OH Pike County: 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested#39

[Trudie]

Older trailers have very little insulation. They are hot when it is hot weather and cold when it is cold weather.

Then it stands to reason in the spring it might be normal to have windows open. IMO

 

[Dudly]

I mean even more hours than the ME thinks, it’s often difficult for them to give an accurate time of death.

They take the body temperature in the liver, I believe. They use that and ambient temperature to determine time of death.
Determining Time of Death

 

[Trudie]

They take the body temperature in the liver, I believe. They use that and ambient temperature to determine time of death.
Determining Time of Death

But it’s not always accurate is my understanding.

 

[Dudly]

But it’s not always accurate is my understanding.

How accurate are you talking? It depends on how long after death they are determining time of death.

 

[Caylee Advocate]

Good nite to all, may you have a safe and Merry Christmas. If traveling, be extra safe. See everyone sometime next week. Be kind to one another.

 

[MittenScarpetta]

They take the body temperature in the liver, I believe. They use that and ambient temperature to determine time of death.
Determining Time of Death

It will be very interesting to learn (when the time comes) if there was a window left open in either or both Dana’s room and/or Hanna May’s room. I’ve personally thought the windows were open for either one or both of the following reasons : to confuse time of death by making the body cool faster (since it was in the low 50’s that morning) OR the windows were the exits for the accused Wagner’s.

 

[MittenScarpetta]

How accurate are you talking? It depends on how long after death they are determining time of death.

I’ve personally been through this with a close family member. On scene, we were told the family member had likely been deceased about 6 hours when found. Two months later when the coroner contacted us with the final autopsy results, he determined my family member had been dead closer to 12 hours when discovered. The coroner based that off of rigor, decomp, and body temp. The medical examiner on scene based his findings off of rigor and the body temp.

 

[rsd1200]

We discussed TOD a few threads back, and I tucked this back in my bookmarks. Rectal temps are fairly accurate if liver temps cannot be immediately available but Rigor is also fairly accurate.

Rigor Mortis also acts as a good measuring stick for estimating the time of death. This natural process which occurs in all of us when we die and is the natural contracting and relaxation of the body's muscles caused by changes in the body's chemical balances.

Rigor normally occurs in the smaller muscles such as those in the face and neck and will work its way down through the body as the muscles become larger. The process normally begins roughly two hours after death and can last for anything from twenty to thirty hours.

Categorising Time of Death
Time of death is categorised in three ways:

• Physiological time of death: The point at which the deceased's body - including vital organs - ceased to function.
• Estimated time of death: A best guess based on available information.
• Legal time of death: The time at which the body was discovered or physically pronounced dead by another individual. This is the time that is shown - by law - on a death certificate.

What if Rigor had started in a more advanced stage in CR1, as in further down than the face and neck. The others may have died within two hours of the family finding them (except for KR, of course).

Estimating The Time of Death

 

[Puzzles8]

They take the body temperature in the liver, I believe. They use that and ambient temperature to determine time of death.
Determining Time of Death

Thank you for that link!

 

[Puzzles8]

I’ve personally been through this with a close family member. On scene, we were told the family member had likely been deceased about 6 hours when found. Two months later when the coroner contacted us with the final autopsy results, he determined my family member had been dead closer to 12 hours when discovered. The coroner based that off of rigor, decomp, and body temp. The medical examiner on scene based his findings off of rigor and the body temp.

I'm sorry.

 

[MittenScarpetta]

We discussed TOD a few threads back, and I tucked this back in my bookmarks. Rectal temps are fairly accurate if liver temps cannot be immediately available but Rigor is also fairly accurate.





What if Rigor had started in a more advanced stage in CR1, as in further down than the face and neck. The others may have died within two hours of the family finding them (except for KR, of course).

Estimating The Time of Death

That’s where I get so confused about the preliminary autopsy results. Considering KR was found much later, yet CR1 showed more advanced decomposition, wouldn’t that mean that KR had to be killed around the same time as the other 6? But how in the world was CR1 killed first when he was in a house with GR? Their decomp should have been similar IF they were killed together. Ugh. It makes my head spin.

 

[Gracie55]

It will be very interesting to learn (when the time comes) if there was a window left open in either or both Dana’s room and/or Hanna May’s room. I’ve personally thought the windows were open for either one or both of the following reasons : to confuse time of death by making the body cool faster (since it was in the low 50’s that morning) OR the windows were the exits for the accused Wagner’s.

My dogs can open the windows to get out if they're agitated, like if somebody comes when we're gone.

 

[ohioexpat63]

I've often wondered how they avoided waking/being identified by the 3 yr old in FR & HHG's home. What are your thoughts?

Pure speculation: Either he slept thru the entire ordeal or he has no memory of it. It would be a fairly traumatic event (PTSD for some) for adults to find so much carnage, can you imagine a 3 yr old?

He certainly has memory of finding his father and brother in bed, covered in blood. JMO

 

[IQuestion]

On the topic of appearance, JW is lanky, not emaciated. IMO His trophy wall tells me he is capable of waiting patiently and pulling a trigger. (Just guessing from seeing all the deer heads hanging on the walls of his residence.) Per Judge's inquiries, "Are you satisfied with the
work they are doing?" etc & "Any other problems that you need to bring to the court's attention?" etc. & "If you want to, you can tell, whisper in your attorney's ear and they can tell me." (What other problems? Lumpy mattress? Loud music? Poor video selection? Talkative cell mate? I was caught off guard with the "folksiness" of his queries. )
Is it just me, or does the judge seem over accommodating to this defendant? Were the questions for the benefit of a particular "home viewer"? I guess I'll have to wait and see if he asks the other defendants the same questions.

 

[Puzzles8]

We discussed TOD a few threads back, and I tucked this back in my bookmarks. Rectal temps are fairly accurate if liver temps cannot be immediately available but Rigor is also fairly accurate.





What if Rigor had started in a more advanced stage in CR1, as in further down than the face and neck. The others may have died within two hours of the family finding them (except for KR, of course).

Estimating The Time of Death

Thank you for link!

 

[Sillybilly]

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Thanks.

 

[Charliegizmo49]

Do you think there’s a remote chance one victim was killed much earlier than the remaining 7?

Yes considering, according to autopsy reports and the ME. CRsr’s body was noticeably more decomposed than the others.

 

[Myland]

I just read the court listing of evidence turned over so far to defense. Looks like they interviewed jw one time in May 2016, and interviewed other family members starting in September 2016. But Bw wasn’t interviewed until May 2017.

 

[MittenScarpetta]

I just read the court listing of evidence turned over so far to defense. Looks like they interviewed jw one time in May 2016, and interviewed other family members starting in September 2016. But Bw wasn’t interviewed until May 2017.

The news article stated JW gave five interviews from May 16th ish, 2016 to May 23, 2017. Interesting about September 2016 being when other family members were interviewed because that’s when AW posted the Excursion for sale online Angela Wagner The Peterson Road house was first listed in August 2016. It’s interesting to see these dates fall into place for a timeline of them moving to Alaska.

 

[Charliegizmo49]

Hmm, it fits a couple of places but one would hold possibly 20 people max, and the other maybe 25-30 if thin. Was it in Waverly, or Piketon? I used to do the restaurant health inspections locally, so yes; I pick my battles when eating out.

Speaking of dirty, 49 years ago I worked in Lansing Mi in a huge lab and morgue. That’s where I learned about death. He best take out Chinese was at this literal hole in the wall with dead flies on the windowsills. The staff and the head administrator slammed the place with hundreds of orders a week. The. Governor and staff also were patrons so no State inspection ever shut them down. The place never should have been allowed to stay open, and it’s run by the owners grandkids today. Much cleaner and with a health inspection certificate beside the front wall. Just a funny side story, because it seated about 20, and 90% of it was kitchen. No one ever discussed the kitchen.

The delivery van was an old plumbers truck. Way ahead of their time, each office order was packed into those old metal thermos coolers to keep it hot and literally delivered to your desk. think that’s where pizza places got the idea to keep food hot today until it was delivered. Thanks for reminding me of the best Chinese I ever have eaten.