OH - Pike Co - 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue - 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested #76

[justtrish]

A lot of time so far has been spent submitting evidence. And you have a lot of that. Eight murder victims, 4 crime scenes, and that is just for starters. You can't have testimony before evidence is submitted. There is a lot of housekeeping that has to be done. That is the law. It must be done this way. And much of the evidence won't even be tied together until the closing argument. This is typical of every trial I have ever watched. Down to the Defense pulling tricks out of their hat. Trials are boring! Someone's life is on the line, Trials are not for our entertainment. And they are not like what is presented on TV shows, at all. Moo.

Thank you for saying this. We have waited a long time for this. The families of these victims have waited a long time as well. This part might be boring, but I do see each day something sticking out. It really is showing how the investigation unfolded. It's showing the steps the investigators took and really painting the picture of how it wasn't simple, there wasn't DNA, there were no fingerprints, the murderers took drastic steps before, during, and after to cover their tracks.

I think what we are seeing the last 4 weeks worth show how much work was done. What road blocks they hit, what things that happened that made them say wait a minute. There are laws to protect people so they couldn't just take phones day 1. They had to ask for voluntary compliance with that.. Jake refused. Phones were changed, evidence destroyed, even attempts to throw them off.

While many just want to hear what they have on George, we can't rush past the groundwork that has been laid. Some of what was presented ruled things out, some rules things in for further investigation. They have to present their case, but also play a defensive game also and present things that the defense will try to distract the jury with.

I think the case for George is more complex because he was least involved, wasn't directly part of the motive, didn't get interviewed early on, didn't give up a phone for the evidence early on, etc. They can just show he was there and part of their lives for that year prior, he was also showing the same behaviors as his family, he purchased some items, was often working with dad and Jake, lived with mom and Jake, was seen running errands together weekly, etc.

If they didn't present all this, then the defense would be, George wasn't part of the family. What evidence do you have to show he was involved with his brother, dad, mom, etc.


They also don't have to show he did much, even just one act that assisted is considered part of the conspiracy. What roles each had do not matter, how much each participant did, doesn't matter, if he went that night or didn't, if he shot anyone or didn't, etc. None of that matters. They need to show he participated in any way, knew about it in any way, etc. We may not see some smoking gun because the fact is if he bought the parts for a silencer and helped buy and modify the truck and then didn't do anything else, he is just as guilty.

I am here for all of it and have zero expectation each day as evidence is presented. I know at the end when it's all presented as a whole, it will make sense.

 

[justtrish]

Is it a crime to know a murder has happened but you say nothing?

Yes. At the point you are asked about it and lie, you committed a crime. So if nothing else, then at the border when they were questioned, they all lied and if there is proof of that, then I believe that is guilt on the conspiracy. The wording of the conspiracy charge shows before, during, and after the crime various acts that were committed.

 

[Betty P]

In a conspiracy trial, evidence against one is evidence against all. The trial isn't over yet. imo.

Thanks. That's a very concise and accurate way of describing it.

Here's a link to today's session. I'm checking Scheiderer's testimony, as I missed some of that. LOL, the amount of evidence being revealed is quite a bit, hard keeping track of it all.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

I didn't hear it that way. I don't recall her recanting all of her testimony. Do you have a link?

Listen to her testimony again @Betty P . The defense got her to admit most of what she told wasn't the way it really happened. Like she moved in with them at aged 19 when it was really aged 11. That she hid in the dark and fled for her life on a bicycle but admitted George came after her and tried to get her to come back home. When she refused he drove on. The way she told it she feared for her life, but if George wanted to kill her why didn't he just do it out on that dark road instead of just driving on. She lied about them keeping her locked up and wouldn't let her see her family when in fact she told George it was impossible for her to be faithful and that her mother was taking her to meet "Jay". What's locked up about that? She recanted most of her testimony on cross.

No I don't have a link. It is in Tabitha's testimony. After the break it looked like she had been crying. I think that is because all that information the defense had could have only came from George and she never expected him to betray her that way so she was really hurt. I think she is still in love with him.

JMO

 

[Puzzles8]

It was just before 6 p.m. said Forney and Billy Wagner’s cell phone put him in the area of his mother’s Flying W Farm.

“And then we have a series of four incoming calls during 10:22 p.m. and ending at 10:55 p.m. from Chris Sr. that all got routed to voice mail,” Forney explained. “The last three indicated routed to voice mail.”

So I'm guessing CRsr was killed just after 10:55 pm on 4/21/2016.

JMO

 

[Betty P]

If they didn't present all this, then the defense would be, George wasn't part of the family. What evidence do you have to show he was involved with his brother, dad, mom, etc.

Great comment and good point about this. The state has to present and explain all the evidence gathered, otherwise the defense will do it in a damaging way.

The state must be doing a pretty good job at this because today, the defense got a little desperate to put on a show by trying to introduce the audio of Jake's interview BEFORE the state had entered it into evidence. That shows the defense has little to work with, little to attack. They had to leap ahead in a desperate attempt to make the state, and Jake's confession, look bad. They've done these kinds of things before during pre-trial. I recall a time when they accused the state of not providing them with evidence when the state had already done so. It's par for the course with these guys.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Where did you hear the testimony from what you just told me? That isn't just Tabby. I'm talking about Angie and Billy talking.

From the texts CC. From the cross examination of Tabitha. From the opening statement by AC. Go back to day one if you have to. It's all in there. I have listened though all this crap more than once.

JMO

 

[Betty P]

Listen to her testimony again @Betty P . The defense got her to admit most of what she told wasn't the way it really happened. Like she moved in with them at aged 19 when it was really aged 11. That she hid in the dark and fled for her life on a bicycle but admitted George came after her and tried to get her to come back home. When she refused he drove on. The way she told it she feared for her life, but if George wanted to kill her why didn't he just do it out on that dark road instead of just driving on. She lied about them keeping her locked up and wouldn't let her see her family when in fact she told George it was impossible for her to be faithful and that her mother was taking her to meet "Jay". What's locked up about that? She recanted most of her testimony on cross.

No I don't have a link. It is in Tabitha's testimony. After the break it looked like she had been crying. I think that is because all that information the defense had could have only came from George and she never expected him to betray her that way so she was really hurt. I think she is still in love with him.

JMO

I remember listening to it at the time and don't recall hearing it that way. I'd remember if she recounted everything. I do recall he really intimidated and badgered her. I'll try to listen to it later, but I'm very busy the rest of this week.

 

[Skully67]

Yes. At the point you are asked about it and lie, you committed a crime. So if nothing else, then at the border when they were questioned, they all lied and if there is proof of that, then I believe that is guilt on the conspiracy. The wording of the conspiracy charge shows before, during, and after the crime various acts that were committed.

What if you're not asked.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Where did you hear the testimony from what you just told me? That isn't just Tabby. I'm talking about Angie and Billy talking.

I'm talking about Angie and Billy talking.

Today's testimony from the BCI agent reading texts between Billy and Angie from Dec 2015 on.

JMO

 

[justtrish]

Listen to her testimony again @Betty P . The defense got her to admit most of what she told wasn't the way it really happened. Like she moved in with them at aged 19 when it was really aged 11. That she hid in the dark and fled for her life on a bicycle but admitted George came after her and tried to get her to come back home. When she refused he drove on. The way she told it she feared for her life, but if George wanted to kill her why didn't he just do it out on that dark road instead of just driving on. She lied about them keeping her locked up and wouldn't let her see her family when in fact she told George it was impossible for her to be faithful and that her mother was taking her to meet "Jay". What's locked up about that? She recanted most of her testimony on cross.

No I don't have a link. It is in Tabitha's testimony. After the break it looked like she had been crying. I think that is because all that information the defense had could have only came from George and she never expected him to betray her that way so she was really hurt. I think she is still in love with him.

JMO

When you really think about this though we are talking about an 11 year old staying with a boy many years older and sleeping in his bed. This is abuse, not her "living with George" and I don't see it as a lie to be questioned and talk about when you moved in at the point you were actually dating this person and then married to him. She wasn't asked about anything at 11 so when the defense is basically attacking an abuse victim about living with her "boyfriend" at 11, I find it disgusting. I don't consider that her recanting or lying. The time she left fearing for her life, she was running from her mother in law that threatened to get a gun. I wouldn't think I'd want to go home with my husband that time either. It's my opinion that she could not tell every possible thing that happened on direct and when the defense gets it's turn it's looking for what wasn't said to try to "catch her lying" and make her look bad to discredit her testimony. That does not make her testimony false and again an 11 year old living with her boyfriend is NOT a choice. She was abused at home and the situation she walked into a the Wagner's was abuse again. She was truthful on the stand, admitted she loved George, she wanted to move out of that house and live with George. This testimony wasn't to show how abusive George is, but to show the hold that Angela had on her sons and their lives. She even admitted she was conflicted still about it all. She didn't bash George and I felt said some good things about him as well. We can all feel how we feel about this testimony, but she is a victim of the Wagner's and given what happened to Jake's ex girlfriend and her entire family (regardless of which Wagner's did each thing charged) suggests to me that her fear and running for her life was likely for good reason. She is lucky to be alive to tell her story on the stand.

 

[Puzzles8]

Random thoughts/questions.
WHO is BW calling from jail? He’s in jail for murder and is on the phone more than my teenager. Talking to who and about what?
Did he even like his kids? IMO I think was he jealous of them because they got more of Angela’s attention.
When are going to get to the point? I understand foundation but for the love all that’s holy this trial is loosing me and I get watch it intermittently. If I was stuck in a chair I’d be asleep some days. Put George at the scene or directly involved or it’s over. Where were the conversations between Jake and George, Angela and George, Billy and George? I don’t need to hear about Angela and Jake yapping over piercing ears, it’s doesn’t even sound like he was that mad. I certainly hope this picks up and soon.

Who Billy was calling from jail is a VERY good and probably very telling question.. IMO, here are several well known drug dealers in the area he was calling.

All JMO, MOO and etc.

ETA - names of drug dealers are in Discovery.

 

[Puzzles8]

Lol guess they never drove to AK via MT. No cell phone service unless you are near a city. Hubby and i drove 1200 miles through BC and Yukon with no cell service. We never even saw an electric line or telephone line on the side of the road, let alone a cell tower. We did see an old man sitting on the side of a road on a bench seat out of a vehicle holding a sign saying "get your directions here." lol Nothing but trees, moose, wild horses and buffalo up there for 1200 miles.

JMO

What year did you drive from BC to AK? Cell phone service has dramatically improved over the years.

JMO

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Jmo I believe Tabitha explained why her family not allowed around and why B not allowed around her family. She explained several things that she had said that sounded different when the back story was shared. And the thing about taking 3 hours or more for Xanax to work on a baby not as believable on cross. She really didn’t have much against George other than she couldn’t stand his mother. Now put the round table discussion with Billy’s text and I come to conclusion that Billy could care less what those boys thoughts were so I personally find the round table discussion may have be exaggerated some. Also Tabby stated Billy was rarely around at Peterson.

All very good points. Glad you are taking over some of the explaining. My arms are getting tired. I listened to AC's opening statement 4 times. I have went back to day one and binged watched 3 times now. Getting ready to listen to todays testimony again.

JMO

 

[justtrish]

Who Billy was calling from jail is a VERY good and probably very telling question.. IMO, here are several well known drug dealers in the area he was calling.

All JMO, MOO and etc.

I bet he ain't calling any of those well known drug dealers now! LOL I like to imagine him squirming a bit.. well since he isn't allowed to access media he may not even know his little interview was played for all to hear.

 

[justtrish]

What if you're not asked.

I guess it's possible they were not asked, but being that they were stopped and searched, electronics taken, all interviewed separately, I was under the impression it was more than just a who do you think did it interview at this point. Lying about any of the questions they asked related to the crimes would be conspiracy also if it was an attempt to hide the truth.

 

[Puzzles8]

When you really think about this though we are talking about an 11 year old staying with a boy many years older and sleeping in his bed. This is abuse, not her "living with George" and I don't see it as a lie to be questioned and talk about when you moved in at the point you were actually dating this person and then married to him. She wasn't asked about anything at 11 so when the defense is basically attacking an abuse victim about living with her "boyfriend" at 11, I find it disgusting. I don't consider that her recanting or lying. The time she left fearing for her life, she was running from her mother in law that threatened to get a gun. I wouldn't think I'd want to go home with my husband that time either. It's my opinion that she could not tell every possible thing that happened on direct and when the defense gets it's turn it's looking for what wasn't said to try to "catch her lying" and make her look bad to discredit her testimony. That does not make her testimony false and again an 11 year old living with her boyfriend is NOT a choice. She was abused at home and the situation she walked into a the Wagner's was abuse again. She was truthful on the stand, admitted she loved George, she wanted to move out of that house and live with George. This testimony wasn't to show how abusive George is, but to show the hold that Angela had on her sons and their lives. She even admitted she was conflicted still about it all. She didn't bash George and I felt said some good things about him as well. We can all feel how we feel about this testimony, but she is a victim of the Wagner's and given what happened to Jake's ex girlfriend and her entire family (regardless of which Wagner's did each thing charged) suggests to me that her fear and running for her life was likely for good reason. She is lucky to be alive to tell her story on the stand.

Just makes you ask, where were their parents? What were they thinking, letting an 11 yo sleep with a 13 yo?

JMO

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Really? Jake has to testify. Did Canepa change the direction of her case?

Jake testifying is a mandatory part of his plea. Obviously I missed too much important testimony today.

AC said "If he testifies." It may be that she sees she just doesn't have the evidence against George other than jake and Angie. And Angie cannot put him at the murder scenes. AC should have waited until she had more evidence against JUST George before charging and arresting him. But she got stuck on that "enmeshed family" theory and is now being made to look like an idiot in a kangaroo court trying to send a man to prison for life on the word of a couple of liars and no evidence. She had one good point in 21 days of trial. George backdated the custody documents. That does not mean he committed murder of 8 people. I don't think it's even illegal unless he tried to use it in family court for custody.

In my opinion, BCI should have charged Jake, Angie and Rita first. They had direct evidence on those three. Those three would have brought George and Billy down. But AC jumped the gun on George and lost her chance to convict him.

It's costing Ohio a bunch of money they don't have to drag out a trial for which they have not introduced a shred of evidence that George was even in Ohio that night. AC is just not getting the job done. She needs to cut her losses and move on to Billy, which i think they do have evidence on, since he is the one who told his cousin he wanted to buy the truck and he is the one who took it before sunrise and gave it to his niece ect. At least they can show Billy involved which they have failed to do with George yet.

JMO

 

[RAISINISBACK]

With all these caveats it's like the prosecution's hands are being tied to use a man's own words against him...because he has the right to remain silent? Did they Mirandize the 4 W's before their interviews? Would they of had to before they were interviewed because they were "detained" (I would call it "arresting" their free movement myself but know not the legal distinction between those two words in relation to undeclared POI's)?

they did read all 4 their miranda rights before questioning them.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

That’s exactly what it sounds like, and I hate to admit this but I have been hesitant to say AW was the catalyst for this entire thing but after hearing the conversations I now believe it. IMO BW knew the only way he was getting her was if he took the kids and grandkids with them. I want to see more of Jake’s convos because so far he didn’t hate the baby momma, he just didn’t agree with her parenting but I don’t think he would have gotten to mass murder on his own. I don’t think he was the mastermind or George either.

I dunno. Hanna May was shot twice in the head, her mother shot 4 times in the head, and her teenage brother4 times also. Hannah Gilley was shot 5 times in the face and head. That sound pretty hateful to me. He wiped out her whole family line except for the babies, which he hoped to take for himself and his mother. That said, from what I've ready about murders done as part of a group, it's pretty common that two people together or several in a group are often willing to do with others that they wouldn't do alone.