GUILTY OH - Steubenville Rape Case, 11 Aug 2012 #1

[Cajun Girl]

Tugela, please do not take this as combative, only evidence in another case. A young woman of age was at a bar with a co-worker. She ordered and drank one drink to eat with her appetizers. She needed to be helped from the bar and woke up the next morning at her home uncertain of what had happened the night before because she had no memory. Now, because this woman was at a bar, (which was also a restaurant) is it to be pressumed she was drunk, after all she was seen having a cocktail and needed help leaving the establishment.

That young woman was me, it was 1995. I assure you people would have testified I needed help leaving the bar/restaurant. Logic would dictate I was drunk. I was drugged.

Since the victim did in this case did not go to the hospital until days later how do you know she was drunk? Who has testified to this? What is the witnesses age and standing in the community and do they have evidence to prove their testimony? I earnestly would love to look at that information.

Thanks for your time.

 

[Steely Dan]

That would be because she was drunk (fact) and might have been drugged (speculation).

If you are presenting an argument, then fact should allways take precedent over speculation, otherwise it becomes rhetoric.

With all due respect it is not a fact that she was drunk, she can't remember anything after arriving at the party. Some people think she was roofied in the car, JMO.

 

[hollyjokers]

My opinions are based on the sworn testimony at the preliminary cause hearing of the three key witnesses & detective under questioning by the special prosecutors & defense attorneys. My recollection of the victim's statement per police chief is she didn't remember much & nothing after midnight. Tweets & videos by teenage kids is the 21st century version of piggish locker room talk. Mostly BS & an attempt to look hard. Which is why MN, who did most of the tweeting & video commentary, to date has not been subpoenaed by either side to testify - if we are to believe his attorney.

 

[AbbeyR]

I posted this in the Lauren Spierer thread a while ago. I'm not sure if it was posted here or not, but I'm going to copy it over here just in case.It's a short opinion piece by an anthropologist who has studied gang rape on college campuses:

Why don't some boys see it as rape? http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/04/opinion/sanday-ohio-rape/index.html

One of the clauses of the Ohio law states that sexual activity is not permissible when "the other person's ability to resist or consent is substantially impaired because of a mental or physical condition or because of advanced age, and the offender knows or has reasonable cause to believe that the other person's ability to resist or consent is substantially impaired because of a mental or physical condition or because of advanced age."

The girl's incapacity comes not just from the multiple mentions of her being dead in the video. There is also possibly a photo of her being dragged along held by her wrists and ankles by two boys.

In the United States, surveys administered from the early 1980s to the present indicate that 20% to 25% of female students say they have experienced nonconsensual sex by the age of 21. Every year, a high-profile case of gang rape appears in the news. With each new report, many Americans react with shock.

Confronted with such cases, many explain it away, thinking or actually saying "she wanted it." Why do we think this way? Doing so is behind the strange idea of "legitimate rape." When will our sexual culture change so that an inebriated girl (or boy) is protected rather than abused?

 

[AbbeyR]

My opinions are based on the sworn testimony at the preliminary cause hearing of the three key witnesses & detective under questioning by the special prosecutors & defense attorneys. My recollection of the victim's statement per police chief is she didn't remember much & nothing after midnight. Tweets & videos by teenage kids is the 21st century version of piggish locker room talk. Mostly BS & an attempt to look hard. Which is why MN, who did most of the tweeting & video commentary, to date has not been subpoenaed by either side to testify - if we are to believe his attorney.

In the parts of the preliminary cause hearing that I saw that were posted online, the witnesses clearly state that the victim was unconscious, and even when she wasn't fully unconscious she was not capable of speaking or acting on her own. For example, when questioned about whether she was conscious during the assault by the two accused: "I wouldn't say she was passed out but she wasn't there to say yes or no."

*NB: this is from a pdf posted online, I don't know if it is an authentic transcript. If it is, I don't see why the question about whether she was drunk or drugged even matters very much since she was not able to consent.

There seems to be quite a bit of evidence suggesting that what we heard on the video was not just "piggish locker room talk" but the description of a sexual assault.

 

[JBean]

Please everyone link anything you are stating as fact. This is a must.

 

[Linda7NJ]

BBM

There doesn't appear to be any jump cuts. I'm pretty sure it's a continuous video.

I haven't followed this as closely as i like before posting such a strong opinion. I watched Dr Phil today and I felt sickened. The apathy for the alleged victim and downright cruelty made me furious.

Seems to me Dr Phil gave a platform to the alleged perps without them even showing up! An awful lot was glossed over or not brought out.

Seems everyone is in CYA mode and I feel dr Phil helped them.

All IMO


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Linda7NJ]

In my opinion, the title for this program should be "In Defense of Steubenville and the Accused.." Here is a preview: Dr. Phil calls the victim "a party girl" and says we shouldn't judge her for that. They are just kids, we should fix their lives, not ruin them. I am so angry I am speechless. I hope someone else can articulate this better than I can. To the football player belongs the spoils is still the attitude toward rape, even gang rape. Wow. The glorification of jocks runs deep. Don't watch this if you don't want to be upset. This my impression.

Mine too!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Tugela]

I'm confused about how what you are citing as a fact, that Jane Doe was drunk, has been established as a fact. Is there any evidence aside from witness testimony that she was drunk? It seems like given an evidence-based standard, there are very few facts in this case, aside from Twitter comments and youTube video. I'm unaware that Jane Doe has made any legal statements admitting to being drunk. Please correct me if I have missed them.

It seems like it is a fact that at least one witness testified at the probable cause hearing that Jane Doe was staggering and appeared intoxicated, but I don't see how that can be extrapolated to become a fact that she was drunk.

I apologize in advance if I am really missing the boat on this one.

Ok, I can't say fact, but the probabilty of drunk far exceeds the probability of drugged. Keep in mind that being drunk hasn't been denied as far as I know either. You would think that if she had not been drinking and then mysteriously lost all memory of what happened that night, it would have probably have alarmed her enough for someone to have commented on it by now.

As far as evidence is concerned, there would be no way to show she was drugged, but, even if she did not admit to it herself, if she had been drinking there would allmost certainly be witnesses to that.

 

[Tugela]

With all due respect it is not a fact that she was drunk, she can't remember anything after arriving at the party. Some people think she was roofied in the car, JMO.

I remember the first time I got really drunk. Or, more precisely, I don't remember it. All I had were brief flashes of recollections (three moments of about 5-10 seconds each), but most of the night was a complete blank.

You don't need to be drugged for that to happen, if you have enough alcohol fast enough with the right physiology you enter a state of "walking blackout" where you still do stuff, walk, talk and all those sorts of things, but the next day know very little about it. You become very primeval in your behaviour because you are operating with your subconcious only.

 

[wanttohelp]

Thought some would find this so interesting and shocking considering this topic.

[video=youtube;08FNo7wlHok]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08FNo7wlHok[/video]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=span8LF8-QU

 

[LinTX]

Finding it pretty hard to understand why the information from the supposed transcripts is being used as proof that anyone angry about how this has been handled is overreacting. There is enough in the ‘details’, as described above, to leave me plenty disgusted and angry, and as convinced as ever that more people should have been charged. Seeing words like "interfered with" and “piggish locker room talk” used to describe a rape, and witnesses (or those with knowledge of it) making jokes and laughing about it might give me a little clarity into the reasons some don’t see injustice. But it doesn’t change the reality of the crimes committed or the lack of prosecution for all involved. Whether there were 50 witnesses or 5, those people should have stopped it and reported it. No one witnessing any of it should have been given immunity, IMO. Those who were so happy to pass around pics and videos of the victim should not be seen in the same light as boys sharing centerfolds or shots of models/willing participants either. They were sharing evidence of a felony, and laughing about a girl being used and degraded in a terrible way.

I also don’t understand why the reason she was incapacitated is supposed to make a difference to anyone. Yes, additional charges could have been filed if drugging was proved, but the facts still stand that she incapable of consent. She should have been protected, not assaulted. IMO, anyone insinuating otherwise has a poor understanding of rape law and an even poorer understanding of how we as a society are supposed to protect those who cannot protect themselves.

Going back to Jill on Dr. Phil. It was reported that the lock down at the school was for about two hours - don't recall the date but it was at least a couple weeks ago. I had the impression from her outburst that it was still going on and something about tents and shivering in the cold...what was all that about?

 

[Steely Dan]

Finding it pretty hard to understand why the information from the supposed transcripts is being used as proof that anyone angry about how this has been handled is overreacting. There is enough in the ‘details’, as described above, to leave me plenty disgusted and angry, and as convinced as ever that more people should have been charged. Seeing words like "interfered with" and “piggish locker room talk” used to describe a rape, and witnesses (or those with knowledge of it) making jokes and laughing about it might give me a little clarity into the reasons some don’t see injustice. But it doesn’t change the reality of the crimes committed or the lack of prosecution for all involved. Whether there were 50 witnesses or 5, those people should have stopped it and reported it. No one witnessing any of it should have been given immunity, IMO. Those who were so happy to pass around pics and videos of the victim should not be seen in the same light as boys sharing centerfolds or shots of models/willing participants either. They were sharing evidence of a felony, and laughing about a girl being used and degraded in a terrible way.

I also don’t understand why the reason she was incapacitated is supposed to make a difference to anyone. Yes, additional charges could have been filed if drugging was proved, but the facts still stand that she incapable of consent. She should have been protected, not assaulted. IMO, anyone insinuating otherwise has a poor understanding of rape law and an even poorer understanding of how we as a society are supposed to protect those who cannot protect themselves.

Going back to Jill on Dr. Phil. It was reported that the lock down at the school was for about two hours - don't recall the date but it was at least a couple weeks ago. I had the impression from her outburst that it was still going on and something about tents and shivering in the cold...what was all that about?

Good post, but I think you forgot to add that any images would be child .

 

[human]

It just reinforces that we live in a rape culture. The girl was drunk, so it's OK that there was sex.

The boys were drunk, so it's OK that there was sex with her.

Dang. You know. Boys will be boys and girls are . That is put in the mind of some males. I know there are other males who would never do that drunk or not.

 

[Steely Dan]

It just reinforces that we live in a rape culture. The girl was drunk, so it's OK that there was sex.

The boys were drunk, so it's OK that there was sex with her.

Dang. You know. Boys will be boys and girls are . That is put in the mind of some males. I know there are other males who would never do that drunk or not.

Fortunately, all of my friends were anti-rape. (they wouldn't have been friends if they weren't) Since I've joined the board, whenever a subject like this came up, I've said that I think rape is glossed over in big football towns. In town like this or colleges the big time players have total immunity in some cases. It seems like all they care about is whether or not it can be "handled". Most of the time shoplifting can't be handled without the news hearing about it. If drugs show up in an NFL combine test that's usually reported too.

However, all you have to do is intimidate a rape victim and/or witness'. It's usually just easy enough to do it verbally. "Well if you accuse Johnny of raping you then you'll be hated by everyone for making a story up like that just to hurt him and the team. Nobodies going to believe you and you'll have a lot of people calling you a liar and if I have to sit Johnny down we'll have a tough time against Big Rival this weekend."

The hardest thing for a rape victim is all of the fake rape victims that make claims against athletes so they can get a chunk of money. These women don't care about notoriety. They just want to force the athlete to give them money to make them go away.

Fortunately, because this is becoming such a big story the two defendants may never see a college scholarship offer. If they do they'll either be undrafted and only invited to NFL camps at most, but hopefully overlooked entirely.

 

[LinTX]

Good post, but I think you forgot to add that any images would be child .

Yes, most certainly would be. And prosecutable if the evidence hadn’t been deleted - supposedly all traces from every phone, hard drive, ISP, Facebook & Instagram accounts vanished. Lucky for them, huh?

But in my defense, I was thinking more in terms of the “boys will be boys” type characterization that was made about it here...

 

[AbbeyR]

How to live with positivity (lessons from Dr. Phil):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lafturdgaO8

 

[Steely Dan]

How to live with positivity (lessons from Dr. Phil):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lafturdgaO8

uke: Unfortunately, I saw that the first time.

 

[believe09]

FYI, Phil McGraw isnt responsible for any of the information disseminated on his show. It is considered "entertainment". I proofed one of his contracts once for the family of a missing person-he states explicitly that, for example, any advice he gives you during taping should be vetted by a licensed physician. I kid you not.

You can take the info or leave it-I wont post the contract because of the information regarding the case contained within it.

It was eye opening for me, to be honest. But I digress.

Well, it would have been nice if Dr Phil brought some attention to the case in a way that didnt minimize the experience of the rape victim. Normally I believe that there is no such thing as bad publicity, but I am on the fence about the show.

As to Jill-I think it is very important to air the mob mentality that led to such a disgusting act-the threat leading to the lockdown. My two cents.

 

[hollyjokers]

I love how we have to walk back from the victim being drunk assertion because sworn witness testimony is not as reliable as individual gut-feelings. Laughter.

Not sure how far removed some of you are from the partying years, Back when I was 16-19, drinking vodka would have been akin to drinking gasoline. My options were limited since I rarely had enough to buy a 4pk of wine coolers & have something left to tip the vagrant who bought it for me. But that is not the case today. Go take a gander at your local liquor store. Marshmallow, raspberry, caramel, whipped cream, watermelon...probably 40+ flavors of vodka that when dumped in the familiar round orange cooler of gatorade tastes better than any Boone's Farm & 3-4 times more potent. If we are to believe the victim was familiar at all these parties, but not a drinker, surely someone was deprived of their designated driver that night! I'm sure making a statement like that makes me a victim basher. Its called reality. Young girls and binge drinking is growing at such an alarming rate, the CDC is very concerned.

http://healthland.time.com/2013/01/10/chug-chug-chug-why-more-women-are-binge-drinking/