OH - Pike County: 8 people from one family dead as police hunt for killer(s) - #31

[amauet1]

Could the land co-owned by the 4 Rhoden brothers be confiscated if it was proven drugs were grown on it?

 

[Betty P]

Could the land co-owned by the 4 Rhoden brothers be confiscated if it was proven drugs were grown on it?

Good question. Here's a link about civil asset forfeiture

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United_States

For MJ, it looks like local or state LE have to cooperate with the DEA or other federal LE to do civil asset forfeiture? From all outside appearances, the DEA has not been involved in investigating these murders.

Any ideas of what might be going on with this? If LE isn't working with federal agencies on this case, it might be more difficult.

Also note: No criminal charges have ever been brought WRT any MJ grow ops at the properites. Assume criminal charges haven't been brought because everyone is dead, though there doesn't seem to be any arrests of any people who might have been involved in helping the R's sell MJ.

 

[rsd1200]

Good question. Here's a link about civil asset forfeiture

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United_States

For MJ, it looks like local or state LE have to cooperate with the DEA or other federal LE to do civil asset forfeiture? From all outside appearances, the DEA has not been involved in investigating these murders.

Any ideas of what might be going on with this? If LE isn't working with federal agencies on this case, it might be more difficult.

Also note: No criminal charges have ever been brought WRT any MJ grow ops at the properites. Assume criminal charges haven't been brought because everyone is dead, though there doesn't seem to be any arrests of any people who might have been involved in helping the R's sell MJ.

This was August, 2016, and according to the AG, the gang was all there:

Attorney General Mike DeWine has also told the Cincinnati Enquirer that the FBI, U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration and U.S. Department of Homeland Security have worked with the Ohio Bureau of Criminal Investigation and other agencies on what's become a months long investigation. (1)

This is interesting too, although, we have learned, that vehicles have been returned.

Dan Tierney, a spokesman for that office, said Tuesday it is too early to discuss the future of the Rhoden land or property. "We have released the scenes. It will be up to the probate process,'' he said.

Christopher Rhoden Sr. solely owned more than eight acres as well as the three trailers, according to Pike and Scioto county court records. He was also the majority owner of another 66 acres in Pike County with his brothers. At least 45 acres of that land was inherited from his father in 2011, according to court records.

Who may inherit the parcels hinges on many unknowns to be determined both by federal and state law and judges, McKay said.(2)

Attorney General Mike DeWine has said that evidence of three marijuana grow sites were found at two of the scenes. There was also evidence of cockfighting. That could mean the government could go to court to take the land through a process known as forfeiture. The government can legally move to take any property proven to be used in a crime or been paid for with money made in criminal activity.

Tierney said Tuesday it was premature to discuss if the state of Ohio would start or even consider forfeiture proceedings: "Our focus is on the investigation, gathering the evidence necessary to identify a suspect or suspects in the case," he said. (2)

Good on Kasich, here. 1/1/2017:

Earlier this month, Ohio Governor John Kasich signed into law a bill that requires a criminal conviction before law enforcement can permanently deprive someone of personal property in a civil forfeiture state. This law makes Ohio one of only 11 states with protection in place for personal property when an individual is accused of a crime. (3)

(1) http://www.wsaz.com/content/news/Community-still-on-edge-three-months-after-murders-387985392.html

(2) https://www.cincinnati.com/story/ne...en-children-property-still-resolved/84844856/

(3) http://columbusdefenselawyer.attorn...sses-bill-protect-citizens-civil-forfeitures/

 

[Betty P]

This was August, 2016, and according to the AG, the gang was all there:



This is interesting too, although, we have learned, that vehicles have been returned.





Good on Kasich, here. 1/1/2017:


(1) http://www.wsaz.com/content/news/Community-still-on-edge-three-months-after-murders-387985392.html

(2) https://www.cincinnati.com/story/ne...en-children-property-still-resolved/84844856/

(3) http://columbusdefenselawyer.attorn...sses-bill-protect-citizens-civil-forfeitures/

Thanks, rsd1200. I knew Ohio had passed a law about civil forfeitures sometime in the recent past. I'm under the weather with the flu this morning and couldn't find it. IIRC, it was passed because of complaints from citizens opposed to the government seizing their guns. Technically, LE could seize the property if they arrested someone who was working with the R family before they were killed, but that's probably not a priority for them right now.

 

[rsd1200]

Thanks, rsd1200. I knew Ohio had passed a law about civil forfeitures sometime in the recent past. I'm under the weather with the flu this morning and couldn't find it. IIRC, it was passed because of complaints from citizens opposed to the government seizing their guns. Technically, LE could seize the property if they arrested someone who was working with the R family before they were killed, but that's probably not a priority for them right now.

Aaarghhh, sorry to hear about the flu. Bummer. Hope you feel better soon!

It isn't only about seizing firearms, it's also about seizing automobiles, property, and any cash that the person had on them, and never giving it back, even if they are not convicted of a crime, or ever even arrested. So Kasich at least raised it to $15k before they could seize anything, under civil forfeiture. This civil forfeiture stuff has really started getting out of hand.

Under state and federal law, police departments can seize and keep property that is suspected of involvement in criminal activity. Unlike criminal asset forfeiture, however, with civil forfeiture, a property owner need not be found guilty of a crime—or even charged—to permanently lose her cash, car, home, or other property. And according to a new report published by the Institute for Justice, “Policing for Profit: The Abuse of Civil Asset Forfeiture,” most state laws are written in such a way as to encourage police agents to pursue profit instead of seeking the neutral administration of justice.

I can't get the vid to play, but the "Policing For Profit" grades states. My state gets a pretty low grade.

https://www.cato.org/events/policing-profit-abuse-civil-asset-forfeiture

 

[rsd1200]

Here's more on civil forfeiture for anyone interested;

Civil Asset Forfeiture; Seven Things You Should Know

1. Civil asset forfeiture is a legal tool that allows law enforcement officials to seize property that they assert has been involved in certain criminal activity. In fact, the owner of the property doesn’t even need to be guilty of a crime: Civil asset forfeiture proceedings charge the property itself with involvement in a crime. This means that police can seize your car, home, money, or valuables without ever having to charge you with a crime. There are many, many stories of innocent people being stripped of their money and property by law enforcement.

https://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2014/03/civil-asset-forfeiture-7-things-you-should-know

 

[MizStery]

I am going to toot Betty Ps horn. She is an amazing keeper of the 'Thread Timeline' and a courageous cancer survivor. Betty P hope you feel better soon.

Thanks, rsd1200.
<snip>
I'm under the weather with the flu :flu: this morning and couldn't find it.
<ship>

 

[AdamsCounty]

Has anyone heard if there are going to be any press releases by the PCSO or the AG's office this week on the case ? Any news on anyone being Interviewed from KY in the past couple of weeks ? With the 2nd year Anniversary coming up this week,all eyes are on the media and just wondering if LE is going to have any new updates for us.

 

[amauet1]

Good question. Here's a link about civil asset forfeiture

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United_States

For MJ, it looks like local or state LE have to cooperate with the DEA or other federal LE to do civil asset forfeiture? From all outside appearances, the DEA has not been involved in investigating these murders.

Any ideas of what might be going on with this? If LE isn't working with federal agencies on this case, it might be more difficult.

Also note: No criminal charges have ever been brought WRT any MJ grow ops at the properites. Assume criminal charges haven't been brought because everyone is dead, though there doesn't seem to be any arrests of any people who might have been involved in helping the R's sell MJ.

But it seems they used this excuse to not pay for KR and CRsr's funeral (state).

 

[Dudly]

This was August, 2016, and according to the AG, the gang was all there:



This is interesting too, although, we have learned, that vehicles have been returned.





Good on Kasich, here. 1/1/2017:


(1) http://www.wsaz.com/content/news/Community-still-on-edge-three-months-after-murders-387985392.html

(2) https://www.cincinnati.com/story/ne...en-children-property-still-resolved/84844856/

(3) http://columbusdefenselawyer.attorn...sses-bill-protect-citizens-civil-forfeitures/

I knew a case where the Ohio Dept. of Liquor Control confiscated money from a bar doing a legal game of chance since it had 100% payout. It took the owner two years to get that money back. I guess they hoped he'd give up trying...

 

[amauet1]

But this is yet another screwy thing about this case. There's drugs on the land and used for sale making it criminal enough not to pay for their funerals. But there isn't enough to confiscate the land from the surviving brothers? The land has been appraised and put into Brady's name according to probate and ohio auditors site, but I didn't see TR's name on any of the parcels. I guess that's the en tel thing again. I'm confused.

 

[amauet1]

Rebecca Allen is in Scioto Co Jail drug trafficing. http://www.sciotocountycpcourt.org/

 

[Betty P]

But this is yet another screwy thing about this case. There's drugs on the land and used for sale making it criminal enough not to pay for their funerals. But there isn't enough to confiscate the land from the surviving brothers? The land has been appraised and put into Brady's name according to probate and ohio auditors site, but I didn't see TR's name on any of the parcels. I guess that's the en tel thing again. I'm confused.

The problem is that the land in question is jointly owned by the Rhoden brothers, two of whom were not involved in the MJ grow op. It would be unfair to confiscate their property when they had broken no laws. There's no need for the government to confiscate that real estate that is owned by the Rhoden family.

OTOH, the state probably has some justification to refuse payment from the Ohio Crime Victim's Compensation Fund. The money in that fund comes from the public - from Ohio taxpayers.

When it comes to MJ grow ops, right now we only have LE's word that those existed. There's been no evidence presented to the public to prove that. Not saying I don't believe them, but they need to do more to make their case to the public.

ETA: Note the law at rsd1200's link above says there has to be a conviction for drug activity to justify seizure of personal property. No one has been convicted of any violation related to the growth and sale of MJ from the Rhoden family property, probably because most of them are deceased. Seems unlikely the two surviving Rhoden brothers were involved in the MJ operation or they would have been killed as well.

 

[Betty P]

I've just been re-reading some of these articles from 2016, this one by Holly Zacharia at Columbus Dispatch about the matriarch of the family, Geneva Rhoden:

Rhoden family is tired of waiting in the dark

http://www.dispatch.com/content/sto...n-family-is-tired-of-waiting-in-the-dark.html

Then the night comes. And it changes everything. She just lies there, restless.

&#8220;Wondering, wondering, wondering. Wondering why was this done, why they took out eight lives like that,&#8221; the 73-year-old matriarch of the Rhoden family said. &#8220;You can&#8217;t shut it off. It&#8217;s always in my heart and my mind how they all got shot like that.&#8221;

She can&#8217;t say anymore. Not right yet. She sobs into the neatly-folded flowered handkerchief clenched in her trembling hand.

Investigators found marijuana growing in three locations (including an indoor operation in an old garage next to Chris Sr.&#8217;s trailer) at two of the crime scenes but have not said what, if any, connection the marijuana might have had to the killings. Authorities have offered no motive, identified no suspects and made no arrests.

&#8220;The longer it goes on with no answers, the more the family is breaking,&#8221; Michelle Rhoden said. She was married for 11 years to Brady Rhoden, another of Geneva&#8217;s sons, and they have two sons together. But once you&#8217;re in this family, you&#8217;re in. Divorce generally changes little but an address.

&#8220;You can&#8217;t stop thinking about it,&#8221; said Michelle, crying. &#8220;You&#8217;re scared half to death yourself. Nobody sleeps. Nothing is the same. I don&#8217;t feel like we&#8217;ll ever get past it.&#8221;

The surviving relatives feel as if they are under an unfair microscope, she said, constantly asked to provide investigators with answers and information but given none in return.

BBM

The family is very clear that they were fearful for their own safety after the murders, refuting those who claim they weren't. They are also resentful (rightfully so) at how little information LE has given them and at the implications that other family members are the killers. These are tight knit families. If there were a killer in their midst who wiped out 8 members of the family, they would know it. I can't blame them for feeling angry with LE at being treated as if they're keeping the killers' identities secret. I would feel the same way.

This article is from nearly 2 years ago, sad that nothing has changed.

 

[joe jones]

watched the video of the mother and sister on Youtube, they are beyond devastated and desperate or the perpertrator/s to be found, I have always thought that when the murderers are caught the motive will be personal not criminal, they took out all family members when it is probably unlikely all of them were personally involved in any of the criminal activity going on, they all probably knew about the drug growing but not all of them were actively involved, if it was just drug related then surely only the male family members (adults) would need to be killed,

and whoever did it had to have had intimate knowledge of the family, and be familiar with who lived where, when one looks at the crime scene photos of the property it is difficult to imagine anybody who did not know the family well navigating through the property and gaining access to all homes,

and am appalled at the little traction the media has given to it, and the more time goes on the less interest it seems to garner

 

[joe jones]

Does anybody know if Jake Wagner has taken his daughter to Alaska? his daughter Sophia whose mother was Hannah one of the victims, I think I read somewhere Sophia was with him on the night of the murders and he kept custody of her post the murders

 

[joe jones]

answered my own question seems the whole family including his daughter have gone

 

[Betty P]

answered my own question seems the whole family including his daughter have gone

Yes, the Wagner family, with Sophie, moved to Kenai, AK last summer. It's presumed they are all still living there. Their move sparked raids by Ohio BCI on their former farm and truck trailers in Adams Co, OH. Raid was also conducted on Jake Wagner's grandparents farm - Flying W - in nearby Rarden, OH.

 

[Bootsctr]

Justice for Rhoden/Gilley on FB asked people to stay home and light a candle.

Snipped by me:

The problem is that the land in question is jointly owned by the Rhoden brothers, two of whom were not involved in the MJ grow op. It would be unfair to confiscate their property when they had broken no laws. Seems unlikely the two surviving Rhoden brothers were involved in the MJ operation or they would have been killed as well.

I hope you are feeling better Betty P! The flu has been very, very bad last year and running into this year too.

Regarding what the Justice page is saying for remembering the victims by staying home and lighting a candle, it sounds like people are still very much in self-protection mode. And regarding the two surviving brothers, even if not involved with the grow op, I bet they are laying low and armed to the hilt. I think I would feel as if I had a big target on my back. Just feeling this is still very much unsettled whatever "it" is.

I believe LE at the beginning thought this case was just a bunch of hillbillies killing each other and that they would solve the murders within a few weeks. Well here we are almost 2 years in and they still don't have anything. I'll eat my boots :eat: if they make an arrest before or on the anniversary of the massacre. It feels like LE bungled this case on day 1. LM made sure the public knew how many times LE went back in the trailer to find Chris Jr. I don't know if I trust the article where it was reported that one of the victim's shoes was still lying in the yard after the trailers were removed, but it sure didn't shine a very good light on the investigation if it was true. The Change.org petition is trying for 1,000 signatures and they are only a little over halfway to 1,000 to bring in the FBI. I'm not sure what to think at this point. So many questions and no answers.

 

[rsd1200]

But this is yet another screwy thing about this case. There's drugs on the land and used for sale making it criminal enough not to pay for their funerals. But there isn't enough to confiscate the land from the surviving brothers? The land has been appraised and put into Brady's name according to probate and ohio auditors site, but I didn't see TR's name on any of the parcels. I guess that's the en tel thing again. I'm confused.

The only one that the Victim's Fund refused to pay out on, was CR1. Last I read, no one applied for Victim's Fund money, for KR, and GR's family has not made any applications, at least I'm not aware of any claims by GR's family. The Victims Fund paid around $40k toward DR, HMR, CR2, FR, HHG. (1)

However, they denied a claim, from DW, CR1's brother-in-law, in the amount of $4,800, to repay net wages "he lost as he dealt with the killing of his brother-in-law CR1". (2)

"Ohio Attorney General Mike DeWine said in a letter to Weisel this month that the law requires that payment be denied if there is a &#8220;preponderance of evidence&#8221; that the victim engaged in cultivating felony quantities of marijuana within 10 years of the crime that prompted the compensation claim, regardless of whether the victim was convicted." (2)

Note: as of 1/20/2017 and 4/13/2017 no one had filed an application for burial funds for CR1 (2).

(1) https://www.wcpo.com/news/crime/ohi...or-funerals-of-5-pike-county-massacre-victims

(2) http://www.news-herald.com/article/HR/20170120/NEWS/170129934