OH Pike County: 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested#47

[Tiff23fr]

I think that you are doing a great job but understand the mods decision.

I agree - thanks Cool Cats for all your info

 

[Merrygirl]

I think Jake loves SW more than anything else.

I think that love began the moment she was born.

And I do not think that love for her would end if he found out after he split from her mother when she was 3 years old that she was not his bio child. I think he would still love her more than anything and do anything he could to keep her in his life.

Ditto for Angie.

JMO

I agree!

 

[Merrygirl]

JMO but Dana was still in child bearing years and SW’s last name was Rhoden. Maybe she claimed SW as her child for insurance purposes only. Insurance companies don’t ask for proof.

Am I bad, Disregard this theory. I forgot SW’s last name.

 

[Fletcher73]

why was there only Kenny and Hanna R shot so few times, 1 Head shot should have killed anyone no more than 2 they try to fix the corpse to where there could be no open casket funeral

My understanding is the funerals were open casket (don't have the news article handy to link, so JMO).

RE: the heightened violence of so many gunshots to DR and HG was attributed (by a poster in this forum, early on) to anger and humiliation of the shooter: at HG for encouraging HMR's relationship with CG; at DR for being happy "that my baby's happy," that is, glad that HMR had moved on from JW. [I have additional opinions about the other damage to neck, chin, skull, described in DR's autopsy, but we'll have to wait for more Discovery to be released, or the trials.]
So many more gsw to CRsr speaks to anger & payback, so -jmo- it gives credence to the rumor that CRsr had beat the crap out of BW a few days before.

 

[Fletcher73]

Count #3 is for GW4. Maybe he didn’t think he would need his ex to sign (or someone forge) since he had custody?

For GW4, it occurred to me that the documents gave custody to AW in the event of his death, since he did have sole custody. Seems extraordinarily cruel to plan to continue to perpetrate that pain on GW4's ex-wife. JMO

 

[Merrygirl]

I would put money on it that no one ever flips on Fredricka Wagner.

IDK, I could see a scenario where AW might implicate her if AW & BW we’re going down, or especially if 5 of the 6 went down. AW may feel that all could have been avoided if granny paid for court custody so everything was documented.

 

[Merrygirl]

Married into a hardcore Southern Baptist family (though my husband broke out, my in laws practice) as a Catholic. It is.... Interesting (jmo)

It sure helped me to understand why in her GJ testimony Fred made the snide comment “well, in my eyes they were married...”(paraphrasing only).

 

[Fletcher73]

It is a PDF. I made a screen shot so now I have it in jpeg but don’t know if it is against TOS here.

Col Mustard, here you go; there's one of these filed for the Estate of both CRsr and CRjr. I looked for similar documents for babyKR, RR and BR, but realized custody of those children are with family members who are not incarcerated or under investigation.

 

[buttonbaby]

Col Mustard, here you go; there's one of these filed for the Estate of both CRsr and CRjr. I looked for similar documents for babyKR, RR and BR, but realized custody of those children are with family members who are not incarcerated or under investigation.

Yes, they are.

 

[rsd1200]

This was probably discussed previously and I missed the discussion, but I didn't realize the W's surveillance of the R's began around July 1, 2014, per their indictments.

SW was born in Nov 2013. Per JW's custody affidavit, he and HR were in an exclusive, romantic relationship that included living together until March 2015, when HR ended the exclusive part of their relationship as well as their cohabitation. HR completely ended their relationship in Sept. 2015.

I'm surprised the spying and collection of information on the R's started so early on, when HR was still apparently with JW.

BBM
I do not know if this is the case here, I'm just saying, if the surveillance started that early, and it was confined to JW and HMR, then I'd not be surprised. It's been noted that HMR was living between the two homes. While he was OTR, she probably stayed at her parent's home. It's possible he was checking in on her to make sure she was faithful, who she hung out with, etc... A lot of times the guiltiest dog barks the loudest.

 

[ChickaDee221]

IDK, I could see a scenario where AW might implicate her if AW & BW we’re going down, or especially if 5 of the 6 went down. AW may feel that all could have been avoided if granny paid for court custody so everything was documented.

Then who would pay for the lawyers? Not only that, but she would have to admit her own guilt therefore admitting the guilt of her family.
If I am understanding you correctly, it would be a "she made me do it" defense?

 

[ChickaDee221]

Highlighted by me.....

Displaying all 5 matches.

Party/Company

Case Number

WAGNER, FREDERICKA Plaintiff 11/29/2006 2006CIV000475 FORECLOSURES Closed
WAGNER, FREDERICKA Plaintiff 01/17/2008 2008CIV000028 OTHER CIVIL Closed
WAGNER, FREDERICKA Plaintiff 03/11/2008 2008CIV000113 OTHER CIVIL Closed
WAGNER, FREDERICKA Plaintiff 06/10/2009 2009CIV000269 OTHER CIVIL Closed
WAGNER, FREDERICKA CAROL Defendant 11/13/2018 2018CR000159 OBSTRUCTING JUSTICE Open

Wagner - This Case is a Dog | Tortious Interference | Summary Judgment

Fredricka & George Wagner (Flying W American Mastiffs) are using two of my dogs on their website - please look
"That just goes to show that they are so ashamed of their own dogs they can't even use them in advertising.
Go get'em Jann"

Fredericka Wagner/Flying W Farms arrested in Pike County, Ohio murders. - Chronicle Forums
Nov. 23, 2018, 01:57 PM
"Huh. I bought Wonder Pony from them.

The possible drug stuff? Makes so much sense. Something definitely didn't seem right, but I ignored it.

On the day I was supposed to wire money, Fredericka called me and said Angela had quoted me the wrong price on the mare. Suddenly, Wonder Pony is 'one of the best horses' they'd ever bred and worth way more money.

Interesting. Then why weren't you taking better care of her?

Anyway. I told her no deal and walked. She called me back ASAP and said never mind, we'll take the original offer."
_______________________________________________________________

Nov. 21, 2018, 09:16 PM
"I have been reading about those murders but never connected "those" Wagners to Flying W Farms. In the 60's when I got my first Arabian I was warned off of Flying W Farms by the breeders of my horse. Apparently they had a dicey reputation that far back.

The whole case is seriously disturbing. "

"Anyway. I told her no deal and walked. She called me back ASAP and said never mind, we'll take the original offer."

Supports my argument that didn't have the cold hard cash they wanted everyone to think they had.
They were scammers trying to nickle and dime everyone.

 

[ChickaDee221]

So, is it my understanding that (now, I haven't made it all the way back to thread #1) there are NO other suspects in this case? That this is it? These people are without a doubt (innocent until proven guilty) the one who committed these crimes? I ask, because reading through threads, there is at least someone who will give an alternative. But, all of you seem to be on the same page as far as who did this. Even when it happened, were there others that LE considered? Or has it always been, the W's?
And, someone stated the mob connection, I do not think these idiots (because I seriously think they are dim wits) would still be alive of there was any connection to the mob. They wouldn't want it traced to them. There generally isn't very much news surrounding murder commited by the mafia because they don't get caught. JMO on that.
(I know I am posting a lot, but I am getting caught up and these are just my thoughts as I am reading)

I wanted to edit this, but couldn't figure out how to do it.
I am aware that the word cartel floated around in the beginning. IMO that was not a possibility. And, the drugs didn't factor into this statement. In this statement as other suspects I meant other locals with a grudge or a reason to commit 8 cold blooded murderers in front of those poor little babies.

I spent 14 years on the Mexico border (21 years on the Canadian border).
1. If were about the weed they were growing, they would have waited until harvest. And, would have taken the drugs.
2. If it were cartel, they would have sent the crop ablaze to send a message that this isn't happening anymore. And, if you try this, this is where you end up.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Do we know if HR was receiving Medicaid for SW? I have heard that stated but I am not certain. If it's true and accurate SW wasn't receiving Medicaid then my theory could be different now. Tia. Jmo.

She either had to be receiving Medicaid for SW or signed up on the marketplace (Obamacare) as by law, as a part timer at her job, her workplace did not have to offer her health insurance. Dana was not the legal guardian of SW so she would not have been able to add her to any health insurance policy she had at work. Obamacare can be expensive so I am guessing SW had Medicaid.

JMO

 

[rsd1200]

Married into a hardcore Southern Baptist family (though my husband broke out, my in laws practice) as a Catholic. It is.... Interesting (jmo)

Raised Pentecostal, have Pentecostal family and friends, old hard core Southern Baptist inlaws, Catholic inlaws, and close Catholic friends, and I agree, differences in relgions are interesting.

 

[Cool Cats]

"Anyway. I told her no deal and walked. She called me back ASAP and said never mind, we'll take the original offer."

Supports my argument that didn't have the cold hard cash they wanted everyone to think they had.
They were scammers trying to nickle and dime everyone.

@ChickaDee221 didn't know if you had read this or not. If not, I am sure you will want to read it since your interested in the Wagner family "nickle and dime" business practices.

Matriarch of Wagner family accused in Pike County massacre spent decades building wealth

Several hopeful buyers have attempted to purchase this 5-acre parcel over the years from Fredericka Wagner. Not one has been successful. Pike County Auditor's Office.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


More than 100 land contracts
Those who rented or attempted to purchase land from Fredericka Wagner described her as driven by one thing: money.

Over decades, she and her late husband, George "Bob" Wagner, entered into at least 132 land installment contracts in an apparent attempt to sell off smaller portions of their land. The contracts allowed the Wagners to retain deeds on the land as buyers attempted to pay off their principal and interest.

Some contracts included interest rates of 10 percent or higher, including at least three above 13 percent.

If buyers made all their payments, they’d eventually become owners of the land.

It rarely played out that way.

Twelve contracts were satisfied.

Nearly 80 percent were ultimately terminated without a corresponding deed transfer, indicating the land returned to Wagner possession.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


1 property, 3 failed attempts to purchase
In an examination of the Wagner contracts, the terminations and civil disputes that ended up in court, The Enquirer found three separate parties attempted to buy the same 5-acre parcel owned by the Wagners.

Not one of the buyers was successful.

The first potential buyer improved the land, boosting its value, according to the buyer’s son.

The contract called for the buyer to make improvements to the property.

Charlie Swain signed the contract for $29,000 on June 27, 1997. But he was unable to keep up with the $250 payments due to health issues and the loss of his job.

So Cecil Swain, son of Charlie Swain, tried to help by offering to make his father's payments.

Fredericka Wagner declined the offers, Cecil Swain said. She told him she could make more money by reselling the land since his father had developed it, he added.

Owen denied Cecil Swain made such an offer.

"She didn't care, as long as she got the money," Cecil Swain said.

Fredericka Wagner said by phone on Nov. 25 that the issue of land contracts has "nothing to do with (the criminal allegations). It’s irrelevant.”

She added, “If you don’t make your payments, you can’t stay there.”

A Pike County judge ordered Charlie Swain to forfeit the land, returning it to the Wagners.

Charlie Swain may not have been able to obtain it even if the Wagners hadn’t sued. His original contract included a provision calling for a “final balloon payment” of $27,351.99. The balloon payment was due about five years into the contract.

Less than four months after Charlie Swain lost in court, the Wagners found a new buyer for the 5-acre parcel.

A woman entered into a land installment contract agreement in May 2001. This time, the Wagners charged $40,000, or 37.9 percent more than they charged Charlie Swain.

And the monthly payments increased by $100, to $350.

Six months later, in November 2001, the contract was terminated. No cause was given. The termination document said the Wagners would keep all payments made and “all parties agree that there shall be no monetary reward, or reimbursement to the (woman) for any improvements they may have made to the land.”

About three years later, yet another land contract began for the parcel, this one in October 2004, according to the corresponding lawsuit the Wagners would eventually file.

This time, a mother of two young children and her boyfriend were the hopeful buyers. The price for the property increased again, to $48,000, according to a receipt shared by Owen with The Enquirer. Monthly payments jumped to $400.

A contemporary memo prepared by Fredericka Wagner and shared with The Enquirer said the buyers missed payments.

Fredericka Wagner and her husband sued the mother, Misty Ison, and her boyfriend in 2008. A judge terminated the land contract and ordered the family off the land.

“We done all the work to the land and everything, and finally got it fixed and everything, then all of a sudden losing it like we did,” Ison said from a Piketon motel, where she’s been staying recently after becoming homeless last March. “It was – it was tough.”

Today, that 5-acre parcel is valued at $23,860, according to the Auditor’s Office. It’s owned by White Pines Realty LLC, a business formed by Wagner and her husband.

New hopeful buyers signed yet another land contract for the parcel in 2014. The contract calls for $143,300 to be paid over approximately 30 years.

Michael Gibbons-Camp, a staff attorney with Southeastern Ohio Legal Services, which provides legal assistance to those who can’t afford it, said some land contracts are predatory.

"The seller is just squeezing whatever money they can get out of a purchaser, knowing that they're going to get the property back and they can do it again," he said.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


The Wagners ‘may have taken advantage of the situation’
Those were far from the only deals with the Wagners that soured.

In another case, Fredericka Wagner and her husband were accused in court of attempting to exploit an illiterate man to gain control of a small bit of land he'd been making payments on for about a decade.

The Wagners sued the man and his family in 2006, claiming he defaulted on a contract for 5 acres in the neighboring Newton Township.

But in response, and with the help of attorney Stacy M. Brooks, the man denied the claims and alleged the Wagners were bilking him. Brooks, who told The Enquirer the man was a veteran with limited resources, represented him pro bono through Southeastern Ohio Legal Services.

The man had entered into an oral agreement with the Wagners to pay $15,000 and no interest for the land near his property in 1996, according to Brooks’ filing in the case.

That same year, according to the filing, the Wagners attempted to have him sign a land contract he couldn’t read and that included "a balloon payment at the end." The man never signed the contract.

The land contract called for about $9,000 in payments over about five years, with a “final balloon payment” of $14,764.55, according to property records.

The man kept up his $155 monthly payments, Brooks’ filing states, which indicates he paid a total of approximately $18,000 prior to the suit. But in the 2006 suit, the Wagners alleged he still owed about $14,000 at 12 percent interest per year, plus a $201 late fee.

Brooks, on behalf of the man, wrote: "the land installment contract is unconscionable since the price greatly exceeds the value of the property."

Owen said Fredericka Wagner and her husband sued after the man asked for a deed to the land, claiming he’d completed his payments.

“Fredericka said, ‘Well, you’re forgetting the interest,’ ” Owen said. “He said, ‘What do you mean? I thought I just had to pay you this.’ She said, 'It’s in the contract.' ”

Brooks told The Enquirer she remembered the man as "not sophisticated in dealing with the Wagners, and our theory was they may have taken advantage of the situation ..."

The case was dismissed after an out-of-court settlement. Terms of the settlement were not listed in public documents. Brooks could not recall the terms and said the record of the agreement may be confidential.

Owen said Fredericka Wagner waived what the man owed when she learned he couldn’t read in court. When asked if she could have determined the man’s literacy without a lawsuit, Owen said Fredericka Wagner “didn’t really believe initially that he couldn’t read or write.”

A deed was filed a week after the case was dismissed, transferring the land into the man’s name.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Kim Parks has lived for about a decade near the Flying W farm.

“They (the Wagners) act like they’re church going people, but they’re not,” Parks said. “It’s all a cover-up.”

A tenant, who wished to remain anonymous out of fear of the Wagners, said Fredericka Wagner has increased her rent 25 percent since the massacre of the Rhodens.

“She don’t care what her (tenants) do, long as she gets the money,” Parks said of the matriarch.

 

[Scakes]

I am just jumping off of your post Scakes.

I posted a link (pages back) that your 1st sentence is exactly in agreement with Ohio law. (My son signed this form in Ohio. His last name is on the birth certificate. The girlfriend has complete custodial rights.) My son visits the child when she approves and she is very good about that.) JW was very lucky with 50/50 custody.

I don't believe that JW hired a lawyer to finalize what 'they agreed to'. No lawyer has came forward. It's more of their lies IMO.

JW didn't want anyone else to have HR. He needed her signature to take SW out of the country (thru Canada) and he did what so many creeps did. He killed her but he had to kill the rest of them to assure custody of SW.

People are possesions to him and the family is weird enough to go along with murdering 8 people to achieve his goals.

jmo. moo.

Something just popped into my head about custody and reasons for the forged documents. We keep saying that he needed them to go to Alaska with her, but they could’ve flown to Alaska with SW and they wouldn’t have needed them.

 

[Cool Cats]

********New Court Information Listed for Jake Wagner********

His Status Conference, that had been scheduled for April 16th, was cancelled as we know. But now there are 2 events scheduled for him on the same day.

Edward "Jake" Wagner...PRE-TRIAL HEARING...May 14, 2:00pm

Edward "Jake" Wagner...MOTION HEARING...May 14, 2:00pm

Hummm........Wonder whatever became of Jake's Status Conference?

 

[ChickaDee221]

@ChickaDee221 didn't know if you had read this or not. If not, I am sure you will want to read it since your interested in the Wagner family "nickle and dime" business practices.

Matriarch of Wagner family accused in Pike County massacre spent decades building wealth

Several hopeful buyers have attempted to purchase this 5-acre parcel over the years from Fredericka Wagner. Not one has been successful. Pike County Auditor's Office.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


More than 100 land contracts
Those who rented or attempted to purchase land from Fredericka Wagner described her as driven by one thing: money.

Over decades, she and her late husband, George "Bob" Wagner, entered into at least 132 land installment contracts in an apparent attempt to sell off smaller portions of their land. The contracts allowed the Wagners to retain deeds on the land as buyers attempted to pay off their principal and interest.

Some contracts included interest rates of 10 percent or higher, including at least three above 13 percent.

If buyers made all their payments, they’d eventually become owners of the land.

It rarely played out that way.

Twelve contracts were satisfied.

Nearly 80 percent were ultimately terminated without a corresponding deed transfer, indicating the land returned to Wagner possession.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


1 property, 3 failed attempts to purchase
In an examination of the Wagner contracts, the terminations and civil disputes that ended up in court, The Enquirer found three separate parties attempted to buy the same 5-acre parcel owned by the Wagners.

Not one of the buyers was successful.

The first potential buyer improved the land, boosting its value, according to the buyer’s son.

The contract called for the buyer to make improvements to the property.

Charlie Swain signed the contract for $29,000 on June 27, 1997. But he was unable to keep up with the $250 payments due to health issues and the loss of his job.

So Cecil Swain, son of Charlie Swain, tried to help by offering to make his father's payments.

Fredericka Wagner declined the offers, Cecil Swain said. She told him she could make more money by reselling the land since his father had developed it, he added.

Owen denied Cecil Swain made such an offer.

"She didn't care, as long as she got the money," Cecil Swain said.

Fredericka Wagner said by phone on Nov. 25 that the issue of land contracts has "nothing to do with (the criminal allegations). It’s irrelevant.”

She added, “If you don’t make your payments, you can’t stay there.”

A Pike County judge ordered Charlie Swain to forfeit the land, returning it to the Wagners.

Charlie Swain may not have been able to obtain it even if the Wagners hadn’t sued. His original contract included a provision calling for a “final balloon payment” of $27,351.99. The balloon payment was due about five years into the contract.

Less than four months after Charlie Swain lost in court, the Wagners found a new buyer for the 5-acre parcel.

A woman entered into a land installment contract agreement in May 2001. This time, the Wagners charged $40,000, or 37.9 percent more than they charged Charlie Swain.

And the monthly payments increased by $100, to $350.

Six months later, in November 2001, the contract was terminated. No cause was given. The termination document said the Wagners would keep all payments made and “all parties agree that there shall be no monetary reward, or reimbursement to the (woman) for any improvements they may have made to the land.”

About three years later, yet another land contract began for the parcel, this one in October 2004, according to the corresponding lawsuit the Wagners would eventually file.

This time, a mother of two young children and her boyfriend were the hopeful buyers. The price for the property increased again, to $48,000, according to a receipt shared by Owen with The Enquirer. Monthly payments jumped to $400.

A contemporary memo prepared by Fredericka Wagner and shared with The Enquirer said the buyers missed payments.

Fredericka Wagner and her husband sued the mother, Misty Ison, and her boyfriend in 2008. A judge terminated the land contract and ordered the family off the land.

“We done all the work to the land and everything, and finally got it fixed and everything, then all of a sudden losing it like we did,” Ison said from a Piketon motel, where she’s been staying recently after becoming homeless last March. “It was – it was tough.”

Today, that 5-acre parcel is valued at $23,860, according to the Auditor’s Office. It’s owned by White Pines Realty LLC, a business formed by Wagner and her husband.

New hopeful buyers signed yet another land contract for the parcel in 2014. The contract calls for $143,300 to be paid over approximately 30 years.

Michael Gibbons-Camp, a staff attorney with Southeastern Ohio Legal Services, which provides legal assistance to those who can’t afford it, said some land contracts are predatory.

"The seller is just squeezing whatever money they can get out of a purchaser, knowing that they're going to get the property back and they can do it again," he said.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


The Wagners ‘may have taken advantage of the situation’
Those were far from the only deals with the Wagners that soured.

In another case, Fredericka Wagner and her husband were accused in court of attempting to exploit an illiterate man to gain control of a small bit of land he'd been making payments on for about a decade.

The Wagners sued the man and his family in 2006, claiming he defaulted on a contract for 5 acres in the neighboring Newton Township.

But in response, and with the help of attorney Stacy M. Brooks, the man denied the claims and alleged the Wagners were bilking him. Brooks, who told The Enquirer the man was a veteran with limited resources, represented him pro bono through Southeastern Ohio Legal Services.

The man had entered into an oral agreement with the Wagners to pay $15,000 and no interest for the land near his property in 1996, according to Brooks’ filing in the case.

That same year, according to the filing, the Wagners attempted to have him sign a land contract he couldn’t read and that included "a balloon payment at the end." The man never signed the contract.

The land contract called for about $9,000 in payments over about five years, with a “final balloon payment” of $14,764.55, according to property records.

The man kept up his $155 monthly payments, Brooks’ filing states, which indicates he paid a total of approximately $18,000 prior to the suit. But in the 2006 suit, the Wagners alleged he still owed about $14,000 at 12 percent interest per year, plus a $201 late fee.

Brooks, on behalf of the man, wrote: "the land installment contract is unconscionable since the price greatly exceeds the value of the property."

Owen said Fredericka Wagner and her husband sued after the man asked for a deed to the land, claiming he’d completed his payments.

“Fredericka said, ‘Well, you’re forgetting the interest,’ ” Owen said. “He said, ‘What do you mean? I thought I just had to pay you this.’ She said, 'It’s in the contract.' ”

Brooks told The Enquirer she remembered the man as "not sophisticated in dealing with the Wagners, and our theory was they may have taken advantage of the situation ..."

The case was dismissed after an out-of-court settlement. Terms of the settlement were not listed in public documents. Brooks could not recall the terms and said the record of the agreement may be confidential.

Owen said Fredericka Wagner waived what the man owed when she learned he couldn’t read in court. When asked if she could have determined the man’s literacy without a lawsuit, Owen said Fredericka Wagner “didn’t really believe initially that he couldn’t read or write.”

A deed was filed a week after the case was dismissed, transferring the land into the man’s name.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Kim Parks has lived for about a decade near the Flying W farm.

“They (the Wagners) act like they’re church going people, but they’re not,” Parks said. “It’s all a cover-up.”

A tenant, who wished to remain anonymous out of fear of the Wagners, said Fredericka Wagner has increased her rent 25 percent since the massacre of the Rhodens.

“She don’t care what her (tenants) do, long as she gets the money,” Parks said of the matriarch.

First and foremost, I appreciate your time in compiling this information for me.
It leads me to believe even more so that FW is lead dog of this pack. What she says goes.
I also agree with the "church going" sentiment.
I would like to see them turn on her and give a statement to the real goings on and why this tragedy happened. But, it will never happen.

Edit to note : If you have so much money, why do you need to screw everyone over? 12/132... That means 120 people were screwed in some way. Why? I mean, she's so rich. Right? Has so much money. And, soooooo Godly. Doesn't make sense to keep being so hateful over 220k (at most).
(I am well aware to most of us 220k is A LOT of money, but when you're sooooo rich, it's a drop in the bucket)

I know a lot is said about the custody issue, but then I read info (here) about DNA testing and if the child is his.
What sense would thay make? To kill an entire family over a child that isn't his? And, how deep rooted do the issues have to he in order to commit this specific crime of murdering an entire family?

 

[Skibunny]

I agree with everything you say. IMO it would have been easier if JW could have become a social butterfly upon his breakup with HMR, and found himself another Baby Mama or two, if having children were all that important to him. Seems the W4 wanted complete control of HMR and the rest of her family JMO. The W4 seem like "power hungry" losers to me. Also envy of the cash flow the R family seemed to have, with used car deals, jobs and the small amount from the weed played a part. JMO