OH - Pike County: 8 people from one family dead as police hunt for killer(s) - #28

[jk204]

Surfing a bit more tonight. The pastor who commented twice, about missing HMR at church, on her fb, was/is pastor to the church that is only 3 1/2 miles or so, from the elder Ws farm, it's around 5 miles from the Bethel Hill address, it's around 20 miles from UHR, and over 30 from the Peterson Road location. I'm purely speculating here but I've thought for awhile that HMR spent a lot of time at the Ws home, and I'd not rule out time spent at the elder Ws home too. I've wondered if something happened that abruptly changed her relationship with JW, and the rest of the Ws. They'd been together for at least four years and he even stated that he'd hoped she'd come back home and bring the infant with her. Whatever it was, may have possibly caused an abrupt change between the three generations of Ws too. Purely guessing. Something just doesn't seem right. If my grandchild needed money to get custody of his child, and I had the money, he'd not be maxing out his credit cards. That's just me though. Everyone is different, and sees things differently.

There are several churches in the Camp Creek area. There were different pastors who were in contact with one or several of the victims.

Pastor Fulton seems to be, from what I read, the closest to the Manleys. His church isn't far from Peterson Road. I don't know who else attended his church. The 260 Peterson road realtor is also a pastor and he is related somehow to Fulton. It's a small world.

The Rhodens used to attend Pastor Fulton's UH church but were no longer attending. I don't know why.

Overall it's important to understand the environment of the victims. Understanding their church practice is part of that. JMO.

 

[amauet1]

Well me myself, I been kinda confused about the W's storing their belongings on a friends/associates parking lot. With the grandparents there and all the acres they own, I wonder why they didn't just ask them to keep their things? Maybe the family has had some kind of "falling out" of some kind.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

BBM
Yes, they do. I've seen it happen. Homes, cars, more cars when they wreck the previous cars, high end apartments. My own child was gifted a suv from their grandparents of my ex. (I couldn't have bought it.) This is all within my own family. I, however, am not wealthy, and the money is within branches that will never trickle down to me. That's okay though. I do okay and help the kids as much as possible, financially, with no thought of repayment.

If the Ws had a hand in this, I agree, they did not do this on their own. Someone helped. One or two may have rode along, but I don't see them as trigger folks. I don't see the elder Ws as having a hand in it b/c I have feeling, or "vibe" if you may, that something isn't right between the elders and G3 & AW.

Public volunteers would be highly unlikely. For one thing, look at the silence in this case, they aren't going to tell a bunch of public citizens what they are looking for if it is a sealed warrant. Secondly, private citizens are not trained in how to handle evidence, and how, exactly that they can go about obtaining said evidence, so, no matter how damning the evidence may be, if not obtained properly, it can, and most likely will, be thrown out in court. I don't think that they want to take that chance by having a bunch of civilians all over these places not knowing the proper way to go about search warrant procedures. It's not the same as looking for a lost child.

I agree, it doesn't mean a thing that the Ws haven't been arrested, nor that anyone from the other 41 search warrants have been arrested. We don't know what might have been taken from those searches either.

Everything has been as silent as possible throughout this whole past year, from day one. It just takes an enormous amount of people to search nearly 2,000 acres. I do think that the Ws and the Ms are on their radar, along with some others on their radar as well. I'm not discounting the fact that the Ws may have something to do with this, but, they're innocent until proven guilty.

BBM

There is a lot of difference between an SUV and 175K for a house. I agree. Sometimes grandparents buy their grandchildren a car (I am guilty of that) and yes sometimes they buy them a house also.

But I just do not think that is the case with JW and his grandparents. We don't have any proof either way whether they did or not, but if they bought a house for their grandchild JW, why was their son living with that grandson? Why didn't they buy a house for their son to live in also? Another thing, they have a 2000 acre farm, if they were that chummy with their grandson JW, why didn't they just build him a house on some of that acreage? They could have built a home cheaper than 175K and closer to them at that.

I don't think the W's are the trigger folks either, but I think they got the R's killed and helped with information about the homes and properties, and even rode along that night.

The W's had this beautiful new life planned in Alaska. JW wanted HR to come back to him and bring the kids. She refused. So him and his father tried to get her to sign away parental rights to SW. She refused. And I do not think there was any way the W's were going to Alaska and leaving SW behind with her mom.

Part of what could have figured into them not wanting to leave her behind with the R's was the elder CR going to prison for molesting a child. Some people are so narrow minded that they believe those kinds of things run in families. Like father, like son, like grandson, ect. Or if they didn't believe that per se, then maybe they just didn't want to take a chance on it. And there was the question of who was the father of K. If JW was there would be two grand daughters to worry about. And there are people who look on child molesters as needing to be killed. I want to make it clear I am in no way implying that any of the R's would even think about doing that, I am just saying in small towns, these things are always known, and people judge the whole family for it.

When you are talking about murder, the first question you ask, is who benefited? Whether it is money, custody or something else, who benefited? Who gained something from this murder.

In this case the W's did. JW got full custody.

This of course is just my own speculation.

 

[Dudly]

Surfing a bit more tonight. The pastor who commented twice, about missing HMR at church, on her fb, was/is pastor to the church that is only 3 1/2 miles or so, from the elder Ws farm, it's around 5 miles from the Bethel Hill address, it's around 20 miles from UHR, and over 30 from the Peterson Road location. I'm purely speculating here but I've thought for awhile that HMR spent a lot of time at the Ws home, and I'd not rule out time spent at the elder Ws home too. I've wondered if something happened that abruptly changed her relationship with JW, and the rest of the Ws. They'd been together for at least four years and he even stated that he'd hoped she'd come back home and bring the infant with her. Whatever it was, may have possibly caused an abrupt change between the three generations of Ws too. Purely guessing. Something just doesn't seem right. If my grandchild needed money to get custody of his child, and I had the money, he'd not be maxing out his credit cards. That's just me though. Everyone is different, and sees things differently.

I had an aunt that was quite well to do. She never offered help to anyone for anything. I don't know anyone who'd have bothered to ask her for help. When she passed away everything she had went to a church and public library. Next of kin got a letter stating they would not get anything after her will was read.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

BBM
Yes, they do. I've seen it happen. Homes, cars, more cars when they wreck the previous cars, high end apartments. My own child was gifted a suv from their grandparents of my ex. (I couldn't have bought it.) This is all within my own family. I, however, am not wealthy, and the money is within branches that will never trickle down to me. That's okay though. I do okay and help the kids as much as possible, financially, with no thought of repayment.

If the Ws had a hand in this, I agree, they did not do this on their own. Someone helped. One or two may have rode along, but I don't see them as trigger folks. I don't see the elder Ws as having a hand in it b/c I have feeling, or "vibe" if you may, that something isn't right between the elders and G3 & AW.

Public volunteers would be highly unlikely. For one thing, look at the silence in this case, they aren't going to tell a bunch of public citizens what they are looking for if it is a sealed warrant. Secondly, private citizens are not trained in how to handle evidence, and how, exactly that they can go about obtaining said evidence, so, no matter how damning the evidence may be, if not obtained properly, it can, and most likely will, be thrown out in court. I don't think that they want to take that chance by having a bunch of civilians all over these places not knowing the proper way to go about search warrant procedures. It's not the same as looking for a lost child.

I agree, it doesn't mean a thing that the Ws haven't been arrested, nor that anyone from the other 41 search warrants have been arrested. We don't know what might have been taken from those searches either.

Everything has been as silent as possible throughout this whole past year, from day one. It just takes an enormous amount of people to search nearly 2,000 acres. I do think that the Ws and the Ms are on their radar, along with some others on their radar as well. I'm not discounting the fact that the Ws may have something to do with this, but, they're innocent until proven guilty.

BBM

There is a huge difference between those other 41 search warrants and the search warrants for the W's. We don't know who those other 41 search warrants were served on. There was no media alert given in those warrants. No wholesale circus of 33 units of LE rolling in when they were served. No SWAT or DTF.

I makes me wonder who alerted the media on the W's search warrants. Why was it so public when every thing else in this case has been locked down tight? Why was such a big production made of it, rolling out SWAT, which would have gained attention on it's own, and also the DTF and DOC STARR team. The only thing missing on it was Gibbs and the NCIS team. It's like they wanted every LE special teams they had there to call as much attention to the searches as they could.

I personally believe it was because LE knows the W's are involved in the murders and they wanted to put public pressure on them and in general make their lives miserable by doing that hoping it might break them and gain a confession. JMO

Anyone else have a thought on why the searches of the W properties were so public when the other 41 search warrants were so silent?

 

[RAISINISBACK]

I had an aunt that was quite well to do. She never offered help to anyone for anything. I don't know anyone who'd have bothered to ask her for help. When she passed away everything she had went to a church and public library. Next of kin got a letter stating they would not get anything after her will was read.

Leona Helmsley would be a great example of that. She left it all to the dog and charity cutting out her own son and grandchildren.

I do not think the elder W's gave JW and his brother 175K to buy that house. We have no proof they did, but then again we have no proof they didn't. Did any of their other grandchildren buy a 175K house without a mortgage? That would be a question to be asked.

I know people who are very wealthy. They don't give their kids anything except tuition for college.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Well me myself, I been kinda confused about the W's storing their belongings on a friends/associates parking lot. With the grandparents there and all the acres they own, I wonder why they didn't just ask them to keep their things? Maybe the family has had some kind of "falling out" of some kind.

Maybe the elder W's knew their son and grandson's were involved in the R murders and didn't want any evidence that may have existed to be on their property?

Then again if my theory of drug trafficking is true, the elder W's would have not wanted any trailers, trucks or possessions belonging to the son and grandsons on their farm.

Because if LE found any drugs or even residue of drugs in one of those trailers or trucks on their farm, the elder W's could have been pulled into a scandal of drug trafficking which at the very least would have ruined their reputation in business. If it was proved they knew their kid and grandkids were drug trafficking there could possibly have been a case made for them losing their farm under the RICO Act. JMO

 

[rsd1200]

People have different principles with respect to helping young adult children.

A) I grew up around the Great Lakes. In my family, learning to become autonomous and hard worker is paramount. My parents don't overhelp and keep their money to enjoy retirement. We've been warned they worked hard for their money and would spend it all by their death. For us to make our own.

B) My wife is european. In her family, it's* important to leave money and property to the children. Her parents are very conservative with money, they feel like their money is no longer theirs now they have grandchildren. They think it's unfair my parents are leaving too little to our children.

I understand both perspectives and have basically cut mine off after they reached 21 unless it is for an emergency. I'd help my child or grandchild gain custody of their child though, after her other parent had been murdered along with the rest of the child's immediate maternal family. That would be my grand/great grandchild. That's not the same as buying them a pony or an suv. When it comes to family, most folks in the region will help their blood, even the ones that they may not like as much. lol

My parents fall into group A. My exes paternal family fall in group B. They don't dole out money left and right, but did buy the suv for my child. They've been very frugal, and intended to leave a significant sum to the grandchildren. Unfortunately, they didn't foresee ill health and assisted living. My current spouse's parents fell somewhere in the middle. They liked to bestow gifts, but enjoy the money that they'd made here on earth, b/c they couldn't take it with them! And enjoy it they did. :dance:

 

[Margo/Mom]

Regarding lie detector tests, Jody Barr reported this:

Since the initial interrogation, Len said his son has submitted to a lie detector test as part of the investigation, but “failed” that examination.

Bobby Jo Manley told FOX19 NOW that she’s submitted to three tests and “passed each one of them,” she said standing on her father’s porch Tuesday afternoon.

Len, though, says he has no confidence that investigators will make arrests in the murders of his daughter and the other victims.

"As dumb as these guys is?" Leonard said, then laughed.

"I always said, 'they couldn't catch a cold,'" said Leonard. "And I'll say it til the day I die."

http://www.fox19.com/story/35453014...of-arrests-investigators-couldnt-catch-a-cold

I cannot find where the Ws have submitted to any lie detector tests. That doesn't seem fair since, even though they are considered innocent until proven guilty, the motive for them was quite obvious.

That bit of reporting has been bothering me. I have no problem believing that Leonard and Bobby Jo said those things. But lie detector test are a bit more complex than that. First off, they are not a pass/fail test. Their statements seem to indicate that the purpose of the test is to establish whether a particular person is a truth-teller or a liar. First off, the reliability of such tests is questionable--depending on the state may not be admitted into evidence. Where they are useful to LE is in providing some broad notion of areas in which the witness is sufficiently uncomfortable to indicate that the information they are providing is less than the whole truth. And LE is under no obligation to share the results with the witness, in whole or in part, or even truthfully. They may press a witness on some area in which they say that the results indicate they are lying. They may tell a witness that everything looks good in order to give them a false sense of security that may lead them to drop some information that they are seeking. For instance, they may find it helpful for Leonard (or someone else) to believe that LE is dumb and therefore to keep right on talking.

 

[rsd1200]

There are several churches in the Camp Creek area. There were different pastors who were in contact with one or several of the victims.

Pastor Fulton seems to be, from what I read, the closest to the Manleys. His church isn't far from Peterson Road. I don't know who else attended his church. The 260 Peterson road realtor is also a pastor and he is related somehow to Fulton. It's a small world.

The Rhodens used to attend Pastor Fulton's UH church but were no longer attending. I don't know why.

Overall it's important to understand the environment of the victims. Understanding their church practice is part of that. JMO.

This was not pastor Fulton. This pastor indicated in one post that he was still looking for her at H****** Church, and for her not to forget them. He indicated in one that he was glad she stopped by b/c they had wondered what had happened to her, that she'd become part of the family,etc..., commented on the pic of her and S being 'beautiful', and in another he just said, Hi. The "part of the family" comment led me to believe that she'd been attending there.

 

[Dudly]

That bit of reporting has been bothering me. I have no problem believing that Leonard and Bobby Jo said those things. But lie detector test are a bit more complex than that. First off, they are not a pass/fail test. Their statements seem to indicate that the purpose of the test is to establish whether a particular person is a truth-teller or a liar. First off, the reliability of such tests is questionable--depending on the state may not be admitted into evidence. Where they are useful to LE is in providing some broad notion of areas in which the witness is sufficiently uncomfortable to indicate that the information they are providing is less than the whole truth. And LE is under no obligation to share the results with the witness, in whole or in part, or even truthfully. They may press a witness on some area in which they say that the results indicate they are lying. They may tell a witness that everything looks good in order to give them a false sense of security that may lead them to drop some information that they are seeking. For instance, they may find it helpful for Leonard (or someone else) to believe that LE is dumb and therefore to keep right on talking.

I've wondered if LE was being truthful about JM failing a polygraph test. It sure does not seem fair that LE is allowed to lie about evidence but a suspect is not.

 

[rsd1200]

BBM

There is a lot of difference between an SUV and 175K for a house. I agree. Sometimes grandparents buy their grandchildren a car (I am guilty of that) and yes sometimes they buy them a house also.

But I just do not think that is the case with JW and his grandparents. We don't have any proof either way whether they did or not, but if they bought a house for their grandchild JW, why was their son living with that grandson? Why didn't they buy a house for their son to live in also? Another thing, they have a 2000 acre farm, if they were that chummy with their grandson JW, why didn't they just build him a house on some of that acreage? They could have built a home cheaper than 175K and closer to them at that.

I don't think the W's are the trigger folks either, but I think they got the R's killed and helped with information about the homes and properties, and even rode along that night.

The W's had this beautiful new life planned in Alaska. JW wanted HR to come back to him and bring the kids. She refused. So him and his father tried to get her to sign away parental rights to SW. She refused. And I do not think there was any way the W's were going to Alaska and leaving SW behind with her mom.

Part of what could have figured into them not wanting to leave her behind with the R's was the elder CR going to prison for molesting a child. Some people are so narrow minded that they believe those kinds of things run in families. Like father, like son, like grandson, ect. Or if they didn't believe that per se, then maybe they just didn't want to take a chance on it. And there was the question of who was the father of K. If JW was there would be two grand daughters to worry about. And there are people who look on child molesters as needing to be killed. I want to make it clear I am in no way implying that any of the R's would even think about doing that, I am just saying in small towns, these things are always known, and people judge the whole family for it.

When you are talking about murder, the first question you ask, is who benefited? Whether it is money, custody or something else, who benefited? Who gained something from this murder.

In this case the W's did. JW got full custody.

This of course is just my own speculation.

BBM

Homes, cars, more cars when they wreck the previous cars, high end apartments.

As I mentioned, all of the above, within my own family. It's just not that uncommon for people who have money. Sometimes, though, there are strings attached. If you don't want to have strings attached to you, then the money goes away. I don't want to be beholden to anyone. The SUV was a graduation gift. It was the only big item ever given. The living quarters, vacations, vehicles, etc... were another branch, and they did it b/c they could and it was their kids and grandkids and they had no one else to spend it on. Can't take it with you.

Maybe they had the falling out with their son, not their grandsons. What I mean was there could have been trust funds set up for the grandsons years ago and they got them at age 21. That doesn't mean the elders was going to help out the son again. I've got one that didn't get an suv b/c they didn't finish their education.

If they'd wanted to do this, and they were not the trigger men/women, they could have just as easily had the trigger folks catch HMR out alone, driving her jeep four days after giving birth (so we've been told) lure her away, murder her, and take the body into the mountains. There's people all around these mountains who have disappeared and never been found. Happened to one of my kid's and their friend's friend not long ago. There's a WS thread for her on here. She vanished into the mountains where she'd liver her entire life. If they entrusted people, who are still alive, to kill eight people, to keep this secret, then it would have been much easier to have had HMR's brakes fail, or have her drown while fishing, or just vanish after finding her car parked near a trail into the Appalachian Mountains. We have people die on the trails here every, single, year. They over estimate their abilities, or that jump to that ledge isn't THAT far, but it is. Appalachia is beautiful but one can disappear pretty easily, whether by accident, or with a little help from an enemy. I don't think they were the trigger folks either, but if they did do this, and had help, and the help is still alive, then the help better be watching their backs.

 

[jk204]

This was not pastor Fulton. This pastor indicated in one post that he was still looking for her at H****** Church, and for her not to forget them. He indicated in one that he was glad she stopped by b/c they had wondered what had happened to her, that she'd become part of the family,etc..., commented on the pic of her and S being 'beautiful', and in another he just said, Hi. The "part of the family" comment led me to believe that she'd been attending there.

Did she go there with JW or someone else?

 

[rsd1200]

I had an aunt that was quite well to do. She never offered help to anyone for anything. I don't know anyone who'd have bothered to ask her for help. When she passed away everything she had went to a church and public library. Next of kin got a letter stating they would not get anything after her will was read.

I had two family members who gave a decent amount of land to build churches. I don't know if it was their entire estate and no one else got anything but it does happen. Most of my people will help family in tight times with food, and shelter, if needed. Most of my kin would rather eat rocks than to ask for the help though. My one set of grandparents always had food cooked and both grandparents would feed anyone who dropped by. My one set were not wealthy by any means. Never had running water in the house, and would probably be considered poor by today's standards, but I never thought of them as poor, and they never really did either, looking back. There was a family just down the road who were what we called "dirt poor", back then. I always felt so bad for the kids, being a kid myself, and wondered many times over the years what happened to them. They literally had nothing that you could call much more than a roof and four walls. Sorry, went OT. My point; Even though folks may not be wealthy, most will help one another in whatever way they can, a lot of times, but a lot of times, those who need help are deign to ask for it, unless it comes down to help for their child. I would suck up my pride for my child(ren) if it meant I might lose them, and I'd help my kids if they came to me in need over my grandchildren. I do realize that not everyone sees blood the same as we do though.

 

[Bootsctr]

That bit of reporting has been bothering me. I have no problem believing that Leonard and Bobby Jo said those things. But lie detector test are a bit more complex than that. First off, they are not a pass/fail test. Their statements seem to indicate that the purpose of the test is to establish whether a particular person is a truth-teller or a liar. First off, the reliability of such tests is questionable--depending on the state may not be admitted into evidence. Where they are useful to LE is in providing some broad notion of areas in which the witness is sufficiently uncomfortable to indicate that the information they are providing is less than the whole truth. And LE is under no obligation to share the results with the witness, in whole or in part, or even truthfully. They may press a witness on some area in which they say that the results indicate they are lying. They may tell a witness that everything looks good in order to give them a false sense of security that may lead them to drop some information that they are seeking. For instance, they may find it helpful for Leonard (or someone else) to believe that LE is dumb and therefore to keep right on talking.

Thank you for your response. RSD1200 provided me with an excellent response and link regarding how law enforcement can manipulate people with the results.

My question is when were the LDT's administered? Was it last year or just prior to the property searches? I know the powers that be can lie and tell someone they failed a lie detector test. Just a gut feeling, I think they are telling JM the truth about failing. I am even wondering if they asked him if he sent a text to JW's phone on the evening prior to the murders and he said no. Well, lo and behold, phone records come back and there is indeed a text sent from JM's phone to JW's phone. Bam! He's caught lying! On the other hand, we have a written response by JW that the text "NEVER HAPPENED." As far as I know, he has never been asked to submit to a polygraph and he would be totally in the right to refuse one. However, if that happens, LE can then say you are not cooperating. Same thing about cell phones. It is totally up to you whether you hand over your cell phone to LE or not. The minute you refuse to hand it over, they are going to say you are not cooperating and you're going to be harassed a little harder, or a lot harder.

Then we have JM's sister who has undergone three (3) polygraphs!! Ummmm, I think after the second one I would have politely refused. To me, that speaks to her honesty, or they just were not able to catch her in a lie.

I followed Tricia Todd's case in Florida. They gave her ex a lie detector test and told him he passed. He was allowed to fly back to North Carolina because he was military. However, it was only a few days before they had him back in Florida. They had a lot of CCTV footage turned in and then went back over the lie detector results and caught him in a lie when he was on CCTV walking back to the B&B where he was staying when he said he never left the B&B after getting gas for Tricia's car. LE made a deal with the devil in order to recover her remains.

It seems Len is the leaker. I keep praying that he has LE's blessing, and they are using him to catch the guilty parties. Another gut feeling, I don't think that is what is happening. It would seem a lot of what happens would hinge on the text message and its contents and what was seized during the property searches. Maybe ballistics if they got shell casings (30/30, 9 mm, ?) ? Makes me sick to my stomach to think of it.

OT: Nice new motorcycle RSD1200!

 

[Bootsctr]

Well me myself, I been kinda confused about the W's storing their belongings on a friends/associates parking lot. With the grandparents there and all the acres they own, I wonder why they didn't just ask them to keep their things? Maybe the family has had some kind of "falling out" of some kind.

:yeahthat: This is where the sniff test goes off the chart for me! :thinking:

 

[Bootsctr]

BBM

There is a huge difference between those other 41 search warrants and the search warrants for the W's. We don't know who those other 41 search warrants were served on. There was no media alert given in those warrants. No wholesale circus of 33 units of LE rolling in when they were served. No SWAT or DTF.

I makes me wonder who alerted the media on the W's search warrants. Why was it so public when every thing else in this case has been locked down tight? Why was such a big production made of it, rolling out SWAT, which would have gained attention on it's own, and also the DTF and DOC STARR team. The only thing missing on it was Gibbs and the NCIS team. It's like they wanted every LE special teams they had there to call as much attention to the searches as they could.

I personally believe it was because LE knows the W's are involved in the murders and they wanted to put public pressure on them and in general make their lives miserable by doing that hoping it might break them and gain a confession. JMO

Anyone else have a thought on why the searches of the W properties were so public when the other 41 search warrants were so silent?

Definitely a show of force! I have to think since Len was telling us about the results of the polygraphs AND the text message and the GPS device that LE felt they had enough evidence to get the property search warrants in hopes of recovering murder weapon (s), or shell casings, and/or evidence of marijuana grows.

 

[rsd1200]

Did she go there with JW or someone else?

That's what I'm curious about. Where some of the family was listed as living at the W's Bethel Hill property (which did have a heart shaped pond at one point), is less than five miles from the church. The Flying W is on the same road as the church, (it is between the Bethel Hill cutoff and the church). I've just really felt like HMR spent a lot of time with the Ws.

 

[rsd1200]

Thank you for your response. RSD1200 provided me with an excellent response and link regarding how law enforcement can manipulate people with the results.

My question is when were the LDT's administered? Was it last year or just prior to the property searches? I know the powers that be can lie and tell someone they failed a lie detector test. Just a gut feeling, I think they are telling JM the truth about failing. I am even wondering if they asked him if he sent a text to JW's phone on the evening prior to the murders and he said no. Well, lo and behold, phone records come back and there is indeed a text sent from JM's phone to JW's phone. Bam! He's caught lying! On the other hand, we have a written response by JW that the text "NEVER HAPPENED." As far as I know, he has never been asked to submit to a polygraph and he would be totally in the right to refuse one. However, if that happens, LE can then say you are not cooperating. Same thing about cell phones. It is totally up to you whether you hand over your cell phone to LE or not. The minute you refuse to hand it over, they are going to say you are not cooperating and you're going to be harassed a little harder, or a lot harder.

Then we have JM's sister who has undergone three (3) polygraphs!! Ummmm, I think after the second one I would have politely refused. To me, that speaks to her honesty, or they just were not able to catch her in a lie.

I followed Tricia Todd's case in Florida. They gave her ex a lie detector test and told him he passed. He was allowed to fly back to North Carolina because he was military. However, it was only a few days before they had him back in Florida. They had a lot of CCTV footage turned in and then went back over the lie detector results and caught him in a lie when he was on CCTV walking back to the B&B where he was staying when he said he never left the B&B after getting gas for Tricia's car. LE made a deal with the devil in order to recover her remains.

It seems Len is the leaker. I keep praying that he has LE's blessing, and they are using him to catch the guilty parties. Another gut feeling, I don't think that is what is happening. It would seem a lot of what happens would hinge on the text message and its contents and what was seized during the property searches. Maybe ballistics if they got shell casings (30/30, 9 mm, ?) ? Makes me sick to my stomach to think of it.

OT: Nice new motorcycle RSD1200!

I'm just really leery of polys. There's only five states in the United States that allow polys to be used in court (and they have conditions) Ohio is not one of those states. If the results are not allowed in court, then I'm not feeling any special need to take one. They say polys have a 70%-ish accuracy rate. Well, those aren't the greatest odds. It's kinda like the study that they did that stated around 4% of the people on death row are innocent, and if they had enough time, they could be exonerated. That 4% seems kinda small in the grand scheme of things, but if you're one of the 4%, that blows.

I think LM can't be controlled by anyone. He says, and does what he pleases, when he pleases. He's peeved. I think they do get him calmed down and then something fires him up again. He is a defense lawyers nightmare in my opinion. I think he's just an angry, heartbroken, father/grandfather who wants someone to direct his anger toward.

Either the text messages don't exist, or there wasn't squat to them. The only person who has said anything about the text messages, or AM being on the phone w/DR, has been LM (iirc). Please correct me if I'm wrong. I can't remember those two things coming from LE (nor from JM either). If there'd been anything damning in there, I believe that both men, and AM, would have to have been arrested, and under a bond that neither of the three would have been able to make.

OT: Thanks! I love the drags.

 

[rsd1200]

Definitely a show of force! I have to think since Len was telling us about the results of the polygraphs AND the text message and the GPS device that LE felt they had enough evidence to get the property search warrants in hopes of recovering murder weapon (s), or shell casings, and/or evidence of marijuana grows.

In this instance, where they had no need to tell LM a solitary thing, nor give the warrant to AM (who they gave it to, iirc), since it was a warrant for JM's truck, I do think that they shelled out some info b/c they knew it would make it out to the papers and the internet within hours. I think they bent the rules to almost breaking to get the gps deal on there and meshed the rest to get reasonable cause to get the search warrant for the W's places. It's been over a year and they'd shown Piketon nothing. There was 2,000 acres to search, and they had probably desperately wanted to search that land from the git go, and they were now seeing the Ws making very public, digital footprints toward AK, so they pushed through a search warrant, with "probable cause" between the gps, the truck, JM "failed" a poly, and a supposed text from JW, that could have been sent well before JM rec'd it due to the cell coverage in that area (if it was sent at all). I think it was their Hail Mary effort to get to search those properties before the entire family possibly moved away and the W brother's property was deeded over to the new owners. Just my thinkin'. :thinking: