GUILTY OH - Pike Co, 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue, 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested #68

[Puzzles8]

Sorry, but I listened to that hearing 3 times and each time AC said they sat around the kitchen table (where they all ate their meals ewww) and took a vote on Jake and EW's sex life including where EW would sleep and when they would be allowed to engage in sex.

AC said it plain as day. It blew me away. And of course I naturally went to the dark place where I wondered if Jake and George were allowed to vote on whether Angela and Billy could have sexual relations. (BW and AW were in their early 40's, so yeah, it's probable and you all know me, I went there. lol)

The closest I have came to hearing anything like this was Waco, TX and David Koresh who declared no one could have sex with their wives. He was the only male who could have sex in the entire compound.



JMO

The kitchen table seems to have been an important meeting place in the Wagner households'.

I remember when Fred did her video interview.......she was seated at her kitchen table.....with her Bible (and her attorney).

JMO

 

[RAISINISBACK]

what do you think ac meant by "george modified the vehicle(murder truck) to be able to stow away" could they have (jw g4) in the bed of the truck when they tried to kill crsr from far away? ive seen the taliban use those toyota pick ups as tactical vehicles. did all wags come in same vehicle? what about the power line roads? lets consider what the wags were most afraid of/worst case scenario with crsr. 1. he is armed when he meets billy 2. hes able to get the upper hand in close quarters inside his trailer 3. weapons stashed inside or a "panic room" 4. alerting fr and calling for help 5. getting tipped off the deal was fake 6. dogs 7 get a shot off
what was the advantage of shooting from far away? maybe night vision? crsr not able to return fire? just having a hard time understanding why crsr let his guard down. like johnny b said maybe its all a big lie to cast crsr in a bad light due to drugs etc. something just doesnt compute here

BBM
maybe its all a big lie to cast crsr in a bad light due to drugs etc. something just doesnt compute here

Not sure what you mean here. Are you saying AC lied in court on record? Can you clarify please, as I am confused by what you posted?

IMO I think we can all reasonably expect only provable facts to be entered into court record by the prosecuting attorney. So in my opinion if AC said it in court on record I believe she can back up with solid proof what she said. JMO


just having a hard time understanding why crsr let his guard down.

I am not sure I understand this confusion with Billy being expected by Chris Sr at his house that night? The judge even interrupted AC to ask her if Billy was expected by Chris Sr to be at his house that night to which AC replied "Yes Chris expected Billy to be there at his house that night".

I wish Betty P could transcribe this hearing for us. It would clear up a lot for those who can't watch the entire video hearing or can't hear what is being said.

But remember that Billy and Chris were close or "best" friends for years. AC also implied, but I don't remember if she stated it directly, that Billy was transporting MJ for Chris e.g. "The very lucrative drug deal". To me that implied strongly that Billy had transported drugs for Chris previously.

Also consider that although they had a falling out the previous week, these two men had been friends for a long time according to other people. Friends have fights for various reasons all the time, then make up. Maybe Billy called Chris and apologized and Chris decided to forgive and forget since they were, as some termed it "best friends" and mutually benefitted in business deals.

One thing I think we are all over looking is the fact that AC said Hannah had told many people that Jake was physically abusing her, even to the point he "strangled (Hannah's word per AC) her" by pinning her against the wall with his arm over her throat area. We cannot know for sure since it has not been brought out in court, but I can assume if she told others, she also told her father. If so why didn't Chris confront Jake or Billy about this abuse much earlier when she was living with the W's.

This is pure conjecture, but from what we know of the R's propensity for confronting people and fighting over minor things such as derbies (articles and links in timeline on fights between R's and others over various things) I could easily see Chris Sr and Frankie storming over to the W's to confront Jake about this fact (stated in court hearing by AC) that Jake was abusing Hannah. So why didn't they? Or did they? We have no way of knowing that yet since it hasn't came out in MSM or court. But I can assume they did on probably a few occasions, and as with all parents, Billy and Angie jumping in to defend their son against Chris or Frankie. So from that I can assume this isn't the first time Chris and Billy fought over the relationship between Jake and Hannah but then went on to make up later, and continue to not only do business together but again be friends.

So to me there is nothing strange or odd about Billy calling Chris with a lucrative drug deal and Chris telling him to come over to talk about it. Except this time Billy didn't come to talk.

This is my opinion and theory only, other than facts stated in court by the Judge and AC.

JMO

 

[Ann99]

I tend to agree it was Bethel. Didn't the boys "purchase" the Peterson farm 7/2014?

This is IIRC. JMO

TY!
Initially i wondered if it could have been FWF.
I’ve not kept track of where they all lived at various times or the dates. Bethel or FWF, both are remote locations.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

TY!
Initially i wondered if it could have been FWF.
I’ve not kept track of where they all lived at various times or the dates. Bethel or FWF, both are remote locations.

I agree this would have been a terrifying journey for this woman biking down a dark rural road never knowing who might be approaching in a car behind you.

Dadgum tornadoes and severe thunderstorms flying all over Oklahoma again tonight so might lose electric if they come my way. Very annoying. Most annoying is if the tornado sirens go off hubby insists I get into the cellar/safe room where the steel will not allow you to get internet. I cannot catch a break here, lol.

JMO

 

[ohioexpat63]

JMO
I personally feel the Ws watched too much TV and thought they were being smart by modifying the truck. It makes zero sense, especially if 3 was knocking on the door. The 4 Ws weren't very smart. Keeping forged documents, leaving an electronic trail, keeping the weapons, running their mouths when they knew they were probably being recorded, etc, etc, etc...

I think they got away with so many petty crimes they thought they were invincible. Their actions were amazingly dumb. Imo

 

[Piffcat]

BBM
maybe its all a big lie to cast crsr in a bad light due to drugs etc. something just doesnt compute here

Not sure what you mean here. Are you saying AC lied in court on record? Can you clarify please, as I am confused by what you posted?

IMO I think we can all reasonably expect only provable facts to be entered into court record by the prosecuting attorney. So in my opinion if AC said it in court on record I believe she can back up with solid proof what she said. JMO


just having a hard time understanding why crsr let his guard down.

I am not sure I understand this confusion with Billy being expected by Chris Sr at his house that night? The judge even interrupted AC to ask her if Billy was expected by Chris Sr to be at his house that night to which AC replied "Yes Chris expected Billy to be there at his house that night".

I wish Betty P could transcribe this hearing for us. It would clear up a lot for those who can't watch the entire video hearing or can't hear what is being said.

But remember that Billy and Chris were close or "best" friends for years. AC also implied, but I don't remember if she stated it directly, that Billy was transporting MJ for Chris e.g. "The very lucrative drug deal". To me that implied strongly that Billy had transported drugs for Chris previously.

Also consider that although they had a falling out the previous week, these two men had been friends for a long time according to other people. Friends have fights for various reasons all the time, then make up. Maybe Billy called Chris and apologized and Chris decided to forgive and forget since they were, as some termed it "best friends" and mutually benefitted in business deals.

One thing I think we are all over looking is the fact that AC said Hannah had told many people that Jake was physically abusing her, even to the point he "strangled (Hannah's word per AC) her" by pinning her against the wall with his arm over her throat area. We cannot know for sure since it has not been brought out in court, but I can assume if she told others, she also told her father. If so why didn't Chris confront Jake or Billy about this abuse much earlier when she was living with the W's.

This is pure conjecture, but from what we know of the R's propensity for confronting people and fighting over minor things such as derbies (articles and links in timeline on fights between R's and others over various things) I could easily see Chris Sr and Frankie storming over to the W's to confront Jake about this fact (stated in court hearing by AC) that Jake was abusing Hannah. So why didn't they? Or did they? We have no way of knowing that yet since it hasn't came out in MSM or court. But I can assume they did on probably a few occasions, and as with all parents, Billy and Angie jumping in to defend their son against Chris or Frankie. So from that I can assume this isn't the first time Chris and Billy fought over the relationship between Jake and Hannah but then went on to make up later, and continue to not only do business together but again be friends.

So to me there is nothing strange or odd about Billy calling Chris with a lucrative drug deal and Chris telling him to come over to talk about it. Except this time Billy didn't come to talk.

This is my opinion and theory only, other than facts stated in court by the Judge and AC.

JMO

What I meant was that jw and aw may have misrepresented exaggerated or made up this fake drug deal. I don't think it's likely but it is possible they lied to ac about it knowing that in g4s trial painting crsr as a drug dealer could benefit g4 by slandering crsr to the jury. But mostly I can't make the jump from fist fight and guns drawn a week before the murders and crsr meeting bw unarmed the next week. When all facts are known maybe it will make more sense. Crsr seemed like a pragmatic level headed cautious businessman. So he drastically underestimated bw propensity for evil and violence

 

[OhioBlues]

BBM
maybe its all a big lie to cast crsr in a bad light due to drugs etc. something just doesnt compute here

Not sure what you mean here. Are you saying AC lied in court on record? Can you clarify please, as I am confused by what you posted?

IMO I think we can all reasonably expect only provable facts to be entered into court record by the prosecuting attorney. So in my opinion if AC said it in court on record I believe she can back up with solid proof what she said. JMO


just having a hard time understanding why crsr let his guard down.

I am not sure I understand this confusion with Billy being expected by Chris Sr at his house that night? The judge even interrupted AC to ask her if Billy was expected by Chris Sr to be at his house that night to which AC replied "Yes Chris expected Billy to be there at his house that night".

I wish Betty P could transcribe this hearing for us. It would clear up a lot for those who can't watch the entire video hearing or can't hear what is being said.

But remember that Billy and Chris were close or "best" friends for years. AC also implied, but I don't remember if she stated it directly, that Billy was transporting MJ for Chris e.g. "The very lucrative drug deal". To me that implied strongly that Billy had transported drugs for Chris previously.

Also consider that although they had a falling out the previous week, these two men had been friends for a long time according to other people. Friends have fights for various reasons all the time, then make up. Maybe Billy called Chris and apologized and Chris decided to forgive and forget since they were, as some termed it "best friends" and mutually benefitted in business deals.

One thing I think we are all over looking is the fact that AC said Hannah had told many people that Jake was physically abusing her, even to the point he "strangled (Hannah's word per AC) her" by pinning her against the wall with his arm over her throat area. We cannot know for sure since it has not been brought out in court, but I can assume if she told others, she also told her father. If so why didn't Chris confront Jake or Billy about this abuse much earlier when she was living with the W's.

This is pure conjecture, but from what we know of the R's propensity for confronting people and fighting over minor things such as derbies (articles and links in timeline on fights between R's and others over various things) I could easily see Chris Sr and Frankie storming over to the W's to confront Jake about this fact (stated in court hearing by AC) that Jake was abusing Hannah. So why didn't they? Or did they? We have no way of knowing that yet since it hasn't came out in MSM or court. But I can assume they did on probably a few occasions, and as with all parents, Billy and Angie jumping in to defend their son against Chris or Frankie. So from that I can assume this isn't the first time Chris and Billy fought over the relationship between Jake and Hannah but then went on to make up later, and continue to not only do business together but again be friends.

So to me there is nothing strange or odd about Billy calling Chris with a lucrative drug deal and Chris telling him to come over to talk about it. Except this time Billy didn't come to talk.

This is my opinion and theory only, other than facts stated in court by the Judge and AC.

JMO

I agree AC would not have said that unless she believed it to be true. AC is an officer of the court so she can't knowingly lie to the court or (I think) risk being disbarred.

I watched the hearing and posted that the video had closed captioning. I wish that someone would transcribe it too. It would be so much better to read it than try to go thru that video.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

What I meant was that jw and aw may have misrepresented exaggerated or made up this fake drug deal. I don't think it's likely but it is possible they lied to ac about it knowing that in g4s trial painting crsr as a drug dealer could benefit g4 by slandering crsr to the jury. But mostly I can't make the jump from fist fight and guns drawn a week before the murders and crsr meeting bw unarmed the next week. When all facts are known maybe it will make more sense. Crsr seemed like a pragmatic level headed cautious businessman. So he drastically underestimated bw propensity for evil and violence

BBM

What I meant was that jw and aw may have misrepresented exaggerated or made up this fake drug deal.

I would have to watch the video of the hearing again, but I don't recall AC mentioning where she received the information about the "drug deal". I am not sure she is relying solely on Jake and Angie for this information, but I cannot say that she is not either. The list she gave the defense contained over 300 names according to the defense.

Little O/T I cannot rewatch the hearing right now as we have severe thunderstorms in my area so having problems with my electric getting knocked off then coming back on. That of course knocks off my internet each time.

So I cannot say if AC was depending on information obtained solely from Jake and Angie. I will try to watch it again tomorrow and try to hear if AC mentioned if she was depending solely on Jake or Angie's proffer for this information about the "lucrative drug deal".

knowing that in g4s trial painting crsr as a drug dealer could benefit g4 by slandering crsr to the jury.

In view of the fact that Ohio voted to make medical marijuana legal shortly after the murders, that indicates to me IMO that the good people in Ohio does not have that bad of an opinion of MJ as a drug. In fact if the murders had happened a few months later Chris could have had his medical MJ license for a legal grow, so I am not sure him having a MJ grow would color their opinion of him at all. Also as compared to the 8 brutal murders the jury would be considering IMO they would not give a thought to Chris growing or selling MJ. IMO I think the jury will not even consider the MJ grow other than AC said Billy used it as a ruse to get Chris to let him come to his home. So IMO I think trying to slander or paint Chris as a "bad drug dealer" because he grew and sold some MJ would be a non starter for a jury who will undoubtably be looking at some really brutal crime scene photos.

As a footnote to how people's opinion of marijuana has changed, tonight an F1 tornado touched down in Seminole OK and destroyed a MJ grow (medical MJ is legal in OK) which was covered extensively on the news stations here. The video shows close ups of the plants blown over and the greenhouse collapsed. 20 years ago there is no way local TV stations would show an MJ grow on primetime news so that is a testament to how much opinions have changed of MJ as a drug. lol

JMO

 

[RAISINISBACK]

What I meant was that jw and aw may have misrepresented exaggerated or made up this fake drug deal. I don't think it's likely but it is possible they lied to ac about it knowing that in g4s trial painting crsr as a drug dealer could benefit g4 by slandering crsr to the jury. But mostly I can't make the jump from fist fight and guns drawn a week before the murders and crsr meeting bw unarmed the next week. When all facts are known maybe it will make more sense. Crsr seemed like a pragmatic level headed cautious businessman. So he drastically underestimated bw propensity for evil and violence

BBM

But mostly I can't make the jump from fist fight and guns drawn a week before the murders and crsr meeting bw unarmed the next week.

Have you ever had that friend or family member that has what is called a "hot temper" here in the south? Meaning they get very angry very easily and say and do things that they quickly regret and apologize for? We tend to look over these volatile tempered people and just wait patiently for them to cool down.

I am in no way saying this was the case with Billy and Chris , but it could be possible since there have been many people who have said these two men were long time friends, that Chris knew Billy was this way so he just reputably (no concrete fact) took the gun from Billy and took it all with a grain of salt knowing Billy would probably be calling to apologize in a day or two. This is just my opinion only and not based on any facts that have been presented in court.

JMO

 

[ohioexpat63]

For sure MJ is not the issue in southern Ohio. The pill mill epidemic, and now heroine, are the major issues. Opioids have devastated many families in the region.

I'd be curious as to what drugs the Ws ran.

I actually laughed when Dewine said the Rhodens grow ops was the largest known in the state. It was a total exaggeration as far as I'm concerned. The forests in the entire southern region are filled with pot grows, on a larger scale. From Athens and Meigs counties, thru Pike, Scioto and Lawrence counties are plenty of outdoor pot grows.

Opoid derivative drugs are now the cash crop. No one is being murdered, on a grand scale, over pot.

 

[CIA Team Member]

For sure MJ is not the issue in southern Ohio. The pill mill epidemic, and now heroine, are the major issues. Opioids have devastated many families in the region.

I'd be curious as to what drugs the Ws ran.

I actually laughed when Dewine said the Rhodens grow ops was the largest known in the state. It was a total exaggeration as far as I'm concerned. The forests in the entire southern region are filled with pot grows, on a larger scale. From Athens and Meigs counties, thru Pike, Scioto and Lawrence counties are plenty of outdoor pot grows.

Opoid derivative drugs are now the cash crop. No one is being murdered, on a grand scale, over pot.

IMO, they're old school. They didn't deviate what they grew to be one of Ohio's most popular pot sold. They stuck with what they knew.

 

[Covert Operative]

JMO
I personally feel the Ws watched too much TV and thought they were being smart by modifying the truck. It makes zero sense, especially if 3 was knocking on the door. The 4 Ws weren't very smart. Keeping forged documents, leaving an electronic trail, keeping the weapons, running their mouths when they knew they were probably being recorded, etc, etc, etc...

I think they got away with so many petty crimes they thought they were invincible. Their actions were amazingly dumb. Imo

To me when she said G4 and JW hid to try to shoot him, I thought that BW probably went up to the door initially to try to get him in front of the door or outside of the door and all 3 did not walk up there to begin with. Possibly CRSR got suspicious for some reason, when he saw the truck may be a different truck or a way BW was acting etc. BW may have realized at that point GR was in the home. CRSR may have made a run for it or tried to slam and lock the door on BW and then G4 and JW ran up and in. It will be interesting to find out.

 

[Covert Operative]

What I meant was that jw and aw may have misrepresented exaggerated or made up this fake drug deal. I don't think it's likely but it is possible they lied to ac about it knowing that in g4s trial painting crsr as a drug dealer could benefit g4 by slandering crsr to the jury. But mostly I can't make the jump from fist fight and guns drawn a week before the murders and crsr meeting bw unarmed the next week. When all facts are known maybe it will make more sense. Crsr seemed like a pragmatic level headed cautious businessman. So he drastically underestimated bw propensity for evil and violence

I think that Canepa believes it was a fake drug deal between BW and CRSR and I do agree that it is hard to understand that he would make one with BW after all of the issues there were with them/JW abusing HR, trying to get full custody, BW pulling a gun on him a week before etc. I do not think that will sway a jury because regardless if there was a fake deal, the jury will see it as the way to gain access to CRSR and that may be how they got the access to the other homes by taking his keys.

 

[Piffcat]

it certainly doesnt change my opinion of crsr i dont consider weed a drug at all. im also not 100 percent sure this drug deal involved weed, a"lucrative" deal would most likely be pills. crsr seemed to have the weed thing all figured out doubt he needed bw to sell his bud for him. i am just spinning my wheels because any information that comes from the wagners about the crime really cant be corroborated because they killed everyone else who would have first hand knowledge. i didnt mean in anyway to disparage ac or suggest she was being underhanded or dishonest. im just going on the assumption that everything jw and aw say is maximized in their advantage. jw and aw certainly didnt come forward for a moral reaon, they dont feel guilty. it was a realistic cost benefit decision. jw knew he would be convicted and most likely get the dp. g4 is possibly the only person jw actually cares about. his entire proffer is slanted in g4s favor. the whole "g4 came so billy wouldnt kill jake after" sends out huge bs alarm bells. so all statements made by jw and aw should be weighted with these facts in mind. anything that could benefit g4 or hurt the rhodens should be viewed with healthy skepticism. seems to me that crsr drastically underestimated how serious this custody situation was. it wasnt just the one fight with bw remember all the messages and voicemails back and forth. he just did not think it was going to be killed over

 

[Covert Operative]

it certainly doesnt change my opinion of crsr i dont consider weed a drug at all. im also not 100 percent sure this drug deal involved weed, a"lucrative" deal would most likely be pills. crsr seemed to have the weed thing all figured out doubt he needed bw to sell his bud for him. i am just spinning my wheels because any information that comes from the wagners about the crime really cant be corroborated because they killed everyone else who would have first hand knowledge. i didnt mean in anyway to disparage ac or suggest she was being underhanded or dishonest. im just going on the assumption that everything jw and aw say is maximized in their advantage. jw and aw certainly didnt come forward for a moral reaon, they dont feel guilty. it was a realistic cost benefit decision. jw knew he would be convicted and most likely get the dp. g4 is possibly the only person jw actually cares about. his entire proffer is slanted in g4s favor. the whole "g4 came so billy wouldnt kill jake after" sends out huge bs alarm bells. so all statements made by jw and aw should be weighted with these facts in mind. anything that could benefit g4 or hurt the rhodens should be viewed with healthy skepticism. seems to me that crsr drastically underestimated how serious this custody situation was. it wasnt just the one fight with bw remember all the messages and voicemails back and forth. he just did not think it was going to be killed over

I did not take it as you were trying to disparage Canepa at all. I took it as hard to understand why he would agree to meet BW and make a deal. I do not think anyone had thought that is what happened that night.

 

[Ann99]

IMO, AW was not brought up in a very healthy or stable situation and could not wait to get out of her house. Sadly, Billy (and the military) helped her leave.

The rest is history....

JMO

MO
Yes, its too bad we cant discuss (and I accept that) AW upbringing and home life and upbringing as a young girl.
MO More going on there than is realized.

 

[Ann99]

Is there a link to the entire hearing for GW4? I saw the 2 minute news clip. Is there an entire hearing video link or is it on YouTube?? TIA

I just had a thought -- maybe CRSR talked to DR and told her about GW3 coming over and that is what she was upset about while still at work, IMO. If true who knows who he told.

You could be right about CR telling DR this and it making her upset. I hadn't thought of that.
And maybe CR also told KR.

 

[IType]

I tend to agree it was Bethel. Didn't the boys "purchase" the Peterson farm 7/2014?

This is IIRC. JMO

In my notes--which I think I got from a timeline in the media/timeline thread--I have the Peterson Road farm purchase as February 2014. I can't swear this is accurate, though, so JMO.

 

[Covert Operative]

You could be right about CR telling DR this and it making her upset. I hadn't thought of that.
And maybe CR also told KR.

KR prob knew of that deal which may be why he was also killed. There are several reasons to me that KR may have been killed but that seems as good as any. He may have had product at his home the W's wanted to steal and did. Not going to get into naming all the reasons that come to mind.

What do you think that the ex BCI agent/now Police Captain I believe, will be testifying to on May 16th? The defense are the ones calling him but the prosecution agreed to it they said. Defense had said in the May 2nd hearing they would be calling him. Link to May 2nd hearing has been posted many times.

 

[Cool Cats]

Is there a link to the entire hearing for GW4? I saw the 2 minute news clip. Is there an entire hearing video link or is it on YouTube?? TIA

I just had a thought -- maybe CRSR talked to DR and told her about GW3 coming over and that is what she was upset about while still at work, IMO. If true who knows who he told.

Full Hearing today, almost 2 hours, Monday May 2, 2022 in this article:

Prosecution lays out 'other bad acts' by Wagner family that could be included at trial