OH - Pike Co - 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue - 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested #73

[justtrish]

I wanted to use these video times and piece in what we know Jake said from AC's opening statement.


PikeCountyMassacre_T01_D001_P1 (AC opening statement transcribed)

3122 Union Hill Road (Dana’s house)
4199 Union Hill Road (Chris Sr house)
4077 Union Hill Road (Frakie’s house)
799 Left Fork Road (Kenneth’s house)



Billy met up at Angela's house and he, Jake, and George got dressed and in his modified truck, the boys hidden in the back.

They drive to Chris Sr house at 4199 Union Hill Road. This route does not pass the camera that captured the trucks leaving union hill or returning. They enter Union hill road from the other end so wouldn’t drive past that camera.

• 10:55 P.M call from Chris Sr to Billy's phone (Jake claims Billy had him call his phone so he could find it and Chris Sr and Gary were shot shortly after this call)

So Chris Sr and Gary are killed around 11pm.

• Jake claims they walked to Frankie's and it was locked. Then they got in Chris Sr truck to drive by Dana's house at 3122 Union Hill Road (Away from the cameras) She wasn't home yet.
• They then drove down to Kenneth's which would have been back past Chris Sr house and toward the camera so this might be the first time it’s on camera at 1:36am
• 1:36 A.M.: Vehicle leaves the area of crime scenes on Union Hill Road and turns onto S.R. 772.
• 2 A.M.: A vehicle is seen driving off S.R. 772 down Union Hill Road toward the crime scenes.

So if this 1:36 was them leaving and returning at 2am, that leaves 24 minutes for them to get to Kenneths and back, which is plenty of time with a little extra.

• 2:29 A.M.: A vehicle is seen driving down Left Fork Road, toward Kenneth Rhoden’s camper.

I think this is possibly an outlier and not related to their movements that night

• 2:41 A.M.: Two vehicles are seen leaving the area of the crime scenes and making a left turn onto S.R. 772

So if we take the 2am camera showing them going to Union hill Rd and this 2:41 showing them leaving Union Hill that gives them 41 minutes to kill Dana, Hannah Mae, Chris Jr, Frankie, and Hanna Gilley. So their deaths would have been between 2 and 2:41am

• 2:51 A.M.: A vehicle is seen driving down Left Fork Road toward Kenneth Rhoden’s camper.

So this 2:51 gives them 10 minutes to drive from the first camera and have George pull off to the little spot to be a lookout, then Jake and Billy in Chris’s truck drive up to Kenneth's

• 3:10 A.M. A vehicle is seen driving away from Kenneth Rhoden’s camper on Left Fork Road.

This leaves 19 minutes for them to kill Kenneth and be leaving past that camera

• 3:19 A.M.: Two vehicles drive down S.R. 772 and turn onto Union Hill Road toward the crime scenes.

9 minutes after Jake and Billy leave Kenneth's and are on camera both trucks are seen on the camera heading toward Union Hill Road. Seems in line with the 10 minutes it took to go from camera near Union Hill to get to camera near Kenneth's.

 

[justtrish]

I wanted to try to add in the last phone communications with each victim, but wanted to post first to see if anyone sees anything I missed.

The phone data is going to be off because Dana's last text was after 3am. So if she wasn't killed between 2-2:41, then did they kill Frankie and Hanna Gilley and then go kill Kenneth and come back for Dana, Chris Jr. and Hanna Mae? They were headed back toward the Union Hill houses at 3:19am.

Did they text from Dana's phone to make it seem she was alive? I don't think we have the data showing what the texts said since the phones were not recovered.

 

[rsd1200]

I wanted to try to add in the last phone communications with each victim, but wanted to post first to see if anyone sees anything I missed.

The phone data is going to be off because Dana's last text was after 3am. So if she wasn't killed between 2-2:41, then did they kill Frankie and Hanna Gilley and then go kill Kenneth and come back for Dana, Chris Jr. and Hanna Mae? They were headed back toward the Union Hill houses at 3:19am.

Did they text from Dana's phone to make it seem she was alive? I don't think we have the data showing what the texts said since the phones were not recovered.

I think they did the texting. IIRC, the coroner said that CR1 and GR were killed at around 11 p.m. I think the Ws did all the posting and texting. Until she said that, I did not, but her testimony changed my mind.

 

[ColMustard]

There's the one house, where the owner lived out of state, that had it's camera stolen.

 

[justtrish]

There's the one house, where the owner lived out of state, that had it's camera stolen.

Have you seen where that location was? I don't recall seeing it being mentioned where this was.

Edited to add I found it 51 union hill road. Going to map those all out now.

 

[Myland]

Jmo but when it first happened a rumor was law enforcement found Chris sr blood at all scenes and it was thought the killers took Cr to all homes. I never believed that rumor because I felt in that case cr would have fought to his death to protect family. But I wonder now if what was really known by LE was that inside Cr S truck was blood from all scenes. Has anyone heard that mentioned yet? Cause if Jake telling truth there had to be some blood in truck. Jmo

 

[justtrish]

51 Union hill road is at the beginning of union hill road. It's the direction the Wagner's would have driven in from to get to Chris Sr house. They would have passed Dana's on the way in at 3122, then arrived at Chris's at 4199, then to get to Kenneth's they kept on going further down Union Hill Road and turned off to other road. So if they were trying to prevent any camera footage, they must not have known about the cameras or maybe they didn't think anyone would be looking that far away. I don't think it was coincidence that one camera is missing. Wonder if Jake mentioned this in his statement?

 

[ColMustard]

Jmo but when it first happened a rumor was law enforcement found Chris sr blood at all scenes and it was thought the killers took Cr to all homes. I never believed that rumor because I felt in that case cr would have fought to his death to protect family. But I wonder now if what was really known by LE was that inside Cr S truck was blood from all scenes. Has anyone heard that mentioned yet? Cause if Jake telling truth there had to be some blood in truck. Jmo

That's interesting.

Not much has been said yet about the truck as far as any evidence inside, there is still the GPS data on a Ford F150 that hasn't been brought up yet.

I still don't know which truck was CR's.

I can't say there was a silver truck on any of the videos. But it's possible they were both red.

 

[ColMustard]

51 Union hill road is at the beginning of union hill road. It's the direction the Wagner's would have driven in from to get to Chris Sr house. They would have passed Dana's on the way in at 3122, then arrived at Chris's at 4199, then to get to Kenneth's they kept on going further down Union Hill Road and turned off to other road. So if they were trying to prevent any camera footage, they must not have known about the cameras or maybe they didn't think anyone would be looking that far away. I don't think it was coincidence that one camera is missing. Wonder if Jake mentioned this in his statement?

I agree, MOO, they could've taken that camera before the murders, and probably knew when the owner wasn't there. Believe they said he lived in Michigan.

Reminds of the people coming through the woods toward CRsr's home with flashlights one night after the murders. After that they decided to move everything. Wonder who that could've been?

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Some of the items that gave me an initial pause regarding the Wagners (Jake)
-confusing and correcting reports on when he picked up the daughter
-Observations early on that his hair had been colored

I haven’t followed all the testimony closely due to other commitments, but I noted the following yesterday:
“The first line is an outgoing voice call with a duration of 27 seconds to Billy Wagner’s phone. It was at 8:51 pm,” said Eveslage.
The last phone activity on Chris Sr.’s phone the night he died was five minutes before 11 p.m. and it was to Billy Wagner. “Less than a minute later, another outgoing call to Billy Wagner’s phone and that’s the last activity,” the BCI agent said on the stand.

BCI agents testify about shoeprints, phone records in Pike County massacre trial

George Wagner IV has pleaded not guilty to eight counts of aggravated murder in the Rhoden family killings

www.fox19.com

It seems this alone would have placed Billy being in a grouping of possible suspects early on. Billy was the last noted communications according to phone records. CRSR’s home was the most violent scene.

And of course here is HR communicating with Jake that night:

Agent Eveslage said Hanna was in contact with Jake the night she was murdered.

Here’s the timeline Eveslage laid out in court:

”At 9:02 p.m., an outgoing text message to Jake Wagner.”

“At 9:03 p.m., and incoming text from Jake Wagner.”

“9:07 p.m., an incoming text from Jake Wagner.”

“At 9:35 p.m., there’s an outgoing voice call attempt to Jake Wagner’s phone,” Agent Eveslage testified. “It has a zero-second duration. Without having the other end of the records in front of me, I can’t exactly determine what happened with that call, but it did have a duration of zero seconds on her side.”

So it would seem he would have been a top suspect as they looked at her victimology.
——
Maybe the Wagners were on the short of suspects for quite some time. It will be interesting to hear more as it unfolds.

I hope it’s coming, or maybe I have missed it, but as a juror I would be anxiously waiting to hear Georges name. George did this or George did that. I feel the state could benefit by using his name more often in an effort to grab the jury’s attention. Even if they could use a phrase during the trial such as “George Wagner and his family did XYZ” rather than “The Wagners”.
JMO

, but as a juror I would be anxiously waiting to hear Georges name. George did this or George did that. I feel the state could benefit by using his name more often in an effort to grab the jury’s attention. Even if they could use a phrase during the trial such as “George Wagner and his family did XYZ” rather than “The Wagners”.

BBM

That is where I am at. I have watched the testimony, viewed the evidence. But I have not seen one thing that puts George on the scene of the murders. I knew the shoes would be iffy, especially when it was said they were bought from Walmart for 15.00. Thousands of people buy cheap shoes from Walmart, myself included. In order for the shoes to be relevant the prosecution has to put them on George's feet. For me they didn't even prove George ever saw those shoes. All they have is Angie saying she bought them for him. The only thing Angie can testify to is what happened before the men walked out the door of the W house. She can't even place George in the truck since it has been accepted by the state that she stayed home. The shoes were a huge letdown for me, especially combined with JM's testimony that you had people running around inside the crime scenes contaminating the scenes before LE got there to secure them. Add to this that the prosecution admits these cheap Walmart shoes are not even in the size George wears. It's a non starter for me if I am sitting on that jury.

I had high hopes for the ballistics. Prosecution says 3 guns were used. Billy = Glock .40, Jake =Walther Colt 1911 .22 and George =SKS .30. The problem is the prosecution cannot place that SKS.30 in George's hands at any of the crime scenes. They have not even placed him there. No DNA, no forensic evidence. Nothing but Angie saying he walked out her door with the other two and Jake saying he was there. The defense is going to tear both of them a new one. Keep in mind that George's defense team does not care if they catch Jake or Angie in a lie and the DP is off the table as long as they get their client (George) a not guilty verdict. If it comes back not guilty doesn't matter to them what sentence Jake and Angie gets since they are some other attorneys' problem. Plus they both confessed to the crime. The ballistics are also a non starter for me if I am sitting on George's jury.

I was hoping they would get a good clear picture of George in the vehicle with the other 2. But from what I saw the jury and I would be hard pressed to say what kind of vehicle was captured on those cameras since virtually all you can see is the headlights and the back of the vehicle. If Chris had GPS in his truck it would tell where that truck went that night, to Kenny's, to Dana's, to Frankie's and what time but it is not going to tell who was driving it and unless they have George's DNA or some kind of forensics placing him in the truck, that is also a non starter for me.

The fact that he went with Jake and Angie to buy the truck isn't even evidence for me. I have went with my son, GS's, sister, brother and even friends when they were going to buy a vehicle. So I cannot even consider that as evidence unless George told the cousin they bought it from "Hey we want to buy this truck so we can use it to murder 8 people." Then there would be a witness that George bought the truck for that. And where is the proof he modified it? How can they prove that he did that and not Jake? Even if they could prove he did alter the truck how can they prove he did it to kill 8 people?

They claim he bought stuff to make a silencer, a mask, and some other things. But then they say the silencers were made out of car parts. That's a non starter for me also if I am on that jury because I have bought both an oil filter and a fuel filter at various times in my life for my own and family autos. I am betting there are many on that jury that has too. Probably bought many masks also for various reasons.

As far as digital evidence e.g. wiretapping, they could not have any evidence of George in on the planning since that would have been before the murders. Don't have any during, since all 4 W's cell phones were at home. They may have some of George running his mouth a couple years (Remember folks those bugs were not installed in vehicles until AFTER they returned from AK at the Canadian border.) Jake says they all knew they were in the vehicles. So I am not holding out much hope on that either.

As far as the ex wife's testimony. She is an EX-WIFE who lost custody of her son and is trying to get her son back. How much faith do we put in what she says knowing that? Or that there could be a history of a bitter divorce between them. Keep in mind, even in jail George's made a request that his ex wife get a mental examine before she was given custody of their son. That would weigh on me if I were on the jury. Ex-wives and Ex-husbands are notoriously hostile to each other.

Then you have the other ex-wife EW, or better known as Jakes. Jake admitted George did not like her and pressured him to get a divorce from her. Jake stated he did not want to divorce her. How much of that weighed in what Jake said about George in his proffer? He may be totally P'Oed at his brother for that. EW might be also. I am looking forward to hearing both ex's testify.

Right now I don't even think they have enough to convict Billy. According to the way Jake laid out the events of that night, saying Chris Sr and Gary were ambushed and the others were all asleep in their beds, it's possible one person could have killed all 8. Jake could have killed all 8 after stealing Billy's phone and leaving it and George and Billy home in bed asleep with the kids with Angie backing him up. Jake are the only 2 who have admitted to anything. I think that is only because they had the laptop of Angies with Hannah's FB screenshot on it and the custody documents. That implicated both Angie and Jake. FIVE YEARS passed before they could get Jake to confess. All 4 sat in jail for that entire time. Angie followed suit and cut a deal.

George and Billy have sat in jail almost 6 years and have never moved off their not guilty plea. A friend of mine asked me "well if you did not do something would you plead guilty to it or would you wait as long as it takes to have your day in court to prove your innocence?" It really did make me think about why George would sit in jail 6 years and not plead to something, even if it was accessory after the fact.

For my part I think Billy was very abusive to Angie. In discovery, prior acts, it says Billy stuck a gun to Angie's head. You don't get to that level of domestic violence without there being a lot of slaps, hits, kicks, ect over a number of years. In other words as far as domestic violence goes, it escalates, a man just doesn't stick a gun to his wife's head right off the bat in the first incident. That's not how DV works. So I can see Angie and her SON trying to burn Billy for all those years of abuse.

I am going to be waiting eagerly for the prosecution to present some real evidence against George alone instead of lumping him in with the W4"s and trying to get a jury to convict him with a guilty by association. Right now all the real evidence I have seen has been evidence against Angie (laptop and forgery) and Jake who led them to the weapons and burn pile.

Truthfully all I can see right now is MAYBE obstruction of justice charge. I can't even see an accessory after the fact since Jake admitted he went alone to dispose of the weapons, Jake admitted he burned clothes and shoes used and other evidence. No proof from the prosecution George was anywhere around.

JMO

 

[teresa1589]

for Wed. 9/28:

Evan Millward
@EvanMillward
·
6m
PIKE COUNTY TRIAL: Now on the stand - BCI special agent Ryan Scheiderer - he led this investigation for the agency. Started at BCI in March 2012.

View attachment 369631

Scheiderer was working in his yard the morning of 4/22/2016 - left his house at 9:30a and got to Piketon PD briefing area around 11:30a
"This was a very chaotic day, this was a big incident ... it's a lot even for BCI."

Scheiderer was told to respond to 4077 Union Hill Road- crime scene 1 - this was Chris Rhoden Sr's property - the first one discovered.
He remembers it taking a while to get there - and then having to wait in the road outside until warrant came back.

Scheiderer then left scene to go to Sheriff's Office to interview family members - James and Bobby Jo Manley, Billy Morgan, Luke Rhoden.

Scheiderer says the Pike Co. Sheriff's Office asked for BCI to handle the case.
It assigned two majors to BCI's investigative team - to help get uniformed deputies if needed etc.

Scheiderer says eventually they had to regroup together back at Piketon PD. Tips and info is coming in "so fast, it overwhelms you."
He says "We knew we were gonna be in for the long haul on this."

Scheiderer says he immediately went to track down a Jones family, which people had told them had a fight with Chris Jr. about 10 days before murders. Isaiah and Larry Jones claimed to take credit for murders.
BCI ultimately cleared them.

BCI set up a tip system to track and monitor volume of tips. They would get tip, assign to agent, agent would go track it down and report back.

Scheiderer became lead agent on this case in March or April 2017.
He has authored 165-167 reports out of about 835 for this case. That excludes lab reports.

Scheiderer describes doing "victimology" first - trying to get a sense of who these 8 people were. Also had to go to companies like Facebook to preserve records.
Cell tower data dumps challenging because everyone out there is on the same towers.

Scheiderer notes that Facebook messenger was often used in the area instead of texts because of spotty service.
We know one Hanna May Rhoden FB message will play big later.

Scheiderer calls this a "whodunnit murder."

Scheiderer says BCI rushed DNA results, but none of that was useful. Most was DNA of victims - or saturated, which means there's too much to get a match.

Scheiderer says they also did "old school police work" of door knocking and asking for security video.
Problems because Union Hill Rd was closed and people left - because of fear and for convenience since they couldn't get in or out.

Scheiderer says they looked into all tips - including from psychics, inmates, out-of-state, even had something connected to the death of Prince

Scheiderer says Facebook doesn't make it easy to go through its data, "in fact, they're not very cooperative."

A few things about the scenes jumped out to him: the roads were secluded, no sign of forced entry, missing cameras/DVR.
At Chris Sr's, the victims were drug, but not at others.
At Dana's, no one got out of bed.
Seemed like people who did this knew them

Scheiderer notes the marijuana grow ops - says they quickly ruled this out as motive because the plants would have been stolen.
Said they kept it in mind though - explore all options.

Scheiderer now says Dana's home (Scene 3) is in fact in Scioto County. At the time, all belief was that it was in Pike Co. In fact, a sign nearby says "Welcome to Pike Co."
Also says BCI got list of people who knew they had just moved in there.

Scheiderer says BCI also got video that shows Dana stopping at a mart on her way home from her double shift late that night.
Also has security footage of Frankie going to a store for milk that night.

Scheiderer showing a map now - the red locations are crime scenes, the purple locations are where they got video (residences). The jury visited these locations - at the time, we in media pool were unclear why we stopped there.

View attachment 369632

The yellow location is where a homeowner said they had a camera up. he was out of town - got back one week after murders and discovered the camera was missing.

Back from break - Scheiderer shows some rough video taken from a home at Union Hill Road and SR 772 - timestamp is delayed - actually around 1:36 a.m.
Vehicle away from 772 (toward crime scenes).
Other photo is this property from jury view

View attachment 369633

Another clip - from around 241AM (again, timestamp is off) - two vehicles traveling simultaneously away from crime scenes and toward Union Hill Rd intersection with SR 772

[The screen is blank - so no picture]

Another angle - same time (2:41AM) - shows the two vehicles turn left on SR-772

View attachment 369634 View attachment 369635

Then at 319AM (corrected time) you see two vehicles come back from that direction and turn right from 772 onto Union Hill Rd

View attachment 369636

New location now - camera picks up a single vehicle driving toward Kenneth's property - and driving away again at 310AM (that's the screenshot below)

View attachment 369637

Jake Wagner was interviewed at the Sheriff's Office on May 13, 2016 - he did not provide his phone.
Scheiderer says he learned this is not Jake's natural hair color.

View attachment 369638

Leonard Manley (Dana's dad) had same Walmart shoes in size 10. Scheiderer says he had thrown them away, they pulled them, and tested to clear him.
Leonard definitely told reporters about this back then - he felt like he was being considered a suspect.

On cross-examination with John Parker, Scheiderer says Leonard Manley bought the Walmart shoes in February 2016.
Suzanne Elliott previously testified they got them out of the trash 27 days after the murders (in May).

Scheiderer says BCI has collected/generated 4 terabytes of evidence in this case.

Parker focuses in on the Scioto County issue with Scene 3 - Dana's house.

Scheiderer says he learned it was in Scioto Co. after the indictments & arrests - but doesn't know how long after. He did not document it.

Things get chippy asking Scheiderer about venue.

Parker asks him if he's aware the Ohio Constitution requires a trial take place in county where crime was committed.

Canepa comes back saying this has been argued already.

Adjourn for the day.

Evan Millward
@EvanMillward
·
5h
PIKE COUNTY TRIAL - #BREAKING: Court will not be in session tomorrow (Thursday 9/29) because of an illnes

ETA: Watching those spooky security cam videos last night of the Wagners driving back and forth on Hwy 722 and Union Hill Rd and Left Fork Rd was eerie and frightening. So much evil creeping around that night. Its enough to give you nightmares.

I saw a still photo of their truck where you could see the headlights. Is there actual footage that actually shows their trucks driving down the road?

If so can you or anyone else link me. How weird to see something like this.

I was sure they would be caught somewhere on video. Sounds like they were caught on a few different videos.

I wanted to use these video times and piece in what we know Jake said from AC's opening statement.


PikeCountyMassacre_T01_D001_P1 (AC opening statement transcribed)

3122 Union Hill Road (Dana’s house)
4199 Union Hill Road (Chris Sr house)
4077 Union Hill Road (Frakie’s house)
799 Left Fork Road (Kenneth’s house)



Billy met up at Angela's house and he, Jake, and George got dressed and in his modified truck, the boys hidden in the back.

They drive to Chris Sr house at 4199 Union Hill Road. This route does not pass the camera that captured the trucks leaving union hill or returning. They enter Union hill road from the other end so wouldn’t drive past that camera.

• 10:55 P.M call from Chris Sr to Billy's phone (Jake claims Billy had him call his phone so he could find it and Chris Sr and Gary were shot shortly after this call)

So Chris Sr and Gary are killed around 11pm.

• Jake claims they walked to Frankie's and it was locked. Then they got in Chris Sr truck to drive by Dana's house at 3122 Union Hill Road (Away from the cameras) She wasn't home yet.
• They then drove down to Kenneth's which would have been back past Chris Sr house and toward the camera so this might be the first time it’s on camera at 1:36am
• 1:36 A.M.: Vehicle leaves the area of crime scenes on Union Hill Road and turns onto S.R. 772.
• 2 A.M.: A vehicle is seen driving off S.R. 772 down Union Hill Road toward the crime scenes.

So if this 1:36 was them leaving and returning at 2am, that leaves 24 minutes for them to get to Kenneths and back, which is plenty of time with a little extra.

• 2:29 A.M.: A vehicle is seen driving down Left Fork Road, toward Kenneth Rhoden’s camper.

I think this is possibly an outlier and not related to their movements that night

• 2:41 A.M.: Two vehicles are seen leaving the area of the crime scenes and making a left turn onto S.R. 772

So if we take the 2am camera showing them going to Union hill Rd and this 2:41 showing them leaving Union Hill that gives them 41 minutes to kill Dana, Hannah Mae, Chris Jr, Frankie, and Hanna Gilley. So their deaths would have been between 2 and 2:41am

• 2:51 A.M.: A vehicle is seen driving down Left Fork Road toward Kenneth Rhoden’s camper.

So this 2:51 gives them 10 minutes to drive from the first camera and have George pull off to the little spot to be a lookout, then Jake and Billy in Chris’s truck drive up to Kenneth's

• 3:10 A.M. A vehicle is seen driving away from Kenneth Rhoden’s camper on Left Fork Road.

This leaves 19 minutes for them to kill Kenneth and be leaving past that camera

• 3:19 A.M.: Two vehicles drive down S.R. 772 and turn onto Union Hill Road toward the crime scenes.

9 minutes after Jake and Billy leave Kenneth's and are on camera both trucks are seen on the camera heading toward Union Hill Road. Seems in line with the 10 minutes it took to go from camera near Union Hill to get to camera near Kenneth's.

I wanted to use these video times and piece in what we know Jake said from AC's opening statement.


PikeCountyMassacre_T01_D001_P1 (AC opening statement transcribed)

3122 Union Hill Road (Dana’s house)
4199 Union Hill Road (Chris Sr house)
4077 Union Hill Road (Frakie’s house)
799 Left Fork Road (Kenneth’s house)



Billy met up at Angela's house and he, Jake, and George got dressed and in his modified truck, the boys hidden in the back.

They drive to Chris Sr house at 4199 Union Hill Road. This route does not pass the camera that captured the trucks leaving union hill or returning. They enter Union hill road from the other end so wouldn’t drive past that camera.

• 10:55 P.M call from Chris Sr to Billy's phone (Jake claims Billy had him call his phone so he could find it and Chris Sr and Gary were shot shortly after this call)

So Chris Sr and Gary are killed around 11pm.

• Jake claims they walked to Frankie's and it was locked. Then they got in Chris Sr truck to drive by Dana's house at 3122 Union Hill Road (Away from the cameras) She wasn't home yet.
• They then drove down to Kenneth's which would have been back past Chris Sr house and toward the camera so this might be the first time it’s on camera at 1:36am
• 1:36 A.M.: Vehicle leaves the area of crime scenes on Union Hill Road and turns onto S.R. 772.
• 2 A.M.: A vehicle is seen driving off S.R. 772 down Union Hill Road toward the crime scenes.

So if this 1:36 was them leaving and returning at 2am, that leaves 24 minutes for them to get to Kenneths and back, which is plenty of time with a little extra.

• 2:29 A.M.: A vehicle is seen driving down Left Fork Road, toward Kenneth Rhoden’s camper.

I think this is possibly an outlier and not related to their movements that night

• 2:41 A.M.: Two vehicles are seen leaving the area of the crime scenes and making a left turn onto S.R. 772

So if we take the 2am camera showing them going to Union hill Rd and this 2:41 showing them leaving Union Hill that gives them 41 minutes to kill Dana, Hannah Mae, Chris Jr, Frankie, and Hanna Gilley. So their deaths would have been between 2 and 2:41am

• 2:51 A.M.: A vehicle is seen driving down Left Fork Road toward Kenneth Rhoden’s camper.

So this 2:51 gives them 10 minutes to drive from the first camera and have George pull off to the little spot to be a lookout, then Jake and Billy in Chris’s truck drive up to Kenneth's

• 3:10 A.M. A vehicle is seen driving away from Kenneth Rhoden’s camper on Left Fork Road.

This leaves 19 minutes for them to kill Kenneth and be leaving past that camera

• 3:19 A.M.: Two vehicles drive down S.R. 772 and turn onto Union Hill Road toward the crime scenes.

9 minutes after Jake and Billy leave Kenneth's and are on camera both trucks are seen on the camera heading toward Union Hill Road. Seems in line with the 10 minutes it took to go from camera near Union Hill to get to camera near Kenneth's.

JMO, but think they could’ve gone to the matriarch’s home when turned on 772 & returned to Union Hill Road.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

This is what today's shoe expert said:

On redirect, the state asked, “Can you testify that George Wagner was wearing the shoes?” and the woman said “no.” In the end, the expert was unable to testify if any of the Wagners wore the shoes.

DAY 13: Defense introduces reasonable doubt with shoes, while state goes over phone records in Wagner trial

WAVERLY, Ohio — The thirteenth day of trial for George Wagner IV in Pike County saw reasonable doubt introduced for the first time in the trial that has spanned three weeks, with several more…

sciotovalleyguardian.com

On redirect, the state asked, “Can you testify that George Wagner was wearing the shoes?” and the woman said “no.” In the end, the expert was unable to testify if any of the Wagners wore the shoes.


This.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

I believe AC said in opening statements that George and Jake dyed their hair very dark the week of the murders and George was a Norman Reedus fan (dark hair), who is in Boondock Saints. (However, I have seen in MSM articles and/or tweets that it was Jake who was a Norman Reedus fan, so not exactly sure which one of the brothers is correct in that aspect). IMO they dyed their hair right before the murders to look like the Boondock Saints when they committed the murders.

JMO

What throws me is George's hair, although receding is dark, almost black right now, in court. How much darker could he dye it? I can see Jake dyeing his since his was blonde/light brown.

JMO

 

[Myland]

, but as a juror I would be anxiously waiting to hear Georges name. George did this or George did that. I feel the state could benefit by using his name more often in an effort to grab the jury’s attention. Even if they could use a phrase during the trial such as “George Wagner and his family did XYZ” rather than “The Wagners”.

BBM

That is where I am at. I have watched the testimony, viewed the evidence. But I have not seen one thing that puts George on the scene of the murders. I knew the shoes would be iffy, especially when it was said they were bought from Walmart for 15.00. Thousands of people buy cheap shoes from Walmart, myself included. In order for the shoes to be relevant the prosecution has to put them on George's feet. For me they didn't even prove George ever saw those shoes. All they have is Angie saying she bought them for him. The only thing Angie can testify to is what happened before the men walked out the door of the W house. She can't even place George in the truck since it has been accepted by the state that she stayed home. The shoes were a huge letdown for me, especially combined with JM's testimony that you had people running around inside the crime scenes contaminating the scenes before LE got there to secure them. Add to this that the prosecution admits these cheap Walmart shoes are not even in the size George wears. It's a non starter for me if I am sitting on that jury.

I had high hopes for the ballistics. Prosecution says 3 guns were used. Billy = Glock .40, Jake =Walther Colt 1911 .22 and George =SKS .30. The problem is the prosecution cannot place that SKS.30 in George's hands at any of the crime scenes. They have not even placed him there. No DNA, no forensic evidence. Nothing but Angie saying he walked out her door with the other two and Jake saying he was there. The defense is going to tear both of them a new one. Keep in mind that George's defense team does not care if they catch Jake or Angie in a lie and the DP is off the table as long as they get their client (George) a not guilty verdict. If it comes back not guilty doesn't matter to them what sentence Jake and Angie gets since they are some other attorneys' problem. Plus they both confessed to the crime. The ballistics are also a non starter for me if I am sitting on George's jury.

I was hoping they would get a good clear picture of George in the vehicle with the other 2. But from what I saw the jury and I would be hard pressed to say what kind of vehicle was captured on those cameras since virtually all you can see is the headlights and the back of the vehicle. If Chris had GPS in his truck it would tell where that truck went that night, to Kenny's, to Dana's, to Frankie's and what time but it is not going to tell who was driving it and unless they have George's DNA or some kind of forensics placing him in the truck, that is also a non starter for me.

The fact that he went with Jake and Angie to buy the truck isn't even evidence for me. I have went with my son, GS's, sister, brother and even friends when they were going to buy a vehicle. So I cannot even consider that as evidence unless George told the cousin they bought it from "Hey we want to buy this truck so we can use it to murder 8 people." Then there would be a witness that George bought the truck for that. And where is the proof he modified it? How can they prove that he did that and not Jake? Even if they could prove he did alter the truck how can they prove he did it to kill 8 people?

They claim he bought stuff to make a silencer, a mask, and some other things. But then they say the silencers were made out of car parts. That's a non starter for me also if I am on that jury because I have bought both an oil filter and a fuel filter at various times in my life for my own and family autos. I am betting there are many on that jury that has too. Probably bought many masks also for various reasons.

As far as digital evidence e.g. wiretapping, they could not have any evidence of George in on the planning since that would have been before the murders. Don't have any during, since all 4 W's cell phones were at home. They may have some of George running his mouth a couple years (Remember folks those bugs were not installed in vehicles until AFTER they returned from AK at the Canadian border.) Jake says they all knew they were in the vehicles. So I am not holding out much hope on that either.

As far as the ex wife's testimony. She is an EX-WIFE who lost custody of her son and is trying to get her son back. How much faith do we put in what she says knowing that? Or that there could be a history of a bitter divorce between them. Keep in mind, even in jail George's made a request that his ex wife get a mental examine before she was given custody of their son. That would weigh on me if I were on the jury. Ex-wives and Ex-husbands are notoriously hostile to each other.

Then you have the other ex-wife EW, or better known as Jakes. Jake admitted George did not like her and pressured him to get a divorce from her. Jake stated he did not want to divorce her. How much of that weighed in what Jake said about George in his proffer? He may be totally P'Oed at his brother for that. EW might be also. I am looking forward to hearing both ex's testify.

Right now I don't even think they have enough to convict Billy. According to the way Jake laid out the events of that night, saying Chris Sr and Gary were ambushed and the others were all asleep in their beds, it's possible one person could have killed all 8. Jake could have killed all 8 after stealing Billy's phone and leaving it and George and Billy home in bed asleep with the kids with Angie backing him up. Jake are the only 2 who have admitted to anything. I think that is only because they had the laptop of Angies with Hannah's FB screenshot on it and the custody documents. That implicated both Angie and Jake. FIVE YEARS passed before they could get Jake to confess. All 4 sat in jail for that entire time. Angie followed suit and cut a deal.

George and Billy have sat in jail almost 6 years and have never moved off their not guilty plea. A friend of mine asked me "well if you did not do something would you plead guilty to it or would you wait as long as it takes to have your day in court to prove your innocence?" It really did make me think about why George would sit in jail 6 years and not plead to something, even if it was accessory after the fact.

For my part I think Billy was very abusive to Angie. In discovery, prior acts, it says Billy stuck a gun to Angie's head. You don't get to that level of domestic violence without there being a lot of slaps, hits, kicks, ect over a number of years. In other words as far as domestic violence goes, it escalates, a man just doesn't stick a gun to his wife's head right off the bat in the first incident. That's not how DV works. So I can see Angie and her SON trying to burn Billy for all those years of abuse.

I am going to be waiting eagerly for the prosecution to present some real evidence against George alone instead of lumping him in with the W4"s and trying to get a jury to convict him with a guilty by association. Right now all the real evidence I have seen has been evidence against Angie (laptop and forgery) and Jake who led them to the weapons and burn pile.

Truthfully all I can see right now is MAYBE obstruction of justice charge. I can't even see an accessory after the fact since Jake admitted he went alone to dispose of the weapons, Jake admitted he burned clothes and shoes used and other evidence. No proof from the prosecution George was anywhere around.

JMO

I completely agree with you. The state has to put George at the scenes with something or tie him to something. Anyone can have a monster in their family but you can’t put someone to life or death without some evidence linking them there or involved in some way. I don’t say this to take up for George because I think he was probably involved but if one of my family was was going to spend the rest of my life or get death I would hope a jury would decide that based on more Well I Think it Could Have Happen cause they were family. Jmo but I completely understand the Rhoden and Gilley side too if I was one of them I would want the entire Wagner family to suffer no matter what the state had on them. Jmo

 

[RAISINISBACK]

I believe AC said in opening statements that George and Jake dyed their hair very dark the week of the murders and George was a Norman Reedus fan (dark hair), who is in Boondock Saints. (However, I have seen in MSM articles and/or tweets that it was Jake who was a Norman Reedus fan, so not exactly sure which one of the brothers is correct in that aspect). IMO they dyed their hair right before the murders to look like the Boondock Saints when they committed the murders.

JMO

And jake had blonde/ light brown hair.

JMO

 

[justtrish]

That is where I am at. I have watched the testimony, viewed the evidence. But I have not seen one thing that puts George on the scene of the murders. I knew the shoes would be iffy, especially when it was said they were bought from Walmart for 15.00. Thousands of people buy cheap shoes from Walmart, myself included. In order for the shoes to be relevant the prosecution has to put them on George's feet. For me they didn't even prove George ever saw those shoes. All they have is Angie saying she bought them for him. The only thing Angie can testify to is what happened before the men walked out the door of the W house. She can't even place George in the truck since it has been accepted by the state that she stayed home. The shoes were a huge letdown for me, especially combined with JM's testimony that you had people running around inside the crime scenes contaminating the scenes before LE got there to secure them. Add to this that the prosecution admits these cheap Walmart shoes are not even in the size George wears. It's a non starter for me if I am sitting on that jury.

I had high hopes for the ballistics. Prosecution says 3 guns were used. Billy = Glock .40, Jake =Walther Colt 1911 .22 and George =SKS .30. The problem is the prosecution cannot place that SKS.30 in George's hands at any of the crime scenes. They have not even placed him there. No DNA, no forensic evidence. Nothing but Angie saying he walked out her door with the other two and Jake saying he was there. The defense is going to tear both of them a new one. Keep in mind that George's defense team does not care if they catch Jake or Angie in a lie and the DP is off the table as long as they get their client (George) a not guilty verdict. If it comes back not guilty doesn't matter to them what sentence Jake and Angie gets since they are some other attorneys' problem. Plus they both confessed to the crime. The ballistics are also a non starter for me if I am sitting on George's jury.

I was hoping they would get a good clear picture of George in the vehicle with the other 2. But from what I saw the jury and I would be hard pressed to say what kind of vehicle was captured on those cameras since virtually all you can see is the headlights and the back of the vehicle. If Chris had GPS in his truck it would tell where that truck went that night, to Kenny's, to Dana's, to Frankie's and what time but it is not going to tell who was driving it and unless they have George's DNA or some kind of forensics placing him in the truck, that is also a non starter for me.

The fact that he went with Jake and Angie to buy the truck isn't even evidence for me. I have went with my son, GS's, sister, brother and even friends when they were going to buy a vehicle. So I cannot even consider that as evidence unless George told the cousin they bought it from "Hey we want to buy this truck so we can use it to murder 8 people." Then there would be a witness that George bought the truck for that. And where is the proof he modified it? How can they prove that he did that and not Jake? Even if they could prove he did alter the truck how can they prove he did it to kill 8 people?

They claim he bought stuff to make a silencer, a mask, and some other things. But then they say the silencers were made out of car parts. That's a non starter for me also if I am on that jury because I have bought both an oil filter and a fuel filter at various times in my life for my own and family autos. I am betting there are many on that jury that has too. Probably bought many masks also for various reasons.

As far as digital evidence e.g. wiretapping, they could not have any evidence of George in on the planning since that would have been before the murders. Don't have any during, since all 4 W's cell phones were at home. They may have some of George running his mouth a couple years (Remember folks those bugs were not installed in vehicles until AFTER they returned from AK at the Canadian border.) Jake says they all knew they were in the vehicles. So I am not holding out much hope on that either.

As far as the ex wife's testimony. She is an EX-WIFE who lost custody of her son and is trying to get her son back. How much faith do we put in what she says knowing that? Or that there could be a history of a bitter divorce between them. Keep in mind, even in jail George's made a request that his ex wife get a mental examine before she was given custody of their son. That would weigh on me if I were on the jury. Ex-wives and Ex-husbands are notoriously hostile to each other.

Then you have the other ex-wife EW, or better known as Jakes. Jake admitted George did not like her and pressured him to get a divorce from her. Jake stated he did not want to divorce her. How much of that weighed in what Jake said about George in his proffer? He may be totally P'Oed at his brother for that. EW might be also. I am looking forward to hearing both ex's testify.

Right now I don't even think they have enough to convict Billy. According to the way Jake laid out the events of that night, saying Chris Sr and Gary were ambushed and the others were all asleep in their beds, it's possible one person could have killed all 8. Jake could have killed all 8 after stealing Billy's phone and leaving it and George and Billy home in bed asleep with the kids with Angie backing him up. Jake are the only 2 who have admitted to anything. I think that is only because they had the laptop of Angies with Hannah's FB screenshot on it and the custody documents. That implicated both Angie and Jake. FIVE YEARS passed before they could get Jake to confess. All 4 sat in jail for that entire time. Angie followed suit and cut a deal.

George and Billy have sat in jail almost 6 years and have never moved off their not guilty plea. A friend of mine asked me "well if you did not do something would you plead guilty to it or would you wait as long as it takes to have your day in court to prove your innocence?" It really did make me think about why George would sit in jail 6 years and not plead to something, even if it was accessory after the fact.

For my part I think Billy was very abusive to Angie. In discovery, prior acts, it says Billy stuck a gun to Angie's head. You don't get to that level of domestic violence without there being a lot of slaps, hits, kicks, ect over a number of years. In other words as far as domestic violence goes, it escalates, a man just doesn't stick a gun to his wife's head right off the bat in the first incident. That's not how DV works. So I can see Angie and her SON trying to burn Billy for all those years of abuse.

I am going to be waiting eagerly for the prosecution to present some real evidence against George alone instead of lumping him in with the W4"s and trying to get a jury to convict him with a guilty by association. Right now all the real evidence I have seen has been evidence against Angie (laptop and forgery) and Jake who led them to the weapons and burn pile.

Truthfully all I can see right now is MAYBE obstruction of justice charge. I can't even see an accessory after the fact since Jake admitted he went alone to dispose of the weapons, Jake admitted he burned clothes and shoes used and other evidence. No proof from the prosecution George was anywhere around.

JMO

They have to lay out the evidence they did already in order to explain the crimes and what happened. I wouldn't expect any evidence yet of anyone doing this unless there was DNA, which there isn't. That is important too. No DNA of anyone else either. No someone else did it defense based on a random unknown dna hit. Whoever did it was in gloves and made sure not to leave evidence.

We haven't even gotten to the analysis of the guns recovered, what was said in interviews that didn't line up, what was found on the W's phones, what else was discovered in the search warrants, what was uncovered in the recorded conversations. Remember they arrested them before Jake and Angela started talking.

They way they have been presenting this is in order, a very good detailed order and even some witnesses will be called back as they unfold the story in order. They haven't even gotten to the interviews, the tips received, how they homed in on the Wagners, etc.

Also they were arrested in Nov 2018 so not quite 4 years they have been in jail. Jake took a deal in April 2021. We don't know when the prosecution even offered a deal or if he asked for one at some point. There is only a deal if the prosecution is willing to offer one so maybe it wasn't even an option early on.

Also, I can't discredit the testimony of George's ex wife or anyone in this story that has interacted with this family. This is not some big conspiracy against one family. There is good reason she didn't have custody of her son and it's because she left that home fearing for her life. She hid till dark and drove a bike to the store to call for help. She knows how this family operated while her and George were married. She can speak about her personal interactions and experiences. Did they vote on things? There is a pattern here and it is evidence. Jake's wife that is now an ex. Again, she saw first hand how they spoke, if they did family votes, did they control social media for the wives? You might think it's just he said she said, but testimony about personal experiences is evidence.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

I've been thinking about this. So Hannah Mae had a baby just a few days before the murders. She would have been in the hospital and it makes sense that Jake would have Sophia while she was in the hospital having the baby. What also makes sense is she wanted Sophia to see her sister. That is a super exciting part of having a sibling for your older child is when they get to meet. So I could see Sophia coming back to Hannah's after she was home from the hospital. I bet Jake did have her a week before, then Hannah had the baby and came home and Sophia came back to Hannah's, but Jake picked her up because he knew what was about to happen. Then I could see Angela telling Jake just say you had her the entire time. He slips up and forgets and then tries to correct it.

There are photos of Hannah in the hospital right after the baby was born and SW was sitting on her hospital bed holding KR. There is a hand in the photo that is helping SW hold the baby. I cannot remember if we determined it was Jake's hand because of the wedding ring tattoo or not. Anyone else on here remember? @Betty P , @Dudly , @rsd1200, @Ann99 or any others?

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Jmo I agree from Dana’s 13 min but from 772 to left fork not as long. I do think the prosecutor needs to clean that up. Especially if any juror from that area. The detective stated he could not say absolutely those were the same vehicles. Jmo

The detective stated he could not say absolutely those were the same vehicles.

BBM

Again. This.

JMO

 

[RAISINISBACK]

The testimony/videos/timeline was confusing to me also so I'm not going to try and figure out the W's activities at this time and wait for more testimony (esp. Jake's) to explain the timeline. I don't know if the jury will even consider it since one can't make out the color/make/model of the vehicles. JMO

I don't know if the jury will even consider it since one can't make out the color/make/model of the vehicles.

BBM

And this. Please AC give us some evidence!!!!!!!

JMO

 

[RAISINISBACK]

I'm back to being a bit behind, but on Day 12, the fella who testified as to ballistics, testified that all
the casing evidence that was found at CR1's and KRs, in addition to any removed from the bodies of CR1, GR, and Kr, came from the same 40 caliber firearm and iirc, it's been stated it was likely a Glock. ~ A 40 caliber Glock semi-auto, will require a very firm grip and stance. I'm thinking that's a G3 firearm.

The .22 calibers, from a Walther Colt 1911 semi-auto, were all found at HHG/FR's and DR's homes. Both homes had multiple victims, apparently neither infant had suffered hearing damage, and FR's toddler did not awaken. The Walther Colt 1911 will accept a suppressor. ~ JW's Firearm


The 30 caliber SKS 7.62 x 39 semi-auto will have a recoil similar to an AR15 which is not bad at all. In watching Day 12, the ballistics specialist answered, in response to the defense's question about the number of casings submitted;

He responded that there were "no 7.62x39 cartridge cases submitted". The SKS would be throwing brass also. As I said, I'm a bit behind but he states more than once the he received no casings to compare to the SKS. Where did the SKS come from? Was G4 to hold in case needed but never had to use it? Do they have the actual firearms but are just using dummies for court?


I have read that JW and AW can opt out. Although it's their right, maybe that should have been part of their proffer, that they testify on video/audio record. I think out of everyone, it's important to see their faces and hear their intonation, but, at least the jury will, and that's who is most important.

Where did the SKS come from? Was G4 to hold in case needed but never had to use it? Do they have the actual firearms but are just using dummies for court?
BBM

That SKS came in Jake's proffer. He said George had it but froze so he took it from George and fired it. No cartridges or bullets found from the SKS and the firearms guy was asked specifically if the SKS would have been ejecting spent cartridges to the right while being fired. He said yes.

So another lie of Jake's? I have seen where he led then to guns but no mention of an SKS being found with the other guns.

JMO