GUILTY OH - Steubenville Rape Case, 11 Aug 2012 #2

[IzzyBlanche]

My husband and I were away with family for Easter, and left my minor son in the house because he had an orchestra competition that he didn't want to miss. When other students heard he was there without supervision, they all came over and this one girl brought all the alcohol and had to be carried out nearly dead because she drank almost all of it. There were six cheerleaders who came with her, and they all drank too but to a lesser extent. At the time when this happened, my son called us on our cell phone and we talked to the two cops on the scene - one wasn't going to charge him, the other was - and we had to plead with the emergency room charge nurse to test his blood alcohol although he was underage - he was 16 - so he couldn't submit to a blood test without parental consent. We were on the phone. I had to beg please check his blood alcohol, he wants you to do it. So they did. It was zero.

This is about the worst thing I've ever experienced - my son facing charges, his friends facing charges, and this one stupid girl and her friends who totally escaped any charges whatsoever. My son's friends were convicted because they in fact, had had something to drink.

In Texas (maybe other states) minors who seek medical attention for being drunk aren't charged with crimes. It's a good thing, it's designed to make sure minors who need medical attention aren't kept in secret because they fear criminal charges.

So that's why this girl didn't face charges. If you drink to the point that you need medical attention, you're in the clear. Especially if you're little and cute.

If you only drink a few beers and you're a guy, no such luck.

Questions to the parts BBM in order:

1. Why did he let them in? Especially the ones bringing alcohol?

2. What did the cops want to charge him with?

3. Again, charges for what? Minor in possession, I assume? I'm sorry, I'm still not understanding how this charge wasn't justified unless the girl with the alcohol forced her way in.

4. If they did have something to drink, weren't they in fact guilty of minor in possession?

5. See #4.

 

[mrsu]

They're not really very employable. There are probably some construction type jobs they could do, but they certainly can't do anything professional (except sports, and theater or music I guess). They can't live near schools or even visit schools, in some areas they have to post warning signs in their yards, they have to register so anyone looking around on the internet will know who they are.

It would be unlikely they could date a woman with children, coach a soccer team, attend a pta meeting. Sex offenders aren't allowed inside our schools even to drop off a lunch.

They can't attend family reunions where children will be present, or go to the country club or neighborhood pool in the summer.

It's paramount to being declared a 'non person' in Muslim countries, imho.

Oh darn! That's what happens when someone is a rapist! I don't care if these kids' brains are fully developed or not, their actions after the fact prove that they knew what they had done was wrong. The only reason these 2 boys took the brunt of it is because they were the ones dumb enough to have an arrogant picture taken of them holding the unconscious victim. They have tried every which way to lie and blame the victim and I truly believed they thought they would get off. Just shows further proof of their arrogance. Anyone who is capable of raping an unconscious victim gets everything that is coming to them, IMO. They made their bed, now they have to sleep in it.

And I would feel the same way if it were my own kid.

 

[mrsu]

I'm thinking at least a few of the 16 that refused to testify - plus whatever ones LE had wanted DNA from - I believe Westlake was one of those. Can a GJ compel DNA? I still can't believe you can refuse a DNA - and that at trial the prosecution just said there were 3 samples found - but only 1 was ID'd.




JMHO

Forgive my ignorance, but what DNA was found? I remember reading a crude comment about "a wang in the butt" so I'm wondering if they anally assaulted her too?

 

[nomoresorrow]

HUGE RED FLAG...Any guy who would touch a female who is obviously under the influence tells me that there is a huge possibility that they would also violate a child, given the opportunity. Rape is about power and control and that's exactly what these guys liked - having complete power and control over this poor girl. The only one's more vulnerable then someone who is grossly intoxicated would be a helpless child... MO ~

 

[Tsunvirtual]

Questions to the parts BBM in order:

1. Why did he let them in? Especially the ones bringing alcohol?

2. What did the cops want to charge him with?

3. Again, charges for what? Minor in possession, I assume? I'm sorry, I'm still not understanding how this charge wasn't justified unless the girl with the alcohol forced her way in.

4. If they did have something to drink, weren't they in fact guilty of minor in possession?

5. See #4.

add to that:

6.
Why was minor son left at home to succumb to peer pressure and have an underage drinking party at their home?

7. Why were there cops on the scene? How did it get to that point?

8. Aren't you lucky no one was raped or died while you left him unsupervised and that you were able to get them to bend the rules for you and it only cost you $500?

 

[mrsu]

Um hm. My next son, after the first one I talked about, got a call from a girl who was wearing a bra and underwear and drunk and needed a ride home. THis is a model gorgeous girl, BTW. So he got in his car with a towel and drove her home wrapped in the towel and her undies. Untouched. That son got another call from a girl his freshman year in college who had swallowed a bunch of pills in an act of suicide, and he went to her dorm, carried her out to the hospital and called her mother in her home town. And he stayed with her for about 12 hours in the hospital, missing critical classes.

I get it that many boys have great character, as my sons do. I also believe, though, that boys who are offered something and take it aren't devils from the depths of evil, and shouldn't suffer life sentences as a sex offender for giving in.

And I believe in this case, they were offered favors. There may have been some who got something from a girl who was less responsive, but in general, she was awake enough to participate. From what I've read.

And that's not victim bashing. That's paraphrasing something that's been in the main stream news.

WHAT????????????? :what: Everything I have read has said she was passed out unconscious. Even the boys referred to her as "dead" in their social media activity. The YouTube video refers to her as dead and suggests this was her "dying wish". The only ones I have heard say she was reciprocating was the rapists - and only after the fact.

The bottom line is that it does not matter how big of a this girl was, how many guys she had been with prior to this, if she drinks underage or how drunk she gets. It does not matter if she had been fingered before, had anal sex before, or had intercourse before. That does not give these boys free range to do whatever they want to her when she is not of right mind. EVER.

 

[thefragile7393]

HUGE RED FLAG...Any guy who would touch a female who is obviously under the influence tells me that there is a huge possibility that they would also violate a child, given the opportunity. Rape is about power and control and that's exactly what these guys liked - having complete power and control over this poor girl. The only one's more vulnerable then someone who is grossly intoxicated would be a helpless child... MO ~

Not necessarily. I think it more shows the possibility of him having a callous and ugly view of women and a overblown sense of power and entitlement when it comes towards them. I don't think that kids are on his mind....he appears to be more of a predator of women nearer his age.

Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2

 

[thefragile7393]

WHAT????????????? :what: Everything I have read has said she was passed out unconscious. Even the boys referred to her as "dead" in their social media activity. The YouTube video refers to her as dead and suggests this was her "dying wish". The only ones I have heard say she was reciprocating was the rapists - and only after the fact.

The bottom line is that it does not matter how big of a this girl was, how many guys she had been with prior to this, if she drinks underage or how drunk she gets. It does not matter if she had been fingered before, had anal sex before, or had intercourse before. That does not give these boys free range to do whatever they want to her when she is not of right mind. EVER.

I get she was in a bad situation....but in no way does anyone deserve to have anything done to them against their will. She is the victim here....not anyone who participated in this crime. These boys are old enough to know what they did was wrong.

Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Steely Dan]

I've really fallen behind on this thread due to the Jodi Arias trial so there are A LOT of posts I want to respond to. So to avoid a mile long post I'll respond to a few in new posts.

Mays was planning on going to Wendy's after the verdict was read. Apparently these boys believed that they were good to go. That says a lot to me.

If this had not garnered national attention they probably would have been good to go:

http://jezebel.com/5990771/steubenv...-that-his-coach-took-care-of-rape-allegations

...Another series of texts Mays sent to his friends reveal that he'd been concerned about Steubenville football coach Reno Saccoccia's response to the event until the coach, according to Mays' texts, apparently gave him some reassuring news.

Saccoccia, reads one of Mays' text that prosecutors introduced Thursday, "took care of it." In another text, Mays adds, "Like, he was joking about it so I'm not worried."...

I believe the coach could have, and would have had the power to make this just go away. The national attention is what kept him from being able to do that. JMO

Fifty Bucks says I can guess what the first word these young men would scream if they just happen to fall asleep in the prison and someone decides to insert a finger somewhere permission had not been granted...any takers?

:violin:
RR!

It seems, IMO, that most people don't give a :censored: until something happens to them.

Do they have to register as sex offenders for the rest of their lives or until they turn 21?

That has yet to be decided.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/17/justice/ohio-steubenville-case

...The two will be required to register as sex offenders and undergo treatment while in detention. Lipps said he would postpone a hearing into which sexual offender registration category they will be classified until the end of their incarceration....

 

[Steely Dan]

I am going way off topic here, but I have a "pet peeve" that I want to express. As recently as a week ago (I think on Glee?) and quite often on other programs, I hear people referring to a lot of the 1980s John Hughes films as being really romantic. There's that image of John Cusack with the boombox over his head outside the home of the girl he is pursuing. It is even on T-Shirts! Every time I hear someone present this as an example of "romance" and "persistence paying off" I cringe. People... isn't continuing to chase someone who has said NO tantamount to STALKING? That seems to have been a HUGE theme in 80s films. The idea that we can't look back now and recognize the behavior as unhealthy, and even continue to see it as romantic worries me. A lot.

BBM

That's not an 80's phenomenon only. It continues til this day. I've always wondered about that. I can't remember if it was on this board or another one I post on, but there was an interesting thread. The thread was titled; "Things I have learned from watching movies." My response was; Beautiful women very often don't have boyfriends. When they meet a guy they don't like if he stalks them it's romantic and they never take out a restraining order. A woman will always succeed in changing a bad guy into a good guy. Of course none of that applies to the real world. I put it in the same category as an action hero pulling off a ridiculous stunt that would be impossible in the real world.

I also recall reading an article (don't ask for a link. I couldn't find it if I tried.) where a woman says that she turned down her now husband several times for dates before she agreed. (they worked together.) She said that would now be considered sexual harassment.

Hey, I am new to the thread just wondering if there is a link to the text messages found on the seized cell phones.

This is the best I can do right now. You'll need to make it full screen to read some of the texts at the end of the video. Even a lot of them are unreadable in full screen.

[video=youtube;iVkZelG-uEA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVkZelG-uEA[/video]

This is one of the most interesting exchanges, IMO;

 

[Elley Mae]

According to a CNN report, two girls who posted threatening tweets aimed at the female victim, were arrested Monday by sheriff’s deputies and state investigators. The report said that Jefferson County Sheriff Fred Abdalla confirmed that the girls, 15 and 16, are from Steubenville and were placed in a juvenile jail facility, awaiting an appearance before a judge on Tuesday.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/steubenville-coach-shield-prosecution-article-1.1292299

 

[Steely Dan]

I think they said they would appeal right after the verdict was read.

I think he should at least be able to appeal the lifetime sex offender status. A year in Juvie would be no picnic, but it won't ruin his life the way a lifetime sex offender status would. It seems way over the top, to me. I can't see that society is helped by making a young man virtually unemployable for life for his part in this.

it's also unfair, as the article states, that some were given immunity who participated in the way Malik did. I can't see that will stand up in court.

BBM

First, too bad for them. They are old enough to know what they did is wrong, they were VERY LUCKY to avoid being tried as adults. A lifetime of sex offender status is a walk in the park compared to what the victim will live with forever, and what she continues to go through, JMO

Secondly, I agree. However, to get convictions sometimes you have to do that in order to get the bigger fish. In mafia trials it's quite often that guys are given immunity for testifying against the higher ups. That's just the way it has to be done sometimes.

You can be sorry for your actions and still want to be able to have a life, IMHO. IMHO again, sex offender status should be for those who simply can't be trusted to be around society but we don't want to pay for locking them up. In my opinion again, it's the worst thing that can happen to you in the courts besides the death penalty. People who torture children to death over months or years get off much lighter than what Malik and Trent were sentenced to yesterday.

BBM

I'm not going to address the exact example that you use, but I will make a general point. It's true that justice isn't the same for everyone. There are people out there with a murder under their belt that get five years. Other's will get 25 to life for the exact same type of murder. I won't say the guy who gets 25 to life was treated unfairly. He probably deserved what he was sentenced to. The other guy got off lightly due to a variety of circumstances that may have been beneficial to him. Life's not fair, but just because some people get away with almost nothing doesn't mean that others should be given less as well. JMO

 

[Steely Dan]

I'm not sure how to cite a single source for this.

Look up anyone who tortured a child to death (NixMary Brown is probably a good example) or any other infamous horrific child killing.

They serve their sentence, they get out with a convicted felon record. So they can't vote, they can't have a firearm and it's harder to get a job.

They don't have to register, they aren't barred from being around children or schools and are free to associate with whoever they wish without posting signs in their yard.

It's not fair, in a case like this, IMHO.

BBM

IMO, oh well.

Whose on your short list for the GJ, folks? My money is on Coach Reno, the assistant coach, Jane Hanlin and at a minimum the three kids who testified under immunity in this trial.

In one of the articles I have yet to comment on they say that sixteen more kids are being investigated. They say nothing about adults. I wouldn't be surprised though if some were offered immunity for testifying against some adults. Jane Hanlin may be disbarred for ignoring Ohio State law about not serving on School Boards while being a judge. JMO

 

[Steely Dan]

I don't think the three kids who got immunity can be tried, can they? They were given immunity from charges so they would testify.

Can the court take that back and renig? I so, it seems like that would have a VERY chilling affect on other deals that suspects make for their testimony.

Immunity is usually limited, IIRC. They can't be tried for anything they testified to, but if they were involved in something else they could be. For instance, say they raped a girl at the party too and she comes forward. They could be tried for her rape because it has nothing to do with their testimony in the MR and TM case.

I'm thinking at least a few of the 16 that refused to testify - plus whatever ones LE had wanted DNA from - I believe Westlake was one of those. Can a GJ compel DNA? I still can't believe you can refuse a DNA - and that at trial the prosecution just said there were 3 samples found - but only 1 was ID'd.

JMHO

Warrants can be issued to obtain DNA, but without probable cause one won't be issued, most likely. Cops can follow a suspect and if they discard a cigarette butt or empty soda can into the trash the cops can pick it up and have it tested. if it matches the DNA they already have from the case then they can get a warrant for the suspect to come in and give their DNA. At least I recall seeing that on some true crime shows.

 

[Steely Dan]

Add to that, JD may also have trouble finding a job--if the psychological damage she's suffered becomes so great that she can't function normally.

So boo frickin hoo if they get lifetime sex offender status and have to register. I wouldn't want either of them living near or working in the same place as me nor any other female, and as far as I'm concerned any woman they may come in contact with them deserves fair warning of what they are. Their actions and lack of remorse clearly demonstrate their disdain for, disrespect for, and danger to women.

As another poster said upthread, I'm pretty tired of the euphemisms for their actions too. Rape is considered under our judicial system to be a violent crime, not a "mistake" or lapse of judgment. How in the world do you rape somebody by mistake?

And it's pretty clear from their (non) apologies that they are only sorry they got caught, not that they raped her in the first place. Even MR said he was "truly" sorry that the picture was taken. :furious:

But the most important point is that at least they had the benefit of the legal process. Unlike their victim, whom they acted as judge and jury to bestow a life sentence of trauma, shame, (ETA: threats of bodily harm,) and goodness knows what else. Compared to that, having to register as a lifetime sex offender is a picnic.

:goodpost:

Fell short? They didn't fall short, they raped a girl. It is their actions that ruined their life; there is no one else to blame but them.

:goodpost:

 

[Elley Mae]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/18/cnn-steubenville-rape-petition_n_2901462.html

Thousands of people have signed a petition calling on CNN to apologize for its controversial coverage of the Steubenville rape trial.

 

[Steely Dan]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2260990/EXCLUSIVE-Second-girl-sexually-assaulted-prom-party-attended-Ohio-high-school-footballers--just-FOURTEEN.html

From the article;



...When questioned about a complaint ‘strikingly similar to the current rape case,’ Jefferson County Sheriff Fred Abdalla confirmed: ‘That particular case, the mother brought her daughter in to tell us about something that allegedly happened in the City of Steubenville. So we sent them to the City of Steubenville police.’

When pressed as to whether or not any paperwork existed relating to the case the Sheriff said: ‘We may have a report that she came in but we wouldn’t have started any investigation because it wasn’t our investigation to start.’

He said: ‘The last I heard the girl had recanted and said it was consensual.’...

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...footballers--just-FOURTEEN.html#ixzz2Nz81EZ4c
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

First, she's 14 so there are a lot of guys who assaulted her who may be of age to be charged with statutory rape.

Second, she was probably bullied into recanting her story, IF she did recant it.

Third, the Sheriff is the ultimate authority in the county. This is a very small county and I'm sure it wouldn't inconvenience him too much to help with serious crimes of this nature. If he's not investigating things, what is he doing?

http://fox8.com/2013/03/18/death-threat-made-against-steubenville-victim/

(CNN) — Just 24 hours after two Steubenville high school football players were found guilty of rape, the victim is reportedly receiving death threats.

One 16-year-old female is in custody as is a 15-year-old female. They are suspected of making threats via Twitter against the victim, Jefferson County Sheriff Fred Abdalla said Monday

The sheriff said one threat was to assault the 16-year-old victim, while the other promised to kill the rape victim. Both teen suspects are Steubenville residents, Abdalla said.....

That's just sick. I can't help but notice the Sheriff got involved that one even though the two were Steubenville residents.

 

[believe09]

Um hm. My next son, after the first one I talked about, got a call from a girl who was wearing a bra and underwear and drunk and needed a ride home. THis is a model gorgeous girl, BTW. So he got in his car with a towel and drove her home wrapped in the towel and her undies. Untouched. That son got another call from a girl his freshman year in college who had swallowed a bunch of pills in an act of suicide, and he went to her dorm, carried her out to the hospital and called her mother in her home town. And he stayed with her for about 12 hours in the hospital, missing critical classes.

I get it that many boys have great character, as my sons do. I also believe, though, that boys who are offered something and take it aren't devils from the depths of evil, and shouldn't suffer life sentences as a sex offender for giving in.

And I believe in this case, they were offered favors. There may have been some who got something from a girl who was less responsive, but in general, she was awake enough to participate. From what I've read.

And that's not victim bashing. That's paraphrasing something that's been in the main stream news.

Yes it is. It is victim bashing. Whether or not it is your intention, you have made it loud and clear that you detest this victim. But, whether or not it is to your taste, the state of Ohio firmly and loudly states she was raped.

Any further disparaging of this victim has been prohibited by admin. It isnt a fuzzy line, it isnt a grey line, it is black and white. :banghead:

 

[Steely Dan]

CNN under fire for sympathetic reporting on ruined 'promising lives' of Steubenville rape students

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...Steubenville-rape-students.html#ixzz2Nuu9UF1t
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Here's the video;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=MvUdyNko8LQ#!

That's just disgusting. :furious:

 

[believe09]

The 16 who chose not to cooperate will be compelled to speak to a GJ. It is an invitation you cannot refuse. Hope they are weighing their options with the AG even as we post here.