front door the Wagner's ran into her, they grabbed her, shot her under the chin, she fell on her left side and was then shot 4 times on the right side of her head/face. Dana was the only one shot under the chin and that is more likely to happen if you are standing up. Had Dana been in bed I believe she would have sustained shots only to her head/face like all the others.

Then when James was walking through the house towards the crying baby he saw Dana lying on the floor
obviously shot and bleeding and then that's when he knew that Hanna would also be "like that" and he "didn't want to see his niece like that."

...2 Cents...