OH - Pike County: 8 people from one family dead as police hunt for killer(s) #32

[RAISINISBACK]

So who do you think was laundering money? If the speculation is that CR1 was laundering cash through his auto repair and sales business, how would that help find the killers of his family? Can we really figure out who the killers are by putting all our focus on the deceased victims?

Or were you looking at the various LLC's owned by the W family, including the W grandparents? Sorry if I misunderstood.

BBM

I was answering a question asked of me from a professional view. I don't think anyone is laundering money. I was asked what effect money laundering had on taxes and was answering it from that point of view. As I have said I have seen some creative bookkeeping in my time. I have a lot of clients who own businesses from the guy who barely ekes out a living to the one who makes millions of dollars a year. You would be surprised at who tries to cheat the IRS.

Can we really figure out who the killers are by putting all our focus on the deceased victims?

Focusing on the victims is the only way to find the killers. It is in any murder. That is the first place LE starts, by learning as much about the victim and his/her life as they can. The R's were not random victims, they were singled out. Targeted for who they were. Like it or not, someone they brought into their life ended up causing their death. So we have no choice but to focus on their lives and what their activities were when they were alive. That is not being derogatory towards the victims. We have to look at every single aspect of their lives and take all of it, the good, the bad and the ugly into consideration.

I might point out that none of us knew the victims personally so no one can really say for certain if they were saints or sinners. Most people are both. But from a sleuthing point of view we have to look at everything not just focus on the good deeds part of their lives.

And for the record I have for some time believed the W's are the best suspects we have. And yes they could have been laundering money right along with the W's. We just don't know.

JMO

 

[RAISINISBACK]

I remember back in the beginning when we were trying to get as much info we could on what businesses the Rhoden's were in. There were taxes the state of Ohio were going after from Dana. We assumed it was from her car sales. It was only around 300.00-400.00 and I couldn't understand if that was a personal car sale.(Selling a car she owned) or it was a sale made for someone else like Scioto Trading Company. How do taxes work with those types of sales?

It could possibly been from her car sales. Most probably, from that small amount, it was because she didn't have enough withheld from her paycheck and ended up owing state tax when she did her taxes. A lot of people are in that boat since most states don't have as many or as big of credits as the federal returns do.


JMO

 

[Betty P]

BBM

I was answering a question asked of me from a professional view. I don't think anyone is laundering money. I was asked what effect money laundering had on taxes and was answering it from that point of view. As I have said I have seen some creative bookkeeping in my time. I have a lot of clients who own businesses from the guy who barely ekes out a living to the one who makes millions of dollars a year. You would be surprised at who tries to cheat the IRS.

Can we really figure out who the killers are by putting all our focus on the deceased victims?

Focusing on the victims is the only way to find the killers. It is in any murder. That is the first place LE starts, by learning as much about the victim and his/her life as they can. The R's were not random victims, they were singled out. Targeted for who they were. Like it or not, someone they brought into their life ended up causing their death. So we have no choice but to focus on their lives and what their activities were when they were alive. That is not being derogatory towards the victims. We have to look at every single aspect of their lives and take all of it, the good, the bad and the ugly into consideration.

I might point out that none of us knew the victims personally so no one can really say for certain if they were saints or sinners. Most people are both. But from a sleuthing point of view we have to look at everything not just focus on the good deeds part of their lives.

And for the record I have for some time believed the W's are the best suspects we have. And yes they could have been laundering money right along with the W's. We just don't know.

JMO

Yeah, I understand all that. But we've focused on them and their immediate family members almost exclusively for the last 2 years, usually with the intention of trying to blame one of the surviving family members for the killings.

Maybe it's time to set the immediate family members aside from endless scrutiny and focus on others linked to the family. I've tried many times to research and take the focus to others that CR1 and KR may have come into contact with in their business dealings, but no one else wants to look in that direction. We've had strong hints from LE about looking at the Wagner family. It makes sense to look into their business dealings and see how they might have intersected with CR1 and others they may have been dealing with.

I'm tired of years and years of discussing in minute detail the same details about the Manley family, who might have called who that night, etc. I prefer to look at the big picture. These were murders committed by experienced people, possibly professionals (as many experts have said). The victims had allegedly had 3 grow ops in the midst of one of the most legendary and renowned areas for MJ growing in Ohio, bordering on another state (KY) legendary for it's decades of MJ cultivation and trafficking. These murders were in the midst of one of the heaviest drug trafficking areas in Ohio, renowned for 50+ years of public corruption and vice.

We've sleuthed the immediate family in great detail. It's time to look at the bigger picture.

 

[rsd1200]

Flashlight techniques by law enforcement is an interesting topic I've been reading about lately in relation to the EAR/ONS serial killer. LE suspected he was LE or former LE because of the flashlight techniques he used when attacking rape victims in their homes.

It could also tell us something about how some of the Rhoden family victims were caught by surprise and temporarily disoriented while still allowing the killers to aim and shoot with deadly accuracy. It also shows how the killers used similar tactics to move around darkened homes.

As police know, turning on lights makes you vulnerable to attack by the person you're trying to capture/disarm. You're much safer knowing how to work in the dark, tactically using a flashlight and other equipment to move around. While night vision goggles would be helpful in this situation. once you've encountered your target, if they're awake, you need flashlight tactics to immobilize and confuse them so they don't know where you are, how close, etc.

JMO, using a laser scope alone would have been ineffective without a flashlight to illuminate the victims. Killers knew there were small children in the homes and needed to locate them quickly before killing the victims, without giving the adults enough time to fight back.

http://www.bluesheepdog.com/flashlight-tactics/








More about "quick peek" techniques. Allows an attacker to quickly see where people are, but still keeps their eyes adapted to the dark.




It's an interesting topic to research and JMO, it was used in these murders. See what else you can find.

Increasingly, it makes me realize the superior skill and practice needed to use these techniques to quickly immobilize and kill so many people in 4 different crime scenes. Going in all 4 crime scenes with lights blazing would have gotten the killers shot or killed at some point.

Using only night vision goggles risked having a victim awaken to the sound of the killers moving. JMO, a flashlight was used as well in case a victim awakened and needed to be rendered confused, disoriented and unable to quickly take a shot at the killers. From the linked article, it infers that members of specialized military use a combination of these tools.

I agree with you on night vision goggles, and the very limited use of a flashlight, and the using our other senses.


What I have are not night vision goggles. I have a headlamp with three settings. It has a very easy access button on the front. This way, at least one hand is free. I do carry a flashlight sometimes, instead. I try not to use either most times. It's just according to what I'm doing.


My headlamp has three settings. One is a light that allows your eyes to adapt more quickly to the night, but it is not "night vision". I've rarely had use for the night setting though. Where I live, much like where the Rs lived, there are no street lamps, there's no sidewalks, there's not even shoulders on the road, so there's nothing to light up, really.. When it gets dark outside the city limits, it gets dark, and it gets darker the further you go into the mountains, because of there being little artificial light, and due to living in the mountains' shadows.




If I were breaking into the R homes, in the dead of night, to murder them, and I had never been in those homes, nor had I ever been familiar with at least three, of four, of the homeowner's landscapes, (DR's landscape wouldn't be too bad to navigate it appears, from the overheads), I feel that I'd most definitely need a flashlight, shone toward the ground. I don't care how much natural night vision that I'd gained, before arriving at the homes. CR1's and FR's places, are right on the road too, about 100' and 60' respectively. So, if in vehicles, (which in my theories, they were, due to speed of getting this done) they would have have to coast to a stop before passing there. Then, it would be like walking through landmines once at those two properties. KR's trailer is at least 200' off the road, and in a mostly tree'd area, with a creek-bed. Folks unfamiliar to those homes and land would need some sort of lighting, but probably not as much as at CR1's and FR's. We also noted in the beginning that the moon was full that night, so, depending on the cloud cover those early morning hours, the assailant(s) could have had that to their advantage.


I have one theory, that is in my top three, that I call my "Rogue LEO, Lookin' at Prison", theory. The LE flashlight technique would fit this category. I've been reading about that Gold State/EAR dude too. Evil incarnate. That message they played made my skin crawl. The thing with the plates too... He was able to do that all on his own as well. Staked out his victims. Zero help. Imagine what role fear could have played, to immobilize a parent, maybe even get them quietly back into bed, if they were told that their child would die, if they moved, or fought back? Not knowing some would die, even though they complied. There was a child to hold over everyone's heads, except for GR. Even KR, but I don't think they had to worry about that with him, there's still something off there. He's still the odd man out, but I have some thoughts on him.

 

[MittenScarpetta]

BBM

I was answering a question asked of me from a professional view. I don't think anyone is laundering money. I was asked what effect money laundering had on taxes and was answering it from that point of view. As I have said I have seen some creative bookkeeping in my time. I have a lot of clients who own businesses from the guy who barely ekes out a living to the one who makes millions of dollars a year. You would be surprised at who tries to cheat the IRS.

Can we really figure out who the killers are by putting all our focus on the deceased victims?

Focusing on the victims is the only way to find the killers. It is in any murder. That is the first place LE starts, by learning as much about the victim and his/her life as they can. The R's were not random victims, they were singled out. Targeted for who they were. Like it or not, someone they brought into their life ended up causing their death. So we have no choice but to focus on their lives and what their activities were when they were alive. That is not being derogatory towards the victims. We have to look at every single aspect of their lives and take all of it, the good, the bad and the ugly into consideration.

I might point out that none of us knew the victims personally so no one can really say for certain if they were saints or sinners. Most people are both. But from a sleuthing point of view we have to look at everything not just focus on the good deeds part of their lives.

And for the record I have for some time believed the W's are the best suspects we have. And yes they could have been laundering money right along with the W's. We just don't know.

JMO

BBM. I think it’s just a matter of time. I’m tempted to create a list of their inconsistencies because there’s a lot. I’m not sure it was just over custody though. I don’t know but innocent people don’t usually build brand new barns and then 6 weeks later start selling off their animals, to move 4000 miles away in the months to come.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

I remember back in the beginning when we were trying to get as much info we could on what businesses the Rhoden's were in. There were taxes the state of Ohio were going after from Dana. We assumed it was from her car sales. It was only around 300.00-400.00 and I couldn't understand if that was a personal car sale.(Selling a car she owned) or it was a sale made for someone else like Scioto Trading Company. How do taxes work with those types of sales?

BBM

I realize I didn't answer your question in my other post amauet1. If it is your own cars you are selling then you add up all your sales ( this is called gross income), then you count your inventory ( the amount of cars you have left) since in car sales they don't always sell a car in the same year they bought it. Then from beginning inventory (the cars you have left from the prior year) you minus out purchases (the cars you bought in the current year) then enter your ending inventory ( the cars you have left) and that gives you your COGS ( cost of goods sold). From there you report your other expenses to arrive at you profit or loss (net sales) on the business.

If they sold cars that belonged to someone else and received money for it they would report that as commissions on a schedule C (self employment income). They would then take out the expenses of the sale (such as advertising the car).

This is only a simplified version of tax reporting for car sales meant to depict a person selling only a few cars a year since some car dealers makes millions in sales a year if the are a huge car lot.

JMO

 

[Betty P]

It could possibly been from her car sales. Most probably, from that small amount, it was because she didn't have enough withheld from her paycheck and ended up owing state tax when she did her taxes. A lot of people are in that boat since most states don't have as many or as big of credits as the federal returns do.


JMO

Why would someone plan, rehearse and carry out the execution of 8 family members in 4 different homes over a few hundred dollars in used car sales? LE checked all the cars, none were stolen. If cars were part of the reason to take the huge risk of killing all these people, who would have done that? Who would have the resources to put such a radical plan in place, a plan that was executed so well that LE are stumped 2 years later? What would these people have been doing with these cars? Were they people involved in the sale of them? Where did they buy the cars? Was there some kind of criminal element the Rhodens came in contact with when they purchased these cars? What local criminal (possibly organized) activity was going on in the areas where they purchased these cars? Did it involve the people who bought the cars later from the Rhodens? Could they have been selling them to someone who was using them to traffick MJ or other drugs? Who are the known criminal groups who engage in this kind of activity in Ohio and the US? Who might their connections be in the Pike County area?

Remember the people associated with Chilly Loco had members who regularly drove to Mexico, Arizona and California for drug trafficking. There was a recent question about unusually large amount of mileage on the red truck owned by JM, mileage put on by the previous owner of the truck. Could that previous owner have used the truck to run drugs? Were any of the cars DR sold later used for that purpose? Seems unlikely she would have been aware of it since she was posting them for sale on social media.

 

[MittenScarpetta]

I agree with you on night vision goggles, and the very limited use of a flashlight, and the using our other senses.


What I have are not night vision goggles. I have a headlamp with three settings. It has a very easy access button on the front. This way, at least one hand is free. I do carry a flashlight sometimes, instead. I try not to use either most times. It's just according to what I'm doing.


My headlamp has three settings. One is a light that allows your eyes to adapt more quickly to the night, but it is not "night vision". I've rarely had use for the night setting though. Where I live, much like where the Rs lived, there are no street lamps, there's no sidewalks, there's not even shoulders on the road, so there's nothing to light up, really.. When it gets dark outside the city limits, it gets dark, and it gets darker the further you go into the mountains, because of there being little artificial light, and due to living in the mountains' shadows.




If I were breaking into the R homes, in the dead of night, to murder them, and I had never been in those homes, nor had I ever been familiar with at least three, of four, of the homeowner's landscapes, (DR's landscape wouldn't be too bad to navigate it appears, from the overheads), I feel that I'd most definitely need a flashlight, shone toward the ground. I don't care how much natural night vision that I'd gained, before arriving at the homes. CR1's and FR's places, are right on the road too, about 100' and 60' respectively. So, if in vehicles, (which in my theories, they were, due to speed of getting this done) they would have have to coast to a stop before passing there. Then, it would be like walking through landmines once at those two properties. KR's trailer is at least 200' off the road, and in a mostly tree'd area, with a creek-bed. Folks unfamiliar to those homes and land would need some sort of lighting, but probably not as much as at CR1's and FR's. We also noted in the beginning that the moon was full that night, so, depending on the cloud cover those early morning hours, the assailant(s) could have had that to their advantage.


I have one theory, that is in my top three, that I call my "Rogue LEO, Lookin' at Prison", theory. The LE flashlight technique would fit this category. I've been reading about that Gold State/EAR dude too. Evil incarnate. That message they played made my skin crawl. The thing with the plates too... He was able to do that all on his own as well. Staked out his victims. Zero help. Imagine what role fear could have played, to immobilize a parent, maybe even get them quietly back into bed, if they were told that their child would die, if they moved, or fought back? Not knowing some would die, even though they complied. There was a child to hold over everyone's heads, except for GR. Even KR, but I don't think they had to worry about that with him, there's still something off there. He's still the odd man out, but I have some thoughts on him.

Curious to hear your thoughts on KR. He’s always been the one who doesn’t quite fit into any of my own theories.

 

[Betty P]

BBM. I think it’s just a matter of time. I’m tempted to create a list of their inconsistencies because there’s a lot. I’m not sure it was just over custody though. I don’t know but innocent people don’t usually build brand new barns and then 6 weeks later start selling off their animals, to move 4000 miles away in the months to come.

What were they involved in that escalated the situation with the Rhodens to such a dangerous level? Who, among those the W's did business with would have become so upset that they had to arrange the killing of 8 family members to send a big message to the locals and LE? Were the persons who carried out or arranged the killings unaware that it would create such a media firestorm? For those who think the W's did it on their own (local hillbilly theory) were they unaware how much publicity and LE scrutiny it would bring down on them and their community?

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Aren’t Church’s exempt from taxes?



https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1828.pdf

If they have filed a 501C for non profit and kept up with filing the proper forms every year. If they have not the the IRS revokes their exempt status.

 

[rsd1200]

His "I reckon" has always stuck out to me too, as soon as I heard it and can't shake it. Wonder if the Wagner's have had to evacuate their new Alaskan digs, there is volcano evacuations.

I will say this, some female out there trusts that family enough to become JW's fiance. I don't know if they did this or not, but, I'll also so this; there's enough suspicion in me, that they had something to do with this, that I feel a bit concerned for whoever that female is, especially if she has a child w/JW, and then leaves him. All just theorizing on a marriage and child that may never come to fruition.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Why would someone plan, rehearse and carry out the execution of 8 family members in 4 different homes over a few hundred dollars in used car sales? LE checked all the cars, none were stolen. If cars were part of the reason to take the huge risk of killing all these people, who would have done that? Who would have the resources to put such a radical plan in place, a plan that was executed so well that LE are stumped 2 years later? What would these people have been doing with these cars? Were they people involved in the sale of them? Where did they buy the cars? Was there some kind of criminal element the Rhodens came in contact with when they purchased these cars? What local criminal (possibly organized) activity was going on in the areas where they purchased these cars? Did it involve the people who bought the cars later from the Rhodens? Could they have been selling them to someone who was using them to traffick MJ or other drugs? Who are the known criminal groups who engage in this kind of activity in Ohio and the US? Who might their connections be in the Pike County area?

Remember the people associated with Chilly Loco had members who regularly drove to Mexico, Arizona and California for drug trafficking. There was a recent question about unusually large amount of mileage on the red truck owned by JM, mileage put on by the previous owner of the truck. Could that previous owner have used the truck to run drugs? Were any of the cars DR sold later used for that purpose? Seems unlikely she would have been aware of it since she was posting them for sale on social media.

Anything is possible. But once again I was just answering a question asked from a professional point of view. Someone asked about 3 or 400.00 that the state of Ohio was trying to collect from DR. As I said it could have been sales tax from selling a car but with that small of an amount it was probably state tax she owned from filing her return because she didn't have enough state withheld from her paycheck.

Nothing wrong with that since millions of people end up owing state tax every year because they didn't have enough withheld.

JMO

 

[Becky Starkey]

Yeah, I understand all that. But we've focused on them and their immediate family members almost exclusively for the last 2 years, usually with the intention of trying to blame one of the surviving family members for the killings.

Maybe it's time to set the immediate family members aside from endless scrutiny and focus on others linked to the family. I've tried many times to research and take the focus to others that CR1 and KR may have come into contact with in their business dealings, but no one else wants to look in that direction. We've had strong hints from LE about looking at the Wagner family. It makes sense to look into their business dealings and see how they might have intersected with CR1 and others they may have been dealing with.

I'm tired of years and years of discussing in minute detail the same details about the Manley family, who might have called who that night, etc. I prefer to look at the big picture. These were murders committed by experienced people, possibly professionals (as many experts have said). The victims had allegedly had 3 grow ops in the midst of one of the most legendary and renowned areas for MJ growing in Ohio, bordering on another state (KY) legendary for it's decades of MJ cultivation and trafficking. These murders were in the midst of one of the heaviest drug trafficking areas in Ohio, renowned for 50+ years of public corruption and vice.

We've sleuthed the immediate family in great detail. It's time to look at the bigger picture.

I've been here since day one of this case. Never once do I ever remember anyone intentionally trying to blame the Manley's (I'm presuming they are who you are talking about). They are scrutinized because they lived right there, they are family, they found the bodies, some times don't add up, etc. Maybe you need a break from this case because they will continue to be discussed in as much detail as possible until there are convictions. The business dealings have been dealt with as much as possible without going against tos. I can't speak for others but I, and I would think everyone else, have been and do look at the bigger picture. These are all ways cases are solved.

 

[Betty P]

I agree with you on night vision goggles, and the very limited use of a flashlight, and the using our other senses.


What I have are not night vision goggles. I have a headlamp with three settings. It has a very easy access button on the front. This way, at least one hand is free. I do carry a flashlight sometimes, instead. I try not to use either most times. It's just according to what I'm doing.


My headlamp has three settings. One is a light that allows your eyes to adapt more quickly to the night, but it is not "night vision". I've rarely had use for the night setting though. Where I live, much like where the Rs lived, there are no street lamps, there's no sidewalks, there's not even shoulders on the road, so there's nothing to light up, really.. When it gets dark outside the city limits, it gets dark, and it gets darker the further you go into the mountains, because of there being little artificial light, and due to living in the mountains' shadows.




If I were breaking into the R homes, in the dead of night, to murder them, and I had never been in those homes, nor had I ever been familiar with at least three, of four, of the homeowner's landscapes, (DR's landscape wouldn't be too bad to navigate it appears, from the overheads), I feel that I'd most definitely need a flashlight, shone toward the ground. I don't care how much natural night vision that I'd gained, before arriving at the homes. CR1's and FR's places, are right on the road too, about 100' and 60' respectively. So, if in vehicles, (which in my theories, they were, due to speed of getting this done) they would have have to coast to a stop before passing there. Then, it would be like walking through landmines once at those two properties. KR's trailer is at least 200' off the road, and in a mostly tree'd area, with a creek-bed. Folks unfamiliar to those homes and land would need some sort of lighting, but probably not as much as at CR1's and FR's. We also noted in the beginning that the moon was full that night, so, depending on the cloud cover those early morning hours, the assailant(s) could have had that to their advantage.


I have one theory, that is in my top three, that I call my "Rogue LEO, Lookin' at Prison", theory. The LE flashlight technique would fit this category. I've been reading about that Gold State/EAR dude too. Evil incarnate. That message they played made my skin crawl. The thing with the plates too... He was able to do that all on his own as well. Staked out his victims. Zero help. Imagine what role fear could have played, to immobilize a parent, maybe even get them quietly back into bed, if they were told that their child would die, if they moved, or fought back? Not knowing some would die, even though they complied. There was a child to hold over everyone's heads, except for GR. Even KR, but I don't think they had to worry about that with him, there's still something off there. He's still the odd man out, but I have some thoughts on him.

Yes, there were so many things about GSK, as an active and former LEO, and his tactics that made so much sense in how he committed his crimes while escaping detection. As Det. Hole said - so much of what GSK did when surprising and controlling victims was right out of police academy training. He knew how to use the flashlights to keep them from seeing him. Same with how he left no evidence, knew how to break into homes and had pre-planned escape routes that allowed him to elude LE and their dogs. All things he learned at the police academy.

In considering LE or former LE, I'm keeping an open mind. It wouldn't necessarily be anyone from Pike County, or even from Ohio. I do lean towards it being someone from the general region because the same academy-style tactics & MO were used in other murders in the area:

People involved in or knowing about drug trafficking

Victims recently suspected of working with LE

Victims attacked in their homes in the dark, while asleep, late at night

Killer(s) experienced at surveillance and breaking into homes without rousing victims, comfortable moving around in the dark, escaping and leaving little evidence and taking security cams with them

WRT KR and gun/flashlight tactics - he sadly would have been rather easy because the camper he lived in was pretty small. It was easy to surveil and to figure out where he would be sleeping. Very short distance from the doorway to KR's bed. He probably woke up, sat up, was blinded by flashlight and shot. JMO, I always thought it happened pretty quickly.

 

[Betty P]

Anything is possible. But once again I was just answering a question asked from a professional point of view. Someone asked about 3 or 400.00 that the state of Ohio was trying to collect from DR. As I said it could have been sales tax from selling a car but with that small of an amount it was probably state tax she owned from filing her return because she didn't have enough state withheld from her paycheck.

Nothing wrong with that since millions of people end up owing state tax every year because they didn't have enough withheld.

JMO

My apologies. I thought it was a discussion about something having to do with the killers of the Rhodens, someone they might have known in their business dealings.

 

[Becky Starkey]

I will say this, some female out there trusts that family enough to become JW's fiance. I don't know if they did this or not, but, I'll also so this; there's enough suspicion in me, that they had something to do with this, that I feel a bit concerned for whoever that female is, especially if she has a child w/JW, and then leaves him. All just theorizing on a marriage and child that may never come to fruition.

I feel for the girl that gave up her child to them. Maybe she did it on her own, but I'd bet good money she was coerced or intimidated.

 

[Betty P]

I’ve never seen something so bizarre in my life. It’s all just WEIRD. The poster of those pics lists themselves as a “gardener” on fb and also lists a military career.

It is strange, really. Does it seem like there's really a legitimate business at that location? The house itself doesn't seem very large. Wouldn't they need some kind of licensing to care for patients there? A doctor who came by to visit? A registered nurse?

The church in the other building seems odd, too. It doesn't seem to mention a pastor or name of the church. Need to do more digging. Last year, I thought these were just references to old businesses that didn't exist any more, but it seems they're still active.

To those just joining in, these are businesses owned by FW, the grandmother of JW. They're located on property owned by the family, just a short distance away from Flying W Farms.

I was also wondering if having a business for storing or selling "survivalist" food would be a good front for an underground grow op?

Did their pastor, Kelly Cinereski ever use this building to preach sermons when he lived in Ohio?

https://www.daytondailynews.com/new...ttended-church-sunday/06QvCpPXYWyecVs4UY9anM/

Kelly Cinereski, pastor at Resurrection Bay Baptist Church in Seward, Alaska, told the Daily News the Wagner family attended his son’s church Sunday a couple hours west in Kenai. The pastor has not seen them personally during their latest trip to the state, but said the family brought trailers.

Cinereski said he believes the Wagners are moving to the area — located a winding three-hour trip southwest of Anchorage — something they have been planning to do much of the decade-plus he has known them since he headed a church in Minford, Ohio. Over the past 11 years, the Wagners have come up three times to visit and fish.

Minford,OH isn't too far away from Crystal Springs Home, Inc. He may have driven up there to preach for them at their own church. If not him, who does preach there? Are these some kind of private services, as the church doesn't seem to advertise anything.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Min...efd741ef7b0c67!2m2!1d-83.1095214!2d38.9932905

 

[Becky Starkey]

Yes, there were so many things about GSK, as an active and former LEO, and his tactics that made so much sense in how he committed his crimes while escaping detection. As Det. Hole said - so much of what GSK did when surprising and controlling victims was right out of police academy training. He knew how to use the flashlights to keep them from seeing him. Same with how he left no evidence, knew how to break into homes and had pre-planned escape routes that allowed him to elude LE and their dogs. All things he learned at the police academy.

In considering LE or former LE, I'm keeping an open mind. It wouldn't necessarily be anyone from Pike County, or even from Ohio. I do lean towards it being someone from the general region because the same academy-style tactics & MO were used in other murders in the area:

People involved in or knowing about drug trafficking

Victims recently suspected of working with LE

Victims attacked in their homes in the dark, while asleep, late at night

Killer(s) experienced at surveillance and breaking into homes without rousing victims, comfortable moving around in the dark, escaping and leaving little evidence and taking security cams with them

WRT KR and gun/flashlight tactics - he sadly would have been rather easy because the camper he lived in was pretty small. It was easy to surveil and to figure out where he would be sleeping. Very short distance from the doorway to KR's bed. He probably woke up, sat up, was blinded by flashlight and shot. JMO, I always thought it happened pretty quickly.

I've been thinking lately, especially after studying the timline, that this happened much faster than I had originally been thinking.

 

[MittenScarpetta]

It is strange, really. Does it seem like there's really a legitimate business at that location? The house itself doesn't seem very large. Wouldn't they need some kind of licensing to care for patients there? A doctor who came by to visit? A registered nurse?

The church in the other building seems odd, too. It doesn't seem to mention a pastor or name of the church. Need to do more digging. Last year, I thought these were just references to old businesses that didn't exist any more, but it seems they're still active.

To those just joining in, these are businesses owned by FW, the grandmother of JW. They're located on property owned by the family, just a short distance away from Flying W Farms.

I was also wondering if having a business for storing or selling "survivalist" food would be a good front for an underground grow op?

In regards to the house, I don’t believe a dr or nurse needs to visit a group home. IF it is a true group home, group home habitants are physically driven to doctors appointments. A group home is very different from a nursing home. Typically, group homes have 3 or 4 individuals living in one house that need 24 hour assistance and not full care. My best friend worked at a group home years ago. A group home is literally ran like a normal household, minus private caretakers rotating shifts. Comparable to an older child needing a babysitter.

The church. Ahhh the church. I believe that church could be used by an off gridder who is Native American or at Least follows the Native American religious cultures- to an extent. This person would live close by and would be close friends with the W’s, enjoying hunting with them (before they moved of course). I would guess as close by as Williams road in Piketon, IMO. My thoughts on the church are all hypothetical of course. I wonder if they’ve ever had EASTER service there?

These businesses are still very active, it seems. I may have to inquire about that group home for my aunt and see what they have to offer as far as care, who operates the place and if they have any openings.

 

[MittenScarpetta]

I've been thinking lately, especially after studying the timline, that this happened much faster than I had originally been thinking.

I think so too. Actually, it had to happen pretty quick because the 4 men who were murdered didn’t have enough time to get their own guns and defend themselves.

Personally, I think all of their doors were unlocked, which is common practice in small, rural towns. I don’t think the killer(s) had to break in or even knock to get in. Actually, I think they were welcomed in to Chris Sr.’s house.