GUILTY OH - Steubenville Rape Case, 11 Aug 2012 #2

[Snoods]

Well, I also don't think it's the sex act that ruins these girls lives. I think it's the public reaction and the shunning and humiliation that follows that ruins them.

If there were the fewest pictures taken, and they weren't shared, and no one shunned the girls in this situation or made vulgar comments, and if afterward she was treated with respect in school and by the football team, there would be no issue whatsoever.

It's the public humiliation, after the fact, that seems to surprise these girls and makes their lives unbearable.

I don't think we can call rape a "sex act." I don't think sex ruined the victim's life, I think it was getting raped.

 

[Snoods]

Eileen, until we are willing to look at our society's problems unflinchingly we will never solve them.

We are not allowed to discuss information that didn't come from mainstream media on this board, which is a good thing.

But usually mainstream media misses huge truths. Because frankly, it's none of our business. So you end up, in a story like this, without the tools to understand the dynamics of what happened.

As with most incidents like this, this event started coming together LONG before the nigh where everything came to a head.

And if we don't acknowledge that - that along the way, attentive friends/parents/teachers/others had a chance to change the outcome for this group of young people before the night of Aug 11, 2012, then we miss the opportunity to spot it and head it off the next time it will happen.

And if we refuse to discuss the bigger picture - what the causes of this behavior are and how they can be stopped besides acting completely surprised and revolted when it happens - we are powerless to stop it.

That's not about blame. That's about not being surprised this happens, and where it happens, and to whom. That's about beginning to solve it.

I agree there is a larger problem that needs to be addressed. But your not so subtle insinuations that the girl is partly to blame is just way off base. Am I supposed to believe you or my lying eyes? I saw a rape being committed on film and read it on social media. I have never seen a rape case with more evidence. Those rapists should thank their lucky stars that they weren't convicted in an adult court. As for the one boy crying like a little girl after the verdict, that has always infuriated me, I'm sorry. His tears were for himself. He had no tears or apologies for his victim after he raped her. The only tears were after he was found guilty.

 

[Tugela]

I agree there is a larger problem that needs to be addressed. But your not so subtle insinuations that the girl is partly to blame is just way off base. Am I supposed to believe you or my lying eyes? I saw a rape being committed on film and read it on social media. I have never seen a rape case with more evidence. Those rapists should thank their lucky stars that they weren't convicted in an adult court. As for the one boy crying like a little girl after the verdict, that has always infuriated me, I'm sorry. His tears were for himself. He had no tears or apologies for his victim after he raped her. The only tears were after he was found guilty.

I don't recall, did they find any video? The only video I know about was some other kid talking about it.

AFAIK the only actual photographic evidence was of her being carried apparently unconscious. The primary evidence used in trial for the deed itself was witness accounts from other kids present at the time. It is hard to say how accurate it all was, since they were likely all very drunk.

I think the biggest problem in this case was not what actually happened (since the victim didn't remember it) but what the rumour mill subsequently turned out (we all read what they were saying, and what that kid in the video was claiming). The stories afterwards were far more lurid than what actually apparently happened, but unfortunately since that was the only reality the victim knows, it will be her experience going forward.

When I was a teenager I got really drunk on a number of occasions, to the point where I basically had little memory of the night before. Total blackout, falling on your face drunk. You are very vulnerable like that. And stuff happened, then the next day there were all sorts of stories, but it is hard to know what is true and what is rumour. You don't know what to believe because you have no memory of it. At that age things get massively exaggerated very quickly among your peers. It is a horrible feeling not knowing what really happened, you feel completely helpless, people are laughing at you behind your back and judging you and you don't know why. Although they are all talking to each other about it, they won't tell you. If you try to find out you hit a wall of silence and uncomfortable looks. I can imagine that this girl found herself in a very similar situation, I know how she feels from personal experience.

 

[cherishtoo]

Well, I also don't think it's the sex act that ruins these girls lives. I think it's the public reaction and the shunning and humiliation that follows that ruins them.

If there were the fewest pictures taken, and they weren't shared, and no one shunned the girls in this situation or made vulgar comments, and if afterward she was treated with respect in school and by the football team, there would be no issue whatsoever.

It's the public humiliation, after the fact, that seems to surprise these girls and makes their lives unbearable.

Respectfully, I don't think this case has anything to do with a "sex act". Non-consensual sex is rape.

As part of the public, I've never felt anything but compassion for this young girl. And, I don't understand what it has to do with pictures?

 

[BeginnersLuck]

I am blown away by the amount of victim blaming that is still present in our society. This case clearly was a eye opener to the problems that still currently exist in our society concerning rape and the views on rape. This case is a perfect example of what happens and what needs to change. It clearly shows what measures need to be taken as far as education on rape.

Girls have been taught and continue to be taught, that they have to basically be on constant guard because some guys just can't seem to keep their penises to themselves and that's why they rape. Some of the comments I've read by the public insinuate that this is just a normal guy thing and well "boys will be boys."

Rape is a crime. Education needs to be geared toward all youth especially when it concerns ability to consent and age of consent. Rape is one of the most damaging crimes and the least reported. If the parents of these rapists, would have talked to them about rape and the consequences, if the school would have educated the students on rape and the consequences, maybe, just maybe, we would see less of this. There is absolutely no excuse for any cover up by any adults and this case sends a clear message to others.

This is progress as we move forward with the fight against sexual assault. I expect to see more cases like this in the future. The message should be clear.

Would there be victim blaming if a bunch of male buddies had a party and one of them passed out and was raped? What if someones son was raped by other "football" players in the shower? The fact is the chances of it ever being reported are slim. The victim may be afraid of what people would say and the victim may feel dirty, violated and shame even though they shouldn't. If the victim comes forward, which is important to prevent future rapes, they may be laughed at, bullied, accused of lying, threatened. Would the victim be damaged from the rape? Of course they would! Would they be additionally damaged from revictimization by society? Of course! Further victimization causes additional pain and can interfere with healing.

Victim blaming happens because it's allowed and to some apparently acceptable, even though rape is criminal.

The days of brushing it under the rug are over. Saying it happens everywhere so what's the big deal is in the past. Things are changing. Progress is being made. People are speaking out and are growing in numbers. Our youth must be educated at home and school. People need to see that this education is happening in their schools.

It should make no difference if the crowd is all male or all female or mixed in "any" social situation or other situation with another human being. What makes a difference is those that choose to commit the crime of rape. 100% of the blame and shame should lie on the rapist.

 

[thefragile7393]

It happens because of how they were or were not dressed, if they were drinking, if they have a past that is judged as promiscuous, if they have even a tiny hint of a mental health history. It happens when none of those are present....someone will always find some way to blame the victim. "Well x shouldn't have been there, x knew there would be drinking." "X is underage, no child of mine would have snuck out to go do that." "X was wearing (clothing) and it was obvious what she wanted." "X is crazy, she saw a psychiatrist for depression last year. " sigh...
People are still ignorant and living in the dark ages apparently.

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[Linda7NJ]

Pretty sad when the only group having the girls back was Anonymous.

Thank goodness for them!


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[JeannaT]

Rape seems to be the only crime in our culture where we don't feel comfortable warning would-be victims of behaviors that put them at risk.

Certainly, we are bombarded at the holiday season with strategies to keep from being robbed of your purchases. You should park in a well-lighted area, keep your wits about you, walk alertly and with purpose, and if needed make several trips to the car during your shopping day so you aren't over-burdened. Ask a security guard to escort you if one is available.

To prevent car theft, lock your car and place it in a well-lighted area. If you have valuables in the car, take them.

To keep your children from being preyed on by pedophiles, know all the homes they are going to and teach them about bad touch. Keep lines of communication open. Go to a website to see where the sex predators are. Screen your babysitters for criminal backgrounds.

To not be assaulted, park in a well-lighted area of the parking garage. Go to your car in twos or threes, and don't walk down back alleys in bad parts of town.

I'm honestly very curious. Why are we, as a society, so compelled to warn victims of all other crimes of behaviors they should avoid if they want to be safe, but we refuse to do the same thing for women? Does anyone think it's "victim blaming" or "victim bashing" in the other instances of teaching safe behavior practices to avoid being a victim?

Why only when it comes to rape do we feel like we can't instruct girls and women how to increase their chances of being safe? No one, certainly, in the other cases of warning victims is on the side of the criminals - they're just teaching people how not to become a victim of those criminals.

Except in rape. You can only act like there is zero a girl can do to try to prevent what has happened to this girl. Which is not true.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

Rape seems to be the only crime in our culture where we don't feel comfortable warning would-be victims of behaviors that put them at risk.

Certainly, we are bombarded at the holiday season with strategies to keep from being robbed of your purchases. You should park in a well-lighted area, keep your wits about you, walk alertly and with purpose, and if needed make several trips to the car during your shopping day so you aren't over-burdened. Ask a security guard to escort you if one is available.

To prevent car theft, lock your car and place it in a well-lighted area. If you have valuables in the car, take them.

To keep your children from being preyed on by pedophiles, know all the homes they are going to and teach them about bad touch. Keep lines of communication open. Go to a website to see where the sex predators are. Screen your babysitters for criminal backgrounds.

To not be assaulted, park in a well-lighted area of the parking garage. Go to your car in twos or threes, and don't walk down back alleys in bad parts of town.

I'm honestly very curious. Why are we, as a society, so compelled to warn victims of all other crimes of behaviors they should avoid if they want to be safe, but we refuse to do the same thing for women? Does anyone think it's "victim blaming" or "victim bashing" in the other instances of teaching safe behavior practices to avoid being a victim?

Why only when it comes to rape do we feel like we can't instruct girls and women how to increase their chances of being safe? No one, certainly, in the other cases of warning victims is on the side of the criminals - they're just teaching people how not to become a victim of those criminals.

Except in rape. You can only act like there is zero a girl can do to try to prevent what has happened to this girl. Which is not true.

I'm pretty darn sure we have been teaching females "what not" to do for years. It doesn't seem to change the fact that men are still raping.

Is it typical to blame someone that gets robbed while shopping, because they didn't ask for an escort to their car? Imagine every female out shopping today asking for a employee to escort them to their car. That wouldn't be possible.

Women make up 50% or more of the population. Women cannot live in fear and stop participating in activities because they "should" fear being raped.

In parts of the middle east women are not to leave the house without being completely covered and having a male relative escort them. They still get raped and if they speak up they are punished.

Apparently, to some, it is to much to educate men not to rape and hold them accountable by law when they do. These rapists thought their crime was hilarious and something to brag about, until they got punished. There is something deeply wrong with that.

 

[ktgirl]

I'm pretty darn sure we have been teaching females "what not" to do for years. It doesn't seem to change the fact that men are still raping.

Is it typical to blame someone that gets robbed while shopping, because they didn't ask for an escort to their car? Imagine every female out shopping today asking for a employee to escort them to their car. That wouldn't be possible.

Women make up 50% or more of the population. Women cannot live in fear and stop participating in activities because they "should" fear being raped.

In parts of the middle east women are not to leave the house without being completely covered and having a male relative escort them. They still get raped and if they speak up they are punished.

Apparently, to some, it is to much to educate men not to rape and hold them accountable by law when they do. These rapists thought their crime was hilarious and something to brag about, until they got punished. There is something deeply wrong with that.

Bolded by me - Thank you for this! :loveyou:

 

[JeannaT]

I'm pretty darn sure we have been teaching females "what not" to do for years. It doesn't seem to change the fact that men are still raping.

Is it typical to blame someone that gets robbed while shopping, because they didn't ask for an escort to their car? Imagine every female out shopping today asking for a employee to escort them to their car. That wouldn't be possible.

Women make up 50% or more of the population. Women cannot live in fear and stop participating in activities because they "should" fear being raped.

In parts of the middle east women are not to leave the house without being completely covered and having a male relative escort them. They still get raped and if they speak up they are punished.

Apparently, to some, it is to much to educate men not to rape and hold them accountable by law when they do. These rapists thought their crime was hilarious and something to brag about, until they got punished. There is something deeply wrong with that.

We sure used to tell girls what not to do to keep from being gang raped at a party of their peers. We have stopped teaching that, for some reason, and decided that was blaming the victim. I'm sure most concerned parents also teach their daughters how to be safer, but for some reason the media better not even mention the fact that there are things you can do to lessen your chances of being a victim. Odd, really.

We still teach people how to avoid being a victim of all other crimes, and no one sees that as victim bashing, but just useful helpful information.

Also, no one thinks that educating potential victims of all other crimes, violent or non violent, makes men think they will not be held accountable. Quite the opposite, actually - it sets a mindset that we will not put up with this behavior, and we will fight it two-fold - first, by educating potential victims in what steps to take to avoid being victimized and how to spot when they are potentially going to be victimized, and makes it clear to perpetrators that this is a crime and not a party game.

Somehow I've gotten very sideways with a group of posters on this board for wanting rape victims to be treated with the same education we treat other victims - and not pretend that crime is random and there is nothing whatsoever the individual can do to be safer.

People have become so used to this political correctness - and gasping in air if anyone tries to educate girls about how to avoid being abused, that we've all decided that's victim bashing. I guess it would be victim bashing to put up signs in mall parking lots, "lock your car, hide your valuables". After all, they're not to blame for car burglars, the burglars are.

 

[Snoods]

I don't recall, did they find any video? The only video I know about was some other kid talking about it.

AFAIK the only actual photographic evidence was of her being carried apparently unconscious. The primary evidence used in trial for the deed itself was witness accounts from other kids present at the time. It is hard to say how accurate it all was, since they were likely all very drunk.

I think the biggest problem in this case was not what actually happened (since the victim didn't remember it) but what the rumour mill subsequently turned out (we all read what they were saying, and what that kid in the video was claiming). The stories afterwards were far more lurid than what actually apparently happened, but unfortunately since that was the only reality the victim knows, it will be her experience going forward.

When I was a teenager I got really drunk on a number of occasions, to the point where I basically had little memory of the night before. Total blackout, falling on your face drunk. You are very vulnerable like that. And stuff happened, then the next day there were all sorts of stories, but it is hard to know what is true and what is rumour. You don't know what to believe because you have no memory of it. At that age things get massively exaggerated very quickly among your peers. It is a horrible feeling not knowing what really happened, you feel completely helpless, people are laughing at you behind your back and judging you and you don't know why. Although they are all talking to each other about it, they won't tell you. If you try to find out you hit a wall of silence and uncomfortable looks. I can imagine that this girl found herself in a very similar situation, I know how she feels from personal experience.

Sorry, I was a bit carried away. No, there wasn't any video of the actual rape. There was DNA and photographic evidence as well as the written words of the boys involved. And we don't actually know if the stories coming out were far more lurid than what actually happened. We do know that two boys were convicted of rape, justifiably so IMO.

Tugela, I am very, very sorry that something similar happened to you. It must have affected you greatly, I can still feel your pain in your words. (((Hugs)))

 

[Karmady]

We sure used to tell girls what not to do to keep from being gang raped at a party of their peers. We have stopped teaching that, for some reason, and decided that was blaming the victim. I'm sure most concerned parents also teach their daughters how to be safer, but for some reason the media better not even mention the fact that there are things you can do to lessen your chances of being a victim. Odd, really.

We still teach people how to avoid being a victim of all other crimes, and no one sees that as victim bashing, but just useful helpful information.

Also, no one thinks that educating potential victims of all other crimes, violent or non violent, makes men think they will not be held accountable. Quite the opposite, actually - it sets a mindset that we will not put up with this behavior, and we will fight it two-fold - first, by educating potential victims in what steps to take to avoid being victimized and how to spot when they are potentially going to be victimized, and makes it clear to perpetrators that this is a crime and not a party game.

Somehow I've gotten very sideways with a group of posters on this board for wanting rape victims to be treated with the same education we treat other victims - and not pretend that crime is random and there is nothing whatsoever the individual can do to be safer.

People have become so used to this political correctness - and gasping in air if anyone tries to educate girls about how to avoid being abused, that we've all decided that's victim bashing. I guess it would be victim bashing to put up signs in mall parking lots, "lock your car, hide your valuables". After all, they're not to blame for car burglars, the burglars are.

Agree. Should you be able to go to an atm in the south bronx at midnight (or any time of day for that matter) without getting robbed? Of course. If you were providing advice to your child about doing that, what would you say? jmo

 

[JeannaT]

Agree. Should you be able to go to an atm in the south bronx at midnight (or any time of day for that matter) without getting robbed? Of course. If you were providing advice to your child about doing that, what would you say? jmo

Thanks. I've been thinking about this a lot, and agree on the ATM situation. It's not smart to make yourself such an easy victim of crime, and there are things you can do to avoid it.

So I was also thinking about bike and car theft. If you have theft insurance but leave your bike or car unlocked and out in the open, it's likely the insurance will not reimburse you if it's taken. You have to take reasonable care not to be a victim of theft, and I think anyone reading this thread would agree that insurance companies investigate, and if they found you parked a very nice bicycle out in front of your dorm unlocked and then left for Christmas vacation, the insurance probably wouldn't pay you. And in fact, it would be right to say you had been foolish and why didn't you take better care of your bike?

So I think I've hit on something that might make it different. In the ATM case, the bike and stolen car cases, no one is siding with the perpetrator and snickering at the victim. Everyone is still in the victim's court, and no one is laughing with the thief, as it often happens with girls who are gang raped at a friend's party. So there is that difference.

But there is also a difference that sexuality has a lot of nuances and it's hard to tell all the time when consent is given. It's not at all hard to tell with the ATM and the bike thief - no one wants to be robbed of their money or bike.

But in normal sexual behavior, there is give and take, nonconsent that turns into consent in a make out session, girls who think they have to play hard to get to not look like a but really are consenting to sex, etc.

It's hard. It's hard to weed through date rape and make complete clear sense of it the way we can with an ATM and a bike theft.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

Thanks. I've been thinking about this a lot, and agree on the ATM situation. It's not smart to make yourself such an easy victim of crime, and there are things you can do to avoid it.

So I was also thinking about bike and car theft. If you have theft insurance but leave your bike or car unlocked and out in the open, it's likely the insurance will not reimburse you if it's taken. You have to take reasonable care not to be a victim of theft, and I think anyone reading this thread would agree that insurance companies investigate, and if they found you parked a very nice bicycle out in front of your dorm unlocked and then left for Christmas vacation, the insurance probably wouldn't pay you. And in fact, it would be right to say you had been foolish and why didn't you take better care of your bike?

So I think I've hit on something that might make it different. In the ATM case, the bike and stolen car cases, no one is siding with the perpetrator and snickering at the victim. Everyone is still in the victim's court, and no one is laughing with the thief, as it often happens with girls who are gang raped at a friend's party. So there is that difference.

But there is also a difference that sexuality has a lot of nuances and it's hard to tell all the time when consent is given. It's not at all hard to tell with the ATM and the bike thief - no one wants to be robbed of their money or bike.

But in normal sexual behavior, there is give and take, nonconsent that turns into consent in a make out session, girls who think they have to play hard to get to not look like a but really are consenting to sex, etc.

It's hard. It's hard to weed through date rape and make complete clear sense of it the way we can with an ATM and a bike theft.

I cannot equate an analogy of theft to a crime that is committed on the body of a person. A more appropriate but not equivalent comparison would be one that inflicts bodily injury on another.

Is it because the scars are not so visibly seen, that makes it hard for some to comprehend? This was an act of forcing something inside anothers body, the most private and sacred part of the body without consent. There is no other act more disgusting and violating than this.

I also think it's important to stick to discussing the circumstances in this case.
The facts don't support the discussion of a he said/she said date rape. That discussion may be more appropriate on another thread.

 

[erik28]

I completely agree with BeginnersLuck that the conversation on this thread should be focused to the topic which is the Stuebenville Rape Case Trial Started. Maybe a new thread should be opened to discuss the Grand Jury Indictments, I'm not sure what the protocol is here.

 

[erik28]

These analogies have my head swimming. If the ATM one is to apply in the Steubenville matter, it might be like if your friends invited you to go to the ATM with them, and said it would be a good time. When you got there and they noticed you were intoxicated, they helped you withdraw $1k and kept it for themselves, and then took you to another ATM because you couldn't walk, and made another withdrawal which they also kept for themselves. And maybe all the while you thought it was safe and fine because everybody was laughing and there were some parents and other adults in the hazy distance. And while you didn't notice your own bank account being emptied by your friends, because you were so intoxicated and you were with people you trusted, you also didn't notice anyone else in seeming trouble either.

If one is to believe that simply being at the party and being intoxicated and being female were overwhelming risk factors, then why weren't all the girls assaulted? And what is this assumption that parents don't teach girls the dangers of rape based on? Is the assumption that girls who are raped weren't taught better? Because rape happens to males and females in all sorts of circumstances at all sorts of ages and stages.

The shopping parking lot analogy also doesn't apply because it assumes that crime only happens to people who don't follow enough safety precautions. That you can fully prevent crime if you follow the precautions, and that if you haven't followed all the precautions you are somehow responsible for the crime. There are definitely people who are more susceptible to crime, but it is still always the criminal who is responsible for the crime.

 

[erik28]

AFAIK the only actual photographic evidence was of her being carried apparently unconscious. The primary evidence used in trial for the deed itself was witness accounts from other kids present at the time. It is hard to say how accurate it all was, since they were likely all very drunk.

There was at least one cell phone photo of Jane Doe transmitted by T.M. that constituted child . Trial news reports also stated that Jane Doe was shown an additional photo at trial that she had never seen before.

The public does not have access to all of the details of the evidence in this case.

 

[JeannaT]

These analogies have my head swimming. If the ATM one is to apply in the Steubenville matter, it might be like if your friends invited you to go to the ATM with them, and said it would be a good time. When you got there and they noticed you were intoxicated, they helped you withdraw $1k and kept it for themselves, and then took you to another ATM because you couldn't walk, and made another withdrawal which they also kept for themselves. And maybe all the while you thought it was safe and fine because everybody was laughing and there were some parents and other adults in the hazy distance. And while you didn't notice your own bank account being emptied by your friends, because you were so intoxicated and you were with people you trusted, you also didn't notice anyone else in seeming trouble either.

If one is to believe that simply being at the party and being intoxicated and being female were overwhelming risk factors, then why weren't all the girls assaulted? And what is this assumption that parents don't teach girls the dangers of rape based on? Is the assumption that girls who are raped weren't taught better? Because rape happens to males and females in all sorts of circumstances at all sorts of ages and stages.

The shopping parking lot analogy also doesn't apply because it assumes that crime only happens to people who don't follow enough safety precautions. That you can fully prevent crime if you follow the precautions, and that if you haven't followed all the precautions you are somehow responsible for the crime. There are definitely people who are more susceptible to crime, but it is still always the criminal who is responsible for the crime.

Your ATM analogy works for me, very well. Providing that she gave them the password, and then stood in front of the ATM camera and physically handed over the cash the first several times. Then they learned the password by making so many withdrawals, and she was less a participant as the evening wore on. I actually think that's a very good analogy.

I think the shopping analogy works very well, though, actually. Rape doesn't happen only to people who don't take precautions - it can happen by someone breaking in to your apartment and assaulting you totally out of the blue. What is still true is, society recognizes there are things you can do to lessen your chances of parking lot shopping crime, and they're happy to tell you about them every Christmas shopping season.

 

[erik28]

Your ATM analogy works for me, very well. Providing that she gave them the password, and then stood in front of the ATM camera and physically handed over the cash the first several times. Then they learned the password by making so many withdrawals, and she was less a participant as the evening wore on. I actually think that's a very good analogy.

<modsnip> What do you have against this victim? This is not what was alleged to have happened in the Steubenville case.

Oh- except for the part where the defendants got the password to access Jane Doe's phone which eventually disappeared.