OH - Pike County: 8 people from one family dead as police hunt for killer(s) #32

[rsd1200]

If that land is in a trust there is the possibility that little SW could stand to inherit more land than that from her mothers side of the family.

JMO

Well, her grandfather may inherit land, and it will then go down the line, but, there's land that's in the trust, and LLCs, too, and being sold under what appears to be their own realty company, there may not be any land left to inherit when it gets to her. I think the Elders may be doing this to keep the Flying W alive. Just a theory. Horses are expensive.

 

[amauet1]

Wow!!

sorry , but can someone break all that done to this simpleton?

 

[amauet1]

If that land is in a trust there is the possibility that little SW could stand to inherit more land than that from her mothers side of the family.

JMO

I don't know if Peterson rd property was in a trust, I was talking about George and Frediricka's land was in a trust. The elder Wagners.

 

[MittenScarpetta]

sorry , but can someone break all that done to this simpleton?

I was just shocked to see the dollar amount in that article was the same exact amount that’s confusing us about the 2nd parcel on Peterson road. $35,000. And then reading how it works. I never knew that could be done. I’m sorry, I should have specified, I was working and typed a quick response LOL

Let me try to break it down. I have to reread it again.

 

[MittenScarpetta]

sorry , but can someone break all that done to this simpleton?

Okay, let me give this my best shot. Land trusts only have statutes in 7 states. Ohio is not one of those states, which makes it not only easier to do but also easier to do things in an immoral manner.

Land trusts are used a couple ways.
1) to transfer property with a lien aka mortgage, loan, etc and essentially avoiding taxes.

2) Land trusts are used to hold property. When a person transfers a regular deed, the risk of the lender finding out is significant. If a lender sees a deed transfer on a property, they will demand the loan paid off. In the 7 states that there are statues for this, an owner could not transfer the deed to an LLC because an LLC is not exempt from a lender from demanding the loan paid.

However, Ohio doesn’t have a statute on that.

So hypothetically speaking, if two friends decided to invest in a piece of property together, each having 50% interest in the property, they could put that property in a land trust under an LLC name (aka hide the asset)

Another thing of interest is when a person(s) does a land trust, there are trustees listed and a beneficiary. The beneficiaries are the most important part because they can sell the land without the other persons consent (if both people aren’t listed as beneficiaries) unless it’s stated in the trust agreement that the beneficiary only has consent with approval from the trustees.

In other words, if it’s not done correctly between the parties involved, one person can sell the property, walk away with all the $$$ and there’s nothing the other party can do about it.

3) A trustees name does not have to be on the actual deed. There can be a land trust in place with another party besides the persons on the loan.

4) Land trusts are not public record. Sale price and transfer information isn’t something that will be found on property records for the property if you look at land records. So while a land trust may exist, the only people who know about it are the ones involved.

And finally, (really I could go on because there’s more interesting things such as using them to protect your assets if you have rental property) the article states this:

Finally, there are some arguments that land trusts enable fraud. Apart from the possibility that masking the ownership of a property will lead to masking criminal behavior, there’s also the issue of the timing of transfers. A court could find that if a land trust was set up with intent to commit fraud, it is invalid, and that the property is therefore available to creditors.
The main advantage of a land trust, and the main reason to set one up, goes back to the title of this chapter: You want to look like you qualify for food stamps

It’s possible that this could come into play when looking at certain LLC’s surrounding this case, both on behalf of CRsr and BW/AW. I don’t know if it does, but anything is possible. JMO.

And this is how I believe it could apply to Peterson road, IMO, because more than one person purchased the property thus dual interest in profit.

Most attorneys would likely recommend a LLC but this would not address James’s issue with the due on sale clause because a transfer of encumbered property into a LLC is not exempt from a lender accelerating the note. The solution for Kevin and James is a properly drafted land trust wherein Kevin and James will each own 50% of the trust i.e., trust beneficial interests. The trust could be drafted so the first $35,000 received from the sale of the house will be allocated to James and all remaining proceeds will be split equally between the parties. The bank will not discover James transferred 50% of his ownership to Kevin via the trust because only the deed transferring the property into the trust is recorded. Thus, both Kevin and James are able to move forward with their investing having solved their initial impediments to making money in real estate.

Thank you RSD for your research on land trusts and providing this link earlier (that I’m using again [emoji846])

https://andersonadvisors.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Pros-and-Cons-of-Land-Trust.pdf

 

[rsd1200]

I don't know if Peterson rd property was in a trust, I was talking about George and Frediricka's land was in a trust. The elder Wagners.

I don't think that the Peterson property was setup like that. However, on S's maternal side, because, from what I can understand, in combing through some of this, she will be sharing her portion of land, with her 1/2 sis, and two baby cousins (FR's kids), so she may end up with more land, than any of the other R family. Again, just what I've understood, CR1 had controlling interest in the et. al. plus, he had land that was only his (such as the land that DR was living on, which was eight acres, just there, and it wasn't shared with his brothers, at all).

He could have forced a sale of the shared property, and, if his brothers wanted to keep hold of the land, they'd have to come up with the money to buy him out. They could have forced a sale too, but, if they had a smaller interest, it's likely that CR1 could have bought them out.

 

[rsd1200]

Okay, let me give this my best shot. Land trusts only have statutes in 7 states. Ohio is not one of those states, which makes it not only easier to do but also easier to do things in an immoral manner.

Land trusts are used a couple ways.
1) to transfer property with a lien aka mortgage, loan, etc and essentially avoiding taxes.

2) Land trusts are used to hold property. When a person transfers a regular deed, the risk of the lender finding out is significant. If a lender sees a deed transfer on a property, they will demand the loan paid off. In the 7 states that there are statues for this, an owner could not transfer the deed to an LLC because an LLC is not exempt from a lender from demanding the loan paid.

However, Ohio doesn’t have a statute on that.

So hypothetically speaking, if two friends decided to invest in a piece of property together, each having 50% interest in the property, they could put that property in a land trust under an LLC name (aka hide the asset)

Another thing of interest is when a person(s) does a land trust, there are trustees listed and a beneficiary. The beneficiaries are the most important part because they can sell the land without the other persons consent (if both people aren’t listed as beneficiaries) unless it’s stated in the trust agreement that the beneficiary only has consent with approval from the trustees.

In other words, if it’s not done correctly between the parties involved, one person can sell the property, walk away with all the $$$ and there’s nothing the other party can do about it.

3) A trustees name does not have to be on the actual deed. There can be a land trust in place with another party besides the persons on the loan.

4) Land trusts are not public record. Sale price and transfer information isn’t something that will be found on property records for the property if you look at land records. So while a land trust may exist, the only people who know about it are the ones involved.

And finally, (really I could go on because there’s more interesting things such as using them to protect your assets if you have rental property) the article states this:



It’s possible that this could come into play when looking at certain LLC’s surrounding this case, both on behalf of CRsr and BW/AW. I don’t know if it does, but anything is possible. JMO.

And this is how I believe it could apply to Peterson road, IMO, because more than one person purchased the property thus dual interest in profit.



Thank you RSD for your research on land trusts and providing this link earlier (that I’m using again [emoji846])

https://andersonadvisors.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Pros-and-Cons-of-Land-Trust.pdf

Thank you, Mitten, for the breakdown! It's very interesting, but, there's some mental gymnastics to the whole thing. The other fella, I think it was amauet1, who mentioned him earlier, is a name that I've seen pop up now and again, over the course of the past two years. Maybe the two farms are using the same legal eagles.

 

[MittenScarpetta]

Thank you, Mitten, for the breakdown! It's very interesting, but, there's some mental gymnastics to the whole thing. The other fella, I think it was amauet1, who mentioned him earlier, is a name that I've seen pop up now and again, over the course of the past two years. Maybe the two farms are using the same legal eagles.

I’m still digging trying to figure that name out lol

It’s interesting that land trusts only have statutes in 7 states. I couldn’t believe that someone could transfer a liened deeded property into a trust because essentially if a person was to go into foreclosure the banks hands are tied until they can work through all the red tape. And well with little knowledge from lawyers in the the other 43 states, it appears these types of trusts could create a legal nightmare, if put in place by someone with the wrong intentions.

Also, in regards to SW and the possibility of her inheritance of land, I pray that a conservatorship would be put in place to protect her financial interest, since she is a minor. Not because I think anyone would take advantage of her inheritance but because people in general do unfortunate things in the name of greed...

Another thing that came to mind, knowing that a lot of the land (if not all) owned by CRsr, is most likely still tied up in probate, is the property taxes. I’m curious if those have been paid and kept current by family members so the property is not lost to the county for unpaid taxes.

 

[rsd1200]

I’m still digging trying to figure that name out lol

It’s interesting that land trusts only have statutes in 7 states. I couldn’t believe that someone could transfer a liened deeded property into a trust because essentially if a person was to go into foreclosure the banks hands are tied until they can work through all the red tape. And well with little knowledge from lawyers in the the other 43 states, it appears these types of trusts could create a legal nightmare, if put in place by someone with the wrong intentions.

Also, in regards to SW and the possibility of her inheritance of land, I pray that a conservatorship would be put in place to protect her financial interest, since she is a minor. Not because I think anyone would take advantage of her inheritance but because people in general do unfortunate things in the name of greed...

Another thing that came to mind, knowing that a lot of the land (if not all) owned by CRsr, is most likely still tied up in probate, is the property taxes. I’m curious if those have been paid and kept current by family members so the property is not lost to the county for unpaid taxes.

I am not seeing any unpaid property taxes. I have a feeling that the et. al. land may be the holdup, but, interestingly enough,I'm not seeing anyone over CR1's individual holdings in Scioto county. Also, CR1 seems to be the majority landholder in the et. al. as he'd been acquiring land, it appears, on delinquent tax sales. He was pretty good at putting land together. So, this leads me to believe that it may be some internal conflict too, as, iirc, another poster said that there were more than just KR2. and her sibs, standing in line for KR's part.

CR1, seems to have been pretty savvy. A wheel and deal kinda guy (we don't know much about him but it seems that way), and was doing pretty good. He misjudged someone.

 

[molly1255]

Very interesting discussion on land trusts! I have to admit, when I first saw there was a trust, my thoughts went to a possibility of a dynasty trust (generation-skipping), which is used for multiples purposes and because there are tax advantages.

I know several people who have significant assets who have set up dynasty trusts that allow for their children to inherit an income from the assets of the estate and their grandchildren are ultimately the beneficiaries of the estate.

It is also a good way for the owner of the assets to make sure that a child or children of theirs doesn't fall heir to a huge inheritance, particularly when that child or children are spend thrifts and/or have just failed to launch (lazy).

 

[MittenScarpetta]

Very interesting discussion on land trusts! I have to admit, when I first saw there was a trust, my thoughts went to a possibility of a dynasty trust (generation-skipping), which is used for multiples purposes and because there are tax advantages.

I know several people who have significant assets who have set up dynasty trusts that allow for their children to inherit an income from the assets of the estate and their grandchildren are ultimately the beneficiaries of the estate.

It is also a good way for the owner of the assets to make sure that a child or children of theirs doesn't fall heir to a huge inheritance, particularly when that child or children are spend thrifts and/or have just failed to launch (lazy).

This reminds me of the show Dynasty and ironically, IMO I think it’s very fitting (the show, not dynasty trusts) for the overall situation(s) between the Rhoden’s and W’s...

 

[MittenScarpetta]

I am not seeing any unpaid property taxes. I have a feeling that the et. al. land may be the holdup, but, interestingly enough,I'm not seeing anyone over CR1's individual holdings in Scioto county. Also, CR1 seems to be the majority landholder in the et. al. as he'd been acquiring land, it appears, on delinquent tax sales. He was pretty good at putting land together. So, this leads me to believe that it may be some internal conflict too, as, iirc, another poster said that there were more than just KR2. and her sibs, standing in line for KR's part.

CR1, seems to have been pretty savvy. A wheel and deal kinda guy (we don't know much about him but it seems that way), and was doing pretty good. He misjudged someone.

I agree that the et al is probably playing a part in holding up CRsr’s estate. As far as the rest, even though others besides children are seeking interest, it seems it should really be cut and dry. The others seeking interest really shouldn’t stand a chance next to children and grandchildren.

I know you all have discussed the estates extensively, so please forgive me for not remembering, but has anyone filed on SW’s behalf (since she’s a minor) for her interest in her mothers, CRsr & DR’s estates? She’s technically entitled to part CRjr’s as well but since he was a minor, his estate won’t have much but personal possessions.

 

[molly1255]

lol - a dynasty trust might fit the situation the elder W's may have struggled with, however, I don't think they can skip two generations.

 

[Betty P]

I've been away a few days, but you've all done some good researching. A couple things while I'm still catching up:

A check of the Pike County probation records will show that Tony Rhoden has been taking care of the estates for CR1 and deceased children. LM had been handling probate for DR.

When looking at totals, it appears The extended W family has more assets than CR1. To find the killers it seems more logical to focus more on the higher asset folks than the ones who had few cash assets and income than the cash - poor victims.

One of the possibilities we discussed here last summer was (hypothetically) whether land contracts with tenants could be a means of hiding "revenue sharing" from the possibly illegal business income generated at properties under contract. Could the various land trusts of some parties be a means of protecting assets from forfeiture or seizure due to illegal activities? Lots of things to consider.

 

[amauet1]

Mitten, go to Pike Co Ohio Probate/juvenial court and type in Rhoden. All the Rhoden's and other's trying to get the estate's are named. As far as I know, CRjr, FR and HMR's estate's have been taken care of. Each had a 25,000.00 insurance policy that I assume their mother Dana had gotten for them when they were children (since it's cheaper then). Tony Rhoden is their admin/executor. CRsr's, FR's.HMR's and CRjr. I think in an article from the first year, that Tony was taking care of the property that Dana was living at because it was owned by CRsr. Since that property 3122 UHR had just been purchased, I've wondered if the insurance that you usually have to carry on a new home/loan, will pay for that place? That person I was talking about is Sk*d Mon-g*m*ry if that helps.
On the property that the Rhoden children inherited from there father Clarence. Clarence died in 2008, His property was split between his eight live children. Each got 1/8 interest in his land. By 2011 all the daughter's transferred their 1/8 to CRsr. I don't know if that went in the the other brother's names, because it doesn't show it or mention them. Perhaps this is how he got controlling interest in the land? 4 daughter's and 5 son's but one son died in his early teens (Steven). So each brother owned 1/4 of the shared land. The 4 brothers purchased 6 acres in Camp Creek Twp on Dec 2, 2010 from National Bank of Waverly Ohio. It was a foreclosure. It cost 5,000.00 and the address is 1084 Left Fork Rd, Ottway, Ohio.
On May 9, 2009 CRsr buys from Mararet Farmer for 1.00 1.906 acres on Camp Creek Rd. I wonder if this is the property that BJM had/has her trailer on. And if it was bought as a thank you or for services rendered for taking care of Clarence?
I didn't notice that the brothers bought any more property together after the 6 acres on Left Fork Rd, I didn't see anymore.
One of my questions is why is Tony Rhoden living on BBL property when he co- owned property with his brother's. Surely CRsr wasn't using all the property that his father left his children to grow mj on?

 

[Betty P]

Mitten, go to Pike Co Ohio Probate/juvenial court and type in Rhoden. All the Rhoden's and other's trying to get the estate's are named. As far as I know, CRjr, FR and HMR's estate's have been taken care of. Each had a 25,000.00 insurance policy that I assume their mother Dana had gotten for them when they were children (since it's cheaper then). Tony Rhoden is their admin/executor. CRsr's, FR's.HMR's and CRjr. I think in an article from the first year, that Tony was taking care of the property that Dana was living at because it was owned by CRsr. Since that property 3122 UHR had just been purchased, I've wondered if the insurance that you usually have to carry on a new home/loan, will pay for that place? That person I was talking about is Sk*d Mon-g*m*ry if that helps.
On the property that the Rhoden children inherited from there father Clarence. Clarence died in 2008, His property was split between his eight live children. Each got 1/8 interest in his land. By 2011 all the daughter's transferred their 1/8 to CRsr. I don't know if that went in the the other brother's names, because it doesn't show it or mention them. Perhaps this is how he got controlling interest in the land? 4 daughter's and 5 son's but one son died in his early teens (Steven). So each brother owned 1/4 of the shared land. The 4 brothers purchased 6 acres in Camp Creek Twp on Dec 2, 2010 from National Bank of Waverly Ohio. It was a foreclosure. It cost 5,000.00 and the address is 1084 Left Fork Rd, Ottway, Ohio.
On May 9, 2009 CRsr buys from Mararet Farmer for 1.00 1.906 acres on Camp Creek Rd. I wonder if this is the property that BJM had/has her trailer on. And if it was bought as a thank you or for services rendered for taking care of Clarence?
I didn't notice that the brothers bought any more property together after the 6 acres on Left Fork Rd, I didn't see anymore.
One of my questions is why is Tony Rhoden living on BBL property when he co- owned property with his brother's. Surely CRsr wasn't using all the property that his father left his children to grow mj on?

Yes, a recent check I did showed TR handling the estates of CR1 and kids and LM handling estates for DR. I can understand why TR would not be living on the Rhoden properties. There are no dwellings to occupy on those properties. He probably wouldn't want to live in an abandoned shed or barn. Makes more sense to live where he had been at the times of the murders of his loved ones.

In an earlier article just after the murders, TR said he lived in the old family home of their parents for a while but moved, probably to a newer home. That yellow home on the UHR property was pretty small and old.

 

[MittenScarpetta]

Mitten, go to Pike Co Ohio Probate/juvenial court and type in Rhoden. All the Rhoden's and other's trying to get the estate's are named. As far as I know, CRjr, FR and HMR's estate's have been taken care of. Each had a 25,000.00 insurance policy that I assume their mother Dana had gotten for them when they were children (since it's cheaper then). Tony Rhoden is their admin/executor. CRsr's, FR's.HMR's and CRjr. I think in an article from the first year, that Tony was taking care of the property that Dana was living at because it was owned by CRsr. Since that property 3122 UHR had just been purchased, I've wondered if the insurance that you usually have to carry on a new home/loan, will pay for that place? That person I was talking about is Sk*d Mon-g*m*ry if that helps.
On the property that the Rhoden children inherited from there father Clarence. Clarence died in 2008, His property was split between his eight live children. Each got 1/8 interest in his land. By 2011 all the daughter's transferred their 1/8 to CRsr. I don't know if that went in the the other brother's names, because it doesn't show it or mention them. Perhaps this is how he got controlling interest in the land? 4 daughter's and 5 son's but one son died in his early teens (Steven). So each brother owned 1/4 of the shared land. The 4 brothers purchased 6 acres in Camp Creek Twp on Dec 2, 2010 from National Bank of Waverly Ohio. It was a foreclosure. It cost 5,000.00 and the address is 1084 Left Fork Rd, Ottway, Ohio.
On May 9, 2009 CRsr buys from Mararet Farmer for 1.00 1.906 acres on Camp Creek Rd. I wonder if this is the property that BJM had/has her trailer on. And if it was bought as a thank you or for services rendered for taking care of Clarence?
I didn't notice that the brothers bought any more property together after the 6 acres on Left Fork Rd, I didn't see anymore.
One of my questions is why is Tony Rhoden living on BBL property when he co- owned property with his brother's. Surely CRsr wasn't using all the property that his father left his children to grow mj on?

Thank you!

I went and looked. It looks like FR’s is settled, but there’s another hearing for HMR & CRjr on 6/11.

As far as the home owners insurance on DR, I would speculate that she did not have to have PMI insurance on it since there was a 30k down payment and the mortgage would’ve then only been for 30k. PMI is typically only used when a down payment is less than 20% OR when the loan to value ratio is high, I.e when there’s no equity. So my best guess is that no, DR would not have had that type of insurance that would pay off her home in the event of a death. Unless of course, she paid the extra on her standard house insurance to have that clause. Just from experience, most people don’t choose that option because it can be pricey and insurance companies try to not even tell the insured it’s an option.

In regards to the life insurance on the 3 Rhoden kids, I need to research, BUT it used to be in the event of a homicide, life insurance will not disperse funds until the crime is solved OR the beneficiary has been 100% cleared of any wrong doing. I would tend to believe that DR would have listed the beneficiary as herself and probably CRsr as the secondary. Since they’re both deceased, I wonder who she had listed as the 3rd beneficiary (if she even did). If there’s not a 3rd beneficiary, I’m not sure how an insurance company would handle that. Would they default the payout to the next of kin? Or in the event that CRsr wasn’t the 2nd listed beneficiary, who was? And did that person know prior to the murders?

Also, I did an address search of BJM on a couple different databases I use. One came up with zero results (odd). The other two case up with an address I’ve never seen mentioned anywhere. So, if she lived or lived on the property on LFR, she never used the address.

 

[MittenScarpetta]

Yes, a recent check I did showed TR handling the estates of CR1 and kids and LM handling estates for DR. I can understand why TR would not be living on the Rhoden properties. There are no dwellings to occupy on those properties. He probably wouldn't want to live in an abandoned shed or barn. Makes more sense to live where he had been at the times of the murders of his loved ones.

In an earlier article just after the murders, TR said he lived in the old family home of their parents for a while but moved, probably to a newer home. That yellow home on the UHR property was pretty small and old.

Honestly, I can see why he doesn’t live on those properties as well. And even if there were dwellings, besides the yellow house, I’m sure he wouldn’t want to live their anyways.

I’m in no way related to anyone in this case and I know how it affects me emotionally being an outsider looking in. Every time I look at pictures or video of the property, even 2 years later, I still get chills. I feel like the properties and even the trailers that are still in LE possession are just frozen in time. It’s a very odd feeling. So, I cannot in any way imagine how any of the family feels about the properties, homes, and possessions. It has to be a feeling that’s not easily put into words.

ETA-I’m with amauet regarding TR living on BBL property and not any of the other co-owned properties. There’s other property besides UHR that he could live on.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Okay, let me give this my best shot. Land trusts only have statutes in 7 states. Ohio is not one of those states, which makes it not only easier to do but also easier to do things in an immoral manner.

Land trusts are used a couple ways.
1) to transfer property with a lien aka mortgage, loan, etc and essentially avoiding taxes.

2) Land trusts are used to hold property. When a person transfers a regular deed, the risk of the lender finding out is significant. If a lender sees a deed transfer on a property, they will demand the loan paid off. In the 7 states that there are statues for this, an owner could not transfer the deed to an LLC because an LLC is not exempt from a lender from demanding the loan paid.

However, Ohio doesn’t have a statute on that.

So hypothetically speaking, if two friends decided to invest in a piece of property together, each having 50% interest in the property, they could put that property in a land trust under an LLC name (aka hide the asset)

Another thing of interest is when a person(s) does a land trust, there are trustees listed and a beneficiary. The beneficiaries are the most important part because they can sell the land without the other persons consent (if both people aren’t listed as beneficiaries) unless it’s stated in the trust agreement that the beneficiary only has consent with approval from the trustees.

In other words, if it’s not done correctly between the parties involved, one person can sell the property, walk away with all the $$$ and there’s nothing the other party can do about it.

3) A trustees name does not have to be on the actual deed. There can be a land trust in place with another party besides the persons on the loan.

4) Land trusts are not public record. Sale price and transfer information isn’t something that will be found on property records for the property if you look at land records. So while a land trust may exist, the only people who know about it are the ones involved.

And finally, (really I could go on because there’s more interesting things such as using them to protect your assets if you have rental property) the article states this:



It’s possible that this could come into play when looking at certain LLC’s surrounding this case, both on behalf of CRsr and BW/AW. I don’t know if it does, but anything is possible. JMO.

And this is how I believe it could apply to Peterson road, IMO, because more than one person purchased the property thus dual interest in profit.



Thank you RSD for your research on land trusts and providing this link earlier (that I’m using again [emoji846])

https://andersonadvisors.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Pros-and-Cons-of-Land-Trust.pdf

I would think that putting the land in a land trust under someone else's name or even with someone else as 50% owner would shelter it from the RICO act too.

 

[MittenScarpetta]

I would think that putting the land in a land trust under someone else's name or even with someone else as 50% owner would shelter it from the RICO act too.

Excellent point! I didn’t even think about that. I believe you are absolutely correct.

Just putting this hear for anyone who isn’t familiar with the RICO act.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racketeer_Influenced_and_Corrupt_Organizations_Act