OH Pike County: 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested#45

[Ann99]

I hope that “Plate” found in the vest was handled with evidence gloves and checked for prints, etc.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Why did you then__ (and now?)__ think he's the weak link? It makes me wonder with the solitary confinement request and The Bible being mentioned. Also his demeanor in court seems more scared/nervous/ angry then the others.... 2 Cents....

We have all seen it. The tough guy with something to prove to daddy. In this case daddy is a big boy who looks and probably talks tough. I think George is closer to Billy and Jake is closer to Angie. So I think George did all the tall talking about revenge to get daddy's approval.

But George had the least stake in all this. He had his kid. Full custody. He had the most to lose. I don't think George or Billy gave a flying flip whether Jake got custody of SW or not. This was all Jake's show with Angie right behind him and maybe even Fred. But I do think Chris knew something on Fred and the W4 that might endanger Georges custody of his son so he went along to stay out of jail. He will roll the first for the same reason. Because he is a scared little kid inside a man's body who no longer has to impress daddy with how tough he is.

Also because he desperately wants his son. He obviously does not think the mother of his son is capable to raise him since he asked for a mental eval on her while he was in jail. That says to me that George would rather have his son be with anyone besides his ex wife even if it is foster care. Says volumes.

I think Billy went along because he wanted to keep himself and his mother out of jail. Note I said himself and his mother. I have pointed out the deep resemblance between Fred and Angie, enough that Angie looks more like Fred's daughter than Robin does. I don't think Billy gave a rat's rear whether Angie went to jail or not or whether Jake had custody of SW. For Billy it was all about his mother. I do not think he will roll for that reason.

I think Angie and Jake are actually the strongest of the bunch emotionally so they will not roll. If you do not think they are, think about their demeanor in court. Angie and Jake are all smiles. Not a care in the world. They are like ice coated steel.

George is scared to death and Billy is sullen and trying still to look tough for mama.

JMO

 

[RAISINISBACK]

What might damage one?

A bullet.

 

[Betty P]

Or....Fred told Owen about the date on the plate because she knew the original plate had been switched for one made after the murders.

Do not forget the Wags had plenty of time between the murders and the raid that confiscated the vests to switch plates or dispose of the originals or just plain buy a couple of vests to throw off LE suspicions of them by acting like they were scared to death Billy would be next. But let's ask ourselves why Billy and not Jake who was "considered married" to Hanna and "considered part of the family". Wouldn't Jake be the bigger target?

I am going to head out into left field here and throw out a theory.

It has been "rumored" that Billy and Angie separated right after the murders. If that rumor is true then it is possible that Billy moved in with his mother. Fred said she bought the vests for Billy and not for herself and Robin because Robin would not wear one and she (Fred) did not care if they killed her or not. So to answer the question of why Billy and not Jake is it possible that the ones she feared would kill Billy was his own family, Jake, George and Angie?

Just a little something to think about on a dreary day like today.

JMO

Well, anything seems possible with that family. Wonder why Billy might have ended up the outlier?

Yes Owen has done that in the past ...
My opinion:
Owen doesn’t seem to understand the repercussions now that his antics are being observed outside of his safe space of Pike County, Southern Ohio.
I can not wait to hear what Prosecutor Angela C (not Junk, as I am surprised he remains on this case) and the Judge have to say in open Court about these activities.

Regarding the discussions about the vests. Interesting to see how this plays out. I believe Prosecution is on solid ground. Unless I’m misunderstanding the course of events. My opinion:
Prosecution was patiently waiting for FW and Attorney to provide proof of her claim, to provide receipts FW said she had. FW and Owen did not do so.
I am guessing that “chain of custody” and concern that there be no open window for “evidence tampering” claim was a factor in what LE did or did not do. Meaning - take the vests apart.
I see all that is unfolding regarding FW and her “Attoreny”
as negative for the Wagners.
They are giving more and more evidence of their natural ability to attempt to deceive. True nature is being revealed.
(Think Scorpion.)
Finally, Wagners are out of their league and so is Owen.
The State of Ohio and all resources available, including legal minds with extensive experience, will prevail over Wagners and Owen.
Indictment will stand.

Agree. FW and Owen are out of their league. JMO, that's why it's so important to have national media coverage of hearings and trials. Even better to have the trials covered daily or weekly by one of the Court TV-type shows. Attorneys like Owen have been able to engage in tricks, judges have been able to do some interesting maneuvers because of a judicial ecosystem that allows them to thrive. Some of these judges and attorneys are experts at sweeping things under the rug, stumbling into mistrials and mysterious plea deals, etc.

Sex trafficking: Trapped and trafficked, Portsmouth's dark secret

Having national media coverage will be critical, JMO, to ensuring all the parties follow the rules. Even then, there's no guarantee.

 

[Betty P]

I think I got it posted in the Media thread. You might want to check if I did it right...

Thanks, Dudly. Puzzles found the one I was looking for - it was the response from AC to FW's Motion to Dismiss.

 

[Dudly]

Well, anything seems possible with that family. Wonder why Billy might have ended up the outlier?


Agree. FW and Owen are out of their league. JMO, that's why it's so important to have national media coverage of hearings and trials. Even better to have the trials covered daily or weekly by one of the Court TV-type shows. Attorneys like Owen have been able to engage in tricks, judges have been able to do some interesting maneuvers because of a judicial ecosystem that allows them to thrive. Some of these judges and attorneys are experts at sweeping things under the rug, stumbling into mistrials and mysterious plea deals, etc.

Sex trafficking: Trapped and trafficked, Portsmouth's dark secret

Having national media coverage will be critical, JMO, to ensuring all the parties follow the rules. Even then, there's no guarantee.

I agree, a judge on national TV is not going to want to look bad. I trust AC but not Junk or judge yet at this point. What he does with FW will determine how a trial would go under him. If they move the four murder trials, it needs to be far away from that whole area in my opinion.

 

[Dudly]

We have all seen it. The tough guy with something to prove to daddy. In this case daddy is a big boy who looks and probably talks tough. I think George is closer to Billy and Jake is closer to Angie. So I think George did all the tall talking about revenge to get daddy's approval.

But George had the least stake in all this. He had his kid. Full custody. He had the most to lose. I don't think George or Billy gave a flying flip whether Jake got custody of SW or not. This was all Jake's show with Angie right behind him and maybe even Fred. But I do think Chris knew something on Fred and the W4 that might endanger Georges custody of his son so he went along to stay out of jail. He will roll the first for the same reason. Because he is a scared little kid inside a man's body who no longer has to impress daddy with how tough he is.

Also because he desperately wants his son. He obviously does not think the mother of his son is capable to raise him since he asked for a mental eval on her while he was in jail. That says to me that George would rather have his son be with anyone besides his ex wife even if it is foster care. Says volumes.

I think Billy went along because he wanted to keep himself and his mother out of jail. Note I said himself and his mother. I have pointed out the deep resemblance between Fred and Angie, enough that Angie looks more like Fred's daughter than Robin does. I don't think Billy gave a rat's rear whether Angie went to jail or not or whether Jake had custody of SW. For Billy it was all about his mother. I do not think he will roll for that reason.

I think Angie and Jake are actually the strongest of the bunch emotionally so they will not roll. If you do not think they are, think about their demeanor in court. Angie and Jake are all smiles. Not a care in the world. They are like ice coated steel.

George is scared to death and Billy is sullen and trying still to look tough for mama.

JMO

As I said before GWIV seems to be really mad about having to be dragged through court over all this. It doesn't appear that he personally had anything to gain by being involved. It think he felt obligated or pressured. I'm not sure if he realized that they could be caught and he'd lose his son and maybe his life. He may have been convinced by someone that they could not be caught. He definitely does not have the attitude in court that his mother or brother has...

 

[rsd1200]

I knew I was forgetting something on my "to do" list. I need some new body armor.

Seriously, why does anyone besides people who work in LE or security work need body armor? If it's in good condition, it appears to be fairly expensive. Maybe if you live in one of those popular areas during deer season, where all the city folks come out to shoot up each other, your barn and your livestock?

I'd bet the deer are as thick as rats there, like they are here. So, hunting would be a possibility. Might want to get them for the horses and cows too (or just spray paint them bright orange during deer season).

People in the equine industry do use them at times. wearing one would lessen the impact of being hit by flying hooves. Being kicked, in the sternum area, is dangerous. Being bitten can be dangerous. Been there, wore those t-shirts, dangerous and it hurts.

There are folks who wear them, just because they can. Guy I knew bought one from somewhere. Looked like it came over on the ark. I doubt it would have done him a bit of good, except for giving him a false sense of security, but, not my business.

FW said why and when they bought those, but, we'll see what the evidence says when she goes to court.

 

[Puzzles8]

Or....Fred told Owen about the date on the plate because she knew the original plate had been switched for one made after the murders.

Do not forget the Wags had plenty of time between the murders and the raid that confiscated the vests to switch plates or dispose of the originals or just plain buy a couple of vests to throw off LE suspicions of them by acting like they were scared to death Billy would be next. But let's ask ourselves why Billy and not Jake who was "considered married" to Hanna and "considered part of the family". Wouldn't Jake be the bigger target?

I am going to head out into left field here and throw out a theory.

It has been "rumored" that Billy and Angie separated right after the murders. If that rumor is true then it is possible that Billy moved in with his mother. Fred said she bought the vests for Billy and not for herself and Robin because Robin would not wear one and she (Fred) did not care if they killed her or not. So to answer the question of why Billy and not Jake is it possible that the ones she feared would kill Billy was his own family, Jake, George and Angie?

Just a little something to think about on a dreary day like today.

JMO

"Special Prosecutor Angie Canepa alleged a confidential informant told them of a meeting at Wagner's home with her family members where they had "conversations surrounding if one or more of them were arrested what the others were to do including taking revenge on those persons not arrested" and plans for escape. She also alleged they spoke of taking revenge on a special agent, Pike County Sheriff Charles Reader, and Attorney General Mike DeWine."

Revenge on those persons not arrested - as within the W4?
Makes you wonder if the "Revenge" meeting at FW's was not attended by everyone in the W4.

Rhoden family massacre: Prosecutor alleges Fredericka Wagner plotted revenge

 

[Dudly]

"Special Prosecutor Angie Canepa alleged a confidential informant told them of a meeting at Wagner's home with her family members where they had "conversations surrounding if one or more of them were arrested what the others were to do including taking revenge on those persons not arrested" and plans for escape. She also alleged they spoke of taking revenge on a special agent, Pike County Sheriff Charles Reader, and Attorney General Mike DeWine."

Revenge on those persons not arrested - as within the W4?
Makes you wonder if the "Revenge" meeting at FW's was not attended by everyone in the W4.

Rhoden family massacre: Prosecutor alleges Fredericka Wagner plotted revenge

BBM
I've wondered if that included W family members. Especially if a family member was not arrested because they ratted on the others.

 

[Jonas_Klein]

As I said before GWIV seems to be really mad about having to be dragged through court over all this. It doesn't appear that he personally had anything to gain by being involved. It think he felt obligated or pressured. I'm not sure if he realized that they could be caught and he'd lose his son and maybe his life. He may have been convinced by someone that they could not be caught. He definitely does not have the attitude in court that his mother or brother has...

I agree. GW4 looks angry. Maybe he's upset he got involved as you point out. But idk.

If the story of him doing some procedure against his ex-wife is true, as mentioned by OP, then he could be the angry type by nature.

Dewine used the words: "control of the children" if I recall properly. GW4 could be instigator more than we think. That would be consistent with him being outspoken with a retaliation plan against officials.

If he is the controlling type, he must be frustrated he does not control this situation.

Edit: i did it again. I mean GW4 , the son

 

[Caylee Advocate]

I agree. GW3 looks angry. Maybe he's upset he got involved as you point out. But idk.

If the story of him doing some procedure against his ex-wife is true, as mentioned by OP, then he could be the angry type by nature.

Dewine used the words: "control of the children" if I recall properly. GW3 could be instigator more than we think. That would be consistent with him being outspoken with a retaliation plan against officials.

If he is the controlling type, he must be frustrated he does not control this situation.

George *Billy* III, or George IV?

 

[Jonas_Klein]

George *Billy* III, or George IV?

Thanks. I mean GW4. I hope not to make it a habit.

I think could he could be a sociopath. It could be why he is sitting in front of a Judge looking angry. I'd like to hear an expert opinion on it.

 

[Cool Cats]

We have all seen it. The tough guy with something to prove to daddy. In this case daddy is a big boy who looks and probably talks tough. I think George is closer to Billy and Jake is closer to Angie. So I think George did all the tall talking about revenge to get daddy's approval.

But George had the least stake in all this. He had his kid. Full custody. He had the most to lose. I don't think George or Billy gave a flying flip whether Jake got custody of SW or not. This was all Jake's show with Angie right behind him and maybe even Fred. But I do think Chris knew something on Fred and the W4 that might endanger Georges custody of his son so he went along to stay out of jail. He will roll the first for the same reason. Because he is a scared little kid inside a man's body who no longer has to impress daddy with how tough he is.

Also because he desperately wants his son. He obviously does not think the mother of his son is capable to raise him since he asked for a mental eval on her while he was in jail. That says to me that George would rather have his son be with anyone besides his ex wife even if it is foster care. Says volumes.

I think Billy went along because he wanted to keep himself and his mother out of jail. Note I said himself and his mother. I have pointed out the deep resemblance between Fred and Angie, enough that Angie looks more like Fred's daughter than Robin does. I don't think Billy gave a rat's rear whether Angie went to jail or not or whether Jake had custody of SW. For Billy it was all about his mother. I do not think he will roll for that reason.

I think Angie and Jake are actually the strongest of the bunch emotionally so they will not roll. If you do not think they are, think about their demeanor in court. Angie and Jake are all smiles. Not a care in the world. They are like ice coated steel.

George is scared to death and Billy is sullen and trying still to look tough for mama.

JMO

Thanks for answering my question, I tend to wonder about the motives and psychology involved, like we had a discussion on here that helped me understand that the Wagner's are an enmeshed family. Text book definition of one in my opinion.

Thanks for letting me know that GW4 asked for his ex-wife's psyc/evaluation while he was in jail. This surprised me as I thought all this occurred before Nov.13 2018. Yes I agree that it speaks volumes that he would rather his son be in foster care than with his ex, or so it apperars.

In your other post to me you bring up another point that will now "drive me crazy" (thankx...LOL) That what if Fred switched the plates in the BPV 's? Those plates can and do come out and are designed to get replaced. But why go through the trouble of switching plates? I mean it would be easier to just hide/destroy/bury the vests.

Here are some behavioral red flags having to do with an enmeshed family. In reading this it helps me to understand why GW4 would go along with the fAMILY PLAN to kill---even though he had the least to gain.............
_______________________________________________________________
Families that are enmeshed often have a set of spoken, or unspoken, rules that govern the member’s behaviors even into adulthood. Do these sound familiar to you?

• Don’t talk to outsiders about what goes on in our family. That is our business and our business only.
• What Mom and Dad say/believe/think/feel about you is what is right, never mind that you are 45 years old and have been on your own for 27 years.
• It’s okay for you to be a little bit different from us in some ways, but there is a line that you can’t cross in this family and still be accepted (maybe you can’t be a Democrat, or a gay person, or marry outside of our race).
• The cost of being different is to be cut off. We cannot accept differences that challenge our rigid sense of who this family is.
• *******EVEN AS ADULTS, you will conform to the wishes of “the family” instead of make your own mind up about how, where, and with whom you wish to live your life.

 

[Merrygirl]

One would want to replace them with a newer model date if they expire because they can degrade overtime and not offer the needed protection. Or, say, if a person needed one that has a newer manufacturers date and had a specific date in mind.

So, theoretically speaking of course, one could use the bpv on a certain day, let’s say April, then put a new sticker on it or exchange the plates in May, theoretically...? And we also don’t know if there might have been a couple more bpv that may have been purchased at a different date? Just thinking aloud...

 

[Tiff23fr]

Thanks for answering my question, I tend to wonder about the motives and psychology involved, like we had a discussion on here that helped me understand that the Wagner's are an enmeshed family. Text book definition of one in my opinion.

Thanks for letting me know that GW4 asked for his ex-wife's psyc/evaluation while he was in jail. This surprised me as I thought all this occurred before Nov.13 2018. Yes I agree that it speaks volumes that he would rather his son be in foster care than with his ex, or so it apperars.

In your other post to me you bring up another point that will now "drive me crazy" (thankx...LOL) That what if Fred switched the plates in the BPV 's? Those plates can and do come out and are designed to get replaced. But why go through the trouble of switching plates? I mean it would be easier to just hide/destroy/bury the vests.

Here are some behavioral red flags having to do with an enmeshed family. In reading this it helps me to understand why GW4 would go along with the fAMILY PLAN to kill---even though he had the least to gain.............
_______________________________________________________________
Families that are enmeshed often have a set of spoken, or unspoken, rules that govern the member’s behaviors even into adulthood. Do these sound familiar to you?

• Don’t talk to outsiders about what goes on in our family. That is our business and our business only.
• What Mom and Dad say/believe/think/feel about you is what is right, never mind that you are 45 years old and have been on your own for 27 years.
• It’s okay for you to be a little bit different from us in some ways, but there is a line that you can’t cross in this family and still be accepted (maybe you can’t be a Democrat, or a gay person, or marry outside of our race).
• The cost of being different is to be cut off. We cannot accept differences that challenge our rigid sense of who this family is.
• *******EVEN AS ADULTS, you will conform to the wishes of “the family” instead of make your own mind up about how, where, and with whom you wish to live your life.

This is an interesting post. In order for children to convince their parents to participate in a massacre like this, or the parents to be able to convince ADULT children to participate, there would certainly be something off at a very deep level in family dynamics, values or beliefs.

It could be what is under the comment below. I still feel when he speaks of control of children he MAY also be speaking of G4 and Jake. My guess is HR and G4's ex began to see this and wanted nothing to do with being controlled. Note- BIZARRE!

“There certainly was obsession with custody, obsession with control of children," said DeWine, adding, “This is just the most bizarre story I’ve ever seen in being involved in law enforcement.”

 

[Cool Cats]

This is an interesting post. In order for children to convince their parents to participate in a massacre like this, or the parents to be able to convince ADULT children to participate, there would certainly be something off at a very deep level in family dynamics, values or beliefs.

It could be what is under the comment below. I still feel when he speaks of control of children he MAY also be speaking of G4 and Jake. My guess is HR and G4's ex began to see this and wanted nothing to do with being controlled. Note- BIZARRE!

“There certainly was obsession with custody, obsession with control of children," said DeWine, adding, “This is just the most bizarre story I’ve ever seen in being involved in law enforcement.”

I think the control of children is a blanket statement meaning that this is the type of family that when they have children, any children whether it's Jake/George as kids or now the grandkids, they want complete decision making power. An EX can visit, but has no decision making rights.

This started with Fred and Bob (GW2) isolating and controlling their children and then controlling them with money as adults. Then Billy and Angela do the same, isolating and controlling their children, and then also controlling them through money and property as adults (Peterson Rd. house was put in their name). Now you have 5 controlling adults all focused on 2 children.

These 5 controlling people: Fred, Billy, Angie, George4 and Jake are now wanting control...ie...total decision making power--- over the 2 children--- and it was dynamite waiting to go off.....AND IT WENT OFF.

Even if Fred did not know about the murder plan I believe that she egged Jake and the others on about Jake getting full custody and how this, as Jake puts it, "is in Sophie's best interest"........My 2 Cents........

 

[Merrygirl]

them

Thanks. I mean GW4. I hope not to make it a habit.

I think could he could be a sociopath. It could be why he is sitting in front of a Judge looking angry. I'd like to hear an expert opinion on it.

I don’t know if you could call me an expert but I am a nurse who deals with mental health issues. IMO he is not a sociopath. Sociopaths do not show remorse or empathy for others. The fact that he appears angry at pretrial & needing to read his Bible shows remorse. I think his love and concern for his son shows empathy. These are not the usual emotions for a sociopath IMO

 

[Cool Cats]

I don’t know if you could call me an expert but I am a nurse who deals with mental health issues. IMO he is not a sociopath. Sociopaths do not show remorse or empathy for others. The fact that he appears angry at pretrial & needing to read his Bible shows remorse. I think his love and concern for his son shows empathy. These are not the usual emotions for a sociopath IMO

The Bible statement is "suspect" at best. GW4's Death Penalty Attorney would have to know that it's the jail, not the court that decides on solitary confinement.

So why did he unnecessarily bring this up (reading the Bible in solitary confinement) in open court? In my opinion it was only to get the Bible statement out to the media to make GW4 look better to prospective jurors.

The attorney knew the media would heavily report on GW4 "wanting" to read the Bible in solitary.

Don't be fooled. The only remorse he has is that he got caught. Why the angry look? Well, GW4 was the most vocal about seeking revenge and he's angry that he can't do any of the revenge that was discussed.
I don't see him pulling a 180 now.

Loving his son? He wants full control of his son, he got full custody. Then he asked for his EX to get a psychological evaluation while HE HIMSELF was sitting in jail for 8 murders. Seriously?

.......Just My 2 Cents.....

 

[I'mNosyRosy]

I read through the discovery for AW. Does anyone know who Elizabeth Wagner may be? I've never heard of this person.