GUILTY OH - Pike Co, 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue, 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested #68

[Caylee Advocate]

So is the state saying George 4th IS or ISN'T a shooter or killer? Conflicting statements.



Snipped from March 7/2022 hearing article:

"However, special prosecutor Angie Canepa said the prosecution is not conceding that George wasn't a shooter."

Pike County murder lawyers spar over accessing grand jury testimony, witnesses, evidence
------------------------------------------------------Snipped from February 2, 2022 hearing article:

"In court, Prosecutor Angie Canepa said the state is willing to agree George Wagner IV was not the shooter of any of the eight killed in 2016, pursuant to Jake Wagner’s plea offer."

https://www.fox19.com/2022/02/02/pike-county-massacre-eldest-wagner-son-appear-court/

 

[Cool Cats]

CC
That photo used to be on one of Hanna Mays Rhoden and the Giley boyfriend Facebook, Jake Wagner sent the photo as intimation to the new couple trying to scare HMR back, I saw the photo I really thought you might have saw it, the reporter Chris Graves had the photo of Jake hand holding the gun in one of her stories she did on the Wagners in Alaska, and that gun is the gun that he used to kill the Rhoden.IMO

Chris Graves had it in her article? Wow.

During the Bond Hearing Scheiderer is holding the phone photo with the back of the photo to the camera but if you stop on just the right frame you can see Jake's hand holding his Colt 22.

Yes, this is most likely the same gun he used that night. We might get to see it at his trial this summer. <modsnip: no source link>

 

[Covert Operative]

So is the state saying George 4th IS or ISN'T a shooter or killer? Conflicting statements.



Snipped from March 7/2022 hearing article:

"However, special prosecutor Angie Canepa said the prosecution is not conceding that George wasn't a shooter."

Pike County murder lawyers spar over accessing grand jury testimony, witnesses, evidence
------------------------------------------------------Snipped from February 2, 2022 hearing article:

"In court, Prosecutor Angie Canepa said the state is willing to agree George Wagner IV was not the shooter of any of the eight killed in 2016, pursuant to Jake Wagner’s plea offer."

Pike County Massacre: New trial date set for eldest Wagner son

My opinion.
I think Canepa was willing to agree that JW said in his proffer that G4 did not shoot anyone.

What I recall from the hearings is- We do not stipulate that G4 did not kill anyone because we do not know that.
(not exact words)

In the most recent one she said we do not know who shot who. (not exact words) I think she means evidence wise they cannot prove who shot who but does not say that directly.

I do not believe they will ever agree and say that G4 did not shoot anyone. They almost can't, whether they believe it or not.

That is my take on it.

 

[Cool Cats]

Thanks for sharing the video, CC. I missed the hearing! I might have done that subconsciously, I can't stand watching Boy George's lawyers. The gaslighting activates the ptsd.
What has stuck with me is the fact that there are 350 witnesses for the prosecution. That's a whole lot of witnesses! Any idea who all they are, besides the experts that were called in? Inmates? Locals?

Canepa said 35 witnesses involve custodial records and that a whole lot of LE agencies were involved including from out of State so there will be a slew of LE on the stand.

There will be the people who are considered witnesses for discovering the crime scenes, the AG specifically said JM is considered a witness.

I think there will be the ex-wives of G & J to testify to the Other Acts which George's defense is trying to get thrown out:

May 2, 2022 at 1 o'clock p.m. - Motion hearing on the Other Acts Evidence according to Judge Deering.

MOTION NO. 82 DEFEDANDANT'S OBJECTION AND MOTION IN LIMINE TO PROHIBIT THE INTRODUCTION OF OTHER ACTS EVIDENCE AT TRIAL FILED

There will likely be relatives testifying to the relationship between Jake and Hanna as well as information about the custody dispute.

There are long lists in Discovery of people's phones and likely some of those people will be called to testify.

The experts of course.

The number of witnesses is mind boggling to me. Alot of us won't get much done during the trial trying to keep up with it all. The thread might explode!

LOL

 

[Caylee Advocate]

My opinion.
I think Canepa was willing to agree that JW said in his proffer that G4 did not shoot anyone.

What I recall from the hearings is- We do not stipulate that G4 did not kill anyone because we do not know that.
(not exact words)

In the most recent one she said we do not know who shot who. (not exact words) I think she means evidence wise they cannot prove who shot who but does not say that directly.

I do not believe they will ever agree and say that G4 did not shoot anyone. They almost can't, whether they believe it or not.

That is my take on it.

Thanks, I haven't been able to keep up with the ins and outs of this case for a couple of months. I do hear and see some of the pertinent aspects though, and will hopefully get to attend some of the trial (IF it gets that far) which as most know, I still believe it will end with a plea deal. All just my opinion, and entitled to it. Off to bed, so g'nite e1.

 

[Piffcat]

just because jake is a mass murderer doesnt make him a reliable witness for g4s actions. he has a strong motive to lie about g4 culpability. it should be expected. these ppl actively lied for years in order to escape punishment. only thing jake should be believed are statements which incriminate him

 

[Betty P]

Can someone please provide the link stating that JW testified in a GJ hearing? TIA.

I can't wait to see GW4 and Billy's attorneys explain to jurors the bizarre events that occurred. How both killers helped plan the muders, bought parts to build silencers, brass catchers. How George bought a Captain America mask. How thzt night, theygot all dressed up, put on their special shoes, masks and body armour, loaded their weapons, put on the silencers and got in their vehicles to drive to Union Hill Rd.

Upon arriving they broke into the victims homes hunted down their prey, then stood by while Jake did all the shooting. They must have even handed Jake their own weapons to use when he got bored with using his own gun. Then they left, got back in their vehicle and drove to the next Rhoden home where they repeated the same ritual again and again and again.

Because spree killers always bring along assistants to cheer them on and keep them company. Otherwise it would get boring, right? And why use only one gun to shoot all the victims when you can mix it up by having your assistant loan theirs?

Really? I can't wait to see that courtroom performance.

 

[Johnny B Bad]

Can someone please provide the link stating that JW testified in a GJ hearing? TIA.

I can't wait to see GW4 and Billy's attorneys explain to jurors the bizarre events that occurred. How both killers helped plan the muders, bought parts to build silencers, brass catchers. How George bought a Captain America mask. How thzt night, theygot all dressed up, put on their special shoes, masks and body armour, loaded their weapons, put on the silencers and got in their vehicles to drive to Union Hill Rd.

Upon arriving they broke into the victims homes hunted down their prey, then stood by while Jake did all the shooting. They must have even handed Jake their own weapons to use when he got bored with using his own gun. Then they left, got back in their vehicle and drove to the next Rhoden home where they repeated the same ritual again and again and again.

Because spree killers always bring along assistants to cheer them on and keep them company. Otherwise it would get boring, right? And why use only one gun to shoot all the victims when you can mix it up by having your assistant loan theirs?

Really? I can't wait to see that courtroom performance.

The prosecution’s talk about the mask George Wagner iv bought and had it the night of the murders, what about Jake and Billy did they have any kind of mask and if not why did GW4 wear one also I can’t see why the defense attorneys are trying to use the term GW4 shot nobody but intern one of the Wagner had to be the lookout and in charge of placing the cellphone jammer in front of each murder scene also someone had to gather all the surveillance cameras and help hold any victim that where awake hostage, so I say that Fat piece of Trash needs the Death Penalty, GW4 is just as guilty as the rest of the family, the tail that he went along to make sure Billy didn’t kill Jake is a LIE, ask GW4 why he didn’t stop the murders of the Rhoden family, all he had to do was to report it to the cops/or fire department that something was happening at the Rhoden house that night right before they left to go kill a family and JW/BW would have called it off if they showed up to flashing light that night, and why didn’t GW4 do that because he as sick as the rest of them are and he knew when he left with the other 2 Wagner that they where going on a family hunting trip! JMO

 

[IType]

One reason they may be asking for the GJ testimony is because JW testified at GJ. I am not sure on the other 3. I would doubt seriously (as in no chance) that JW ever said in GJ that G4 or any of them shot anyone. It came out long ago that they took the palm print off of JW grand jury chair to match to the hand/palm picture on his phone of the hand holding the gun. That picture was shown in bond hearing also.

I do not think AC will ever concede officially that G4 did not shoot anyone. Would not be good for the case against G4. In my opinion she does basically admit that she cannot prove he did shoot anyone by statements she has made in two hearings. Now, she also has her witness that is going to say G4 did not shoot anyone and other things which does not help.

The defense is not asking for a ballistics Daubert hearing and they have withdrawn their motion 61. I think they are confident there are no ballistics on G4 that proves he shot anyone.
01/22/2021 (MOTION NO 61) MOTION IN LIMINE TO EXCLUDE PHOTOS OF WEAPONS, SHELL CASINGS, AND RELATED ITEMS FILED Attorney: PARKER, JOHN PATRICK; Attorney: NASH, JR, RICHARD M

I believe she can prove complicity. I do not believe the defense thinks they can get him off in this case. I believe they think they may have a shot at getting him lesser charges and a lesser sentence than he would have gotten. The defense has basically agreed that G4 was complicit. Now they have to try to muddy the waters that he had no intent, this will not be easy to do. This is where they hope JW and his statements will come in for them. There has to be intent to be found guilty of complicity. His lawyer already mentioned in court once that there was no intent so I assume that is where they will try to go with this. That may change.
-In the case of a person charged with complicity, the law requires that in order to be found guilty one must have the intent to commit the crime itself, not simply to assist another person.

I have grand jury dates of 5/26/17 and 7/18/18 (this is when FW and RN testified) from a timeline that is posted somewhere in the media/timeline thread. Do you know at which GJ hearing JW testified and his hand print was taken? (The grand jury also met on 11/12/18--day before arrests--and handed down the indictments.)

The 5/26/17 GJ date was just four days after JM's charges were dropped. From my notes:

5/16/17 JM arrested
5/17/17 JW interview
5/21/17 Interviews of JW, GW4, BW and AW
5/22/17 Charges against JM dropped
5/26/17 grand jury convened
6/20/17 (approximately) DeWine says W4 are under "laser focus" in Rhoden/Gilley murders

JMO

 

[Cool Cats]

Can someone please provide the link stating that JW testified in a GJ hearing? TIA.

I can't wait to see GW4 and Billy's attorneys explain to jurors the bizarre events that occurred. How both killers helped plan the muders, bought parts to build silencers, brass catchers. How George bought a Captain America mask. How thzt night, theygot all dressed up, put on their special shoes, masks and body armour, loaded their weapons, put on the silencers and got in their vehicles to drive to Union Hill Rd.

Upon arriving they broke into the victims homes hunted down their prey, then stood by while Jake did all the shooting. They must have even handed Jake their own weapons to use when he got bored with using his own gun. Then they left, got back in their vehicle and drove to the next Rhoden home where they repeated the same ritual again and again and again.

Because spree killers always bring along assistants to cheer them on and keep them company. Otherwise it would get boring, right? And why use only one gun to shoot all the victims when you can mix it up by having your assistant loan theirs?

Really? I can't wait to see that courtroom performance.

Quote:
Can someone please provide the link stating that JW testified in a GJ hearing?

This shows Jake was at a Grand Jury proceeding:

"There’s a picture of a hand holding a - which is actually a Walther .22 pistol and from that photograph that was found on a backup from Jake Wagner’s iPhone," Scheiderer said. “Our lab was able to identify ridges within the palm print and say that matches Jake Wagner’s known palm prints that we took during a grand jury proceeding.”

Rhoden family frustrated after hearing for Jake Wagner delayed

 

[Betty P]

I remember that May 26, 2017 Grand Jury convening but the implication was that it was for JM.

If JW was tbere, he wasn't testifying against any of his family accomplices back then. Not sure why GW4s attorneys think that testimony will help George. It would have just been Jake lying about not being involved in the murders. Just more smoke and mirrors from Nash. JMO

 

[Betty P]

When Scheiderer talked about the murder kit items he said masks were bought, not just one mask. I believe they all wore masks and gloves. They were careful at the murder scenes to a point. They weren't concerned about shell casings and footprints.

On a recording they happened to catch George talking about buying a Captain America mask and a night scope for an AR 15, having used Jake's rewards card.

Nash tried to make out like only Jake made purchases with his rewards card but Scheiderer said they all used Jake's rewards card.

"There's been a lot of testimony regarding whose account was used or whose rewards was used, nothing pointing in the direction of George Wagner."

Remember defense attorneys are allowed to lie at this stage of the process. Next he'll be announcing George hadn't even been born until after the murders.

 

[Covert Operative]

I have grand jury dates of 5/26/17 and 7/18/18 (this is when FW and RN testified) from a timeline that is posted somewhere in the media/timeline thread. Do you know at which GJ hearing JW testified and his hand print was taken? (The grand jury also met on 11/12/18--day before arrests--and handed down the indictments.)

The 5/26/17 GJ date was just four days after JM's charges were dropped. From my notes:

5/16/17 JM arrested
5/17/17 JW interview
5/21/17 Interviews of JW, GW4, BW and AW
5/22/17 Charges against JM dropped
5/26/17 grand jury convened
6/20/17 (approximately) DeWine says W4 are under "laser focus" in Rhoden/Gilley murders

JMO

No, I do not know the date and am not sure it has been said. For some reason July 2018 date sticks out in my mind but I cannot say for sure. BCI agent did not say in court a date they took his print from the GJ proceeding and from what I recall it did not say a date in the court document.
Opinion: It was in the court document a good while before that ever came out in court.
Seems JW would have been in Alaska end of May 2017, does not mean he could not have been ordered to come back for a GJ but would seem doubtful it was at that time.

 

[Betty P]

No, I do not know the date and am not sure it has been said. For some reason July date sticks out in my mind but I cannot say for sure. BCI agent did not say in court a date they took his print from the GJ proceeding and from what I recall it did not say a date in the court document.
Opinion: It was in the court document a good while before that ever came out in court.
Seems JW would have been in Alaska end of May 2017, does not mean he could not have been ordered to come back for a GJ but would seem doubtful it was at that time.

So Jakes print is on his own gun? There's nothing surprising about that. Why is this factoid such a big deal? JMO its just Nash trying to get the prosecution to reveal more information before the trial so he can distort the meaning and relevance in the news media before the trial.

 

[LMDlong]

Thanks. I corrected my notes.

This is really interesting because now we know Jake was at the Grand Jury Hearing. I didn't know that.

Posting the links to things stated as fact saves alot of confusion.

I didn’t know JW was at a GJ hearing . Very interesting.

 

[LMDlong]

There are many things that are not known. So much information. It's unfortunate because I used to try to share my information with links and facts. It is also my opinion that you would not find G4's jail incident reports available at this time, interesting in the way you think they may be. Maybe some future ones could be.

I learn so much from your posts.

 

[Betty P]

I didn’t know JW was at a GJ hearing . Very interesting.

He was at a hearing before they went to AK, after LE arrested James Manley for destroying the tracker BCI put on his truck. JMO, Jake was probably there to talk about some story he concocted to blame James Manley, resulting in LE putting the tracker on the truck. Jake played them for fools, but they eventually figured it out.

Had LE suspected Jake at that time, he wouldnt have been allowed to leave for AK with the daughter of the woman he mudered. JMO

 

[Cool Cats]

There are many things that are not known. So much information. It's unfortunate because I used to try to share my information with links and facts. It is also my opinion that you would not find G4's jail incident reports available at this time, interesting in the way you think they may be. Maybe some future ones could be.

I never said anything on the thread about incident reports for George. I do not know anything about that. Of course jail reports are private under the jurisdiction of the Sheriff.

<modsnip: no source link>

 

[almond]

Canepa said 35 witnesses involve custodial records and that a whole lot of LE agencies were involved including from out of State so there will be a slew of LE on the stand.

There will be the people who are considered witnesses for discovering the crime scenes, the AG specifically said JM is considered a witness.

I think there will be the ex-wives of G & J to testify to the Other Acts which George's defense is trying to get thrown out:

May 2, 2022 at 1 o'clock p.m. - Motion hearing on the Other Acts Evidence according to Judge Deering.

MOTION NO. 82 DEFEDANDANT'S OBJECTION AND MOTION IN LIMINE TO PROHIBIT THE INTRODUCTION OF OTHER ACTS EVIDENCE AT TRIAL FILED

There will likely be relatives testifying to the relationship between Jake and Hanna as well as information about the custody dispute.

There are long lists in Discovery of people's phones and likely some of those people will be called to testify.

The experts of course.

The number of witnesses is mind boggling to me. Alot of us won't get much done during the trial trying to keep up with it all. The thread might explode!

LOL

Thanks CC!

 

[Berrybell]

One reason they may be asking for the GJ testimony is because JW testified at GJ. I am not sure on the other 3. I would doubt seriously (as in no chance) that JW ever said in GJ that G4 or any of them shot anyone. It came out long ago that they took the palm print off of JW grand jury chair to match to the hand/palm picture on his phone of the hand holding the gun. That picture was shown in bond hearing also.

I do not think AC will ever concede officially that G4 did not shoot anyone. Would not be good for the case against G4. In my opinion she does basically admit that she cannot prove he did shoot anyone by statements she has made in two hearings. Now, she also has her witness that is going to say G4 did not shoot anyone and other things which does not help.

The defense is not asking for a ballistics Daubert hearing and they have withdrawn their motion 61. I think they are confident there are no ballistics on G4 that proves he shot anyone.
01/22/2021 (MOTION NO 61) MOTION IN LIMINE TO EXCLUDE PHOTOS OF WEAPONS, SHELL CASINGS, AND RELATED ITEMS FILED Attorney: PARKER, JOHN PATRICK; Attorney: NASH, JR, RICHARD M

I believe she can prove complicity. I do not believe the defense thinks they can get him off in this case. I believe they think they may have a shot at getting him lesser charges and a lesser sentence than he would have gotten. The defense has basically agreed that G4 was complicit. Now they have to try to muddy the waters that he had no intent, this will not be easy to do. This is where they hope JW and his statements will come in for them. There has to be intent to be found guilty of complicity. His lawyer already mentioned in court once that there was no intent so I assume that is where they will try to go with this. That may change.
-In the case of a person charged with complicity, the law requires that in order to be found guilty one must have the intent to commit the crime itself, not simply to assist another person.

Thank you Covert, I always appreciate your post I find them fact-based and free of personal opinions and emotions.