OH - Three students killed in Chardon High School shooting, 27 Feb 2012

[gxm]

Glad you missed this part of the article:

The high court abolished the death penalty for juveniles in 2005 and ruled in 2010 that life sentences without parole for juveniles were unconstitutional except in cases of homicide.

This March (2012) SCOTUS will hear arguments to abolish the death penalty for juveniles convicted of a homicide. This will cover anyone under the age of 18 when their crime is committed, whether they are tried as an adult or not.

"In March, the U.S. Supreme Court will hear oral arguments in two cases that could determine whether life sentences without parole for juvenile killers is unconstitutional cruel and unusual punishment. Attorneys for the two 14-year-olds involved in the cases will argue forensic evidence shows adolescent brains are not fully developed and that teenagers consequently take too many risks, according to The Los Angeles Times."

I have to admit that I agree that adolescents' brains are not fully developed and do not agree with LWOP for 14-year olds. However, there is a huge difference between 17 and 14 and I'm wondering whether SCOTUS will vote this one down or lower the age limit for homicides. It's a strange coincidence that this case will be heard right on the heels of the Ohio tragedy. Can't help but wonder if this will weigh on the minds of any of the justices.

 

[AngelWings444]

This March (2012) SCOTUS will hear arguments to abolish the death penalty for juveniles convicted of a homicide. This will cover anyone under the age of 18 when their crime is committed, whether they are tried as an adult or not.

"In March, the U.S. Supreme Court will hear oral arguments in two cases that could determine whether life sentences without parole for juvenile killers is unconstitutional cruel and unusual punishment. Attorneys for the two 14-year-olds involved in the cases will argue forensic evidence shows adolescent brains are not fully developed and that teenagers consequently take too many risks, according to The Los Angeles Times."

I have to admit that I agree that adolescents' brains are not fully developed and do not agree with LWOP for 14-year olds. However, there is a huge difference between 17 and 14 and I'm wondering whether SCOTUS will vote this one down or lower the age limit for homicides. It's a strange coincidence that this case will be heard right on the heels of the Ohio tragedy. Can't help but wonder if this will weigh on the minds of any of the justices.

I misread it. I agree, there is a difference between a 14 year old and a 17 year old. Weren't these 14 year olds tried as adults? Ohio has a mandate that any person of the age of 16 or 17 and commits murder must be tried as an adult.

Confusing, but I really think it's about whether or not they can legally try 14 year olds as an adult, not the sentencing of a convicted juvenile tried in adult court. Gitana?? :waitasec:

ETA: Also, male brains are not fully developed until the age 25. Do we give male murderers passes up until the age of 25? I think not...

 

[gxm]

I misread it. I agree, there is a difference between a 14 year old and a 17 year old. Weren't these 14 year olds tried as adults? Ohio has a mandate that any person of the age of 16 or 17 and commits murder must be tried as an adult.

Confusing, but I really think it's about whether or not they can legally try 14 year olds as an adult, not the sentencing of a convicted juvenile tried in adult court. Gitana?? :waitasec:

Yes. It's very confusing. IMO, most folks agree that 16 and 17 are old enough to know better. Personally, I really draw the line at 14 or even 15. That's just my personal cutoff point. It's such a tragedy that we have 14-year old, and younger, murderers. I can see lowering the age limit, but a 17 year old who kills three students execution style is much much more than a "kid who isn't well." Man, but if that's not the understatement of the century!

It's freaky that the Supreme Court case is coming up right after this terrible tragedy. I wonder what, if any, impact it will have.

 

[AngelWings444]

Yes. It's very confusing. IMO, most folks agree that 16 and 17 are old enough to know better. Personally, I really draw the line at 14 or even 15. That's just my personal cutoff point. It's such a tragedy that we have 14-year old, and younger, murderers. I can see lowering the age limit, but a 17 year old who kills three students execution style is much much more than a "kid who isn't well." Man, but if that's not the understatement of the century!

It's freaky that the Supreme Court case is coming up right after this terrible tragedy. I wonder what, if any, impact it will have.

If Ohio has a law mandating all 16 and 17 year olds who murder with a firearm must be tried as an adult, wouldn't they have to overturn the mandate? Personally, I think they are just arguing that these two 14 year olds shouldn't have been tried as adults and therefore, they shouldn't have received LWOP.

We need a lawyer to follow this case.

 

[HMSHood]

Yes. It's very confusing. IMO, most folks agree that 16 and 17 are old enough to know better. Personally, I really draw the line at 14 or even 15. That's just my personal cutoff point. It's such a tragedy that we have 14-year old, and younger, murderers. I can see lowering the age limit, but a 17 year old who kills three students execution style is much much more than a "kid who isn't well." Man, but if that's not the understatement of the century!

It's freaky that the Supreme Court case is coming up right after this terrible tragedy. I wonder what, if any, impact it will have.

I think Lane premeditated the murder. Mass murderers do not snap.

 

[Betty P]

If Ohio has a law mandating all 16 and 17 year olds who murder with a firearm must be tried as an adult, wouldn't they have to overturn the mandate? Personally, I think they are just arguing that these two 14 year olds shouldn't have been tried as adults and therefore, they shouldn't have received LWOP.

We need a lawyer to follow this case.

The Supreme Court ruling referenced earlier stated that juveniles can't be sentenced to death. In March they will decide in a case whether Juveniles can be sentenced to life w/o parole. Juveniles can still be tried as adults, however.

 

[gxm]

I think Lane premeditated the murder. Mass murderers do not snap.

I agree. IMO he was planning this tragedy since at least December 30, 2011 when he posted that poem. JMO, MOO, OMO etc.

 

[JoeFromLB]

Prosecutor "this boy was not well"

Incredibly dumb thing to say. By all means, go ahead and give the defense some extra help.

"This boy was a cold-blooded killer" would have been far more appropriate.

I have a BAD feeling about this case.

 

[gxm]

If Ohio has a law mandating all 16 and 17 year olds who murder with a firearm must be tried as an adult, wouldn't they have to overturn the mandate? Personally, I think they are just arguing that these two 14 year olds shouldn't have been tried as adults and therefore, they shouldn't have received LWOP.

We need a lawyer to follow this case.

I think the argument is about the penalty allowed, not trying teens as adults. The way I'm reading it, trying teens as adults is not in question. But you are so right, we need a lawyer on this thread. Personally, I could really some help understanding all the details.

 

[AngelWings444]

I think the argument is about the penalty allowed, not trying teens as adults. The way I'm reading it, trying teens as adults is not in question. But you are so right, we need a lawyer on this thread. Personally, I could really some help understanding all the details.

Lets just hope it doesn't pass. Not all juvenile's should be given high sentences, but some absolutely deserve LWOP! TJ is one of them who deserves to never, ever see the light of day again.

 

[Spice]

I am not shocked to hear that the prosecutor stated that TJ "is not well" and that this had nothing to do with bullying or drugs.

We must get serious in this country about dealing with teenage depression. Recognizing it ,treating it, and ensuring as a society that all have access to treatment and counseling. If we don't we will continue to see tragedies such as this unfold and we will then in turn call TJ, a child himself, " a monster." I am not excusing his actions and there should be consequences but as other posters have noted, the adolescent brain is not fully developed, therefore, no matter how horrible his crime why should he be tried as an adult when is brain IS NOT like that of an adults? And it is not as basic as "knowing right from wrong". Frontal Lobe areas of the brain are not fully developed and they affect impulse control and decision making. Add the effects of trauma on the brain and you can end up with a total mess. Yes, it does affect the development of the brain, a brain that is not even finished being developed. I feel for the victims and their families first and foremost. I do think that we would be seriously remiss to paint TJ as a "monster" and "evil" without trying to understand (not excuse but understand) what happened to him in his life to shape him in this way?

This kids parents weren't even in the courtroom today. Really? He had loving grandparents that took care of him which is more than the scores of older foster children out there have. He should have been in counseling just to contend with the fact that his mother and father were absent and to deal with whatever trauma and dysfunction he may have gone through while in the home with them. Longterm, intensive therapy was definitely needed.

6% or 2 million kids in America are clinically depressed. What are we doing to deal with those numbers? Why, more than a decade after Columbine are we still having the same conversation as a nation after every one of these horrific school shootings? We are a reactionary society and I think we need to become more of a preventative / preemptive one. Especially when it comes to the issues that our children face. Sentencing children to death is barbaric in my opinion and has no place in a civilized society. Neither do violent school shootings. So what should we do to try and prevent the next one and the next one and the next one? And there will be others.

May the victims rest in peace and their families heal and may we take the time to take care of our children before it is too late.

If a suicide attempt is a cry for help, a shot is a scream of rage.

MOO

 

[gitana1]

gitana, I think the kids waited in the cafeteria to board buses that would either take them to the career center (where some of those shot were headed) or to lake academy (where TJ was headed)


I am so glad there were cameras in there!

I didn't know that. Thanks!

The prosecutor was in the hearing outlining the circumstances of the arrest of Lane, and said that Lane had told the police that the shooting was random, he did not target anyone, and that he did not know the people.

By the time of the press conference, there had been a gag order imposed, so the prosecutor was still able to say just a little bit because the press conference had already been scheduled, but he could only say a little and none of the others were allowed to say anything. The police, for example, could not confirm any of Lane's statements.

Perhaps what is meant here is that he said he just randomly decided to go on a shooting spree, not that he had any particular reason for doing so.

Sounds like they may go for some plea deal? Isn't it rare that a prosecutor says the suspect is "not well"?

Very rare. I think that slipped out. I also think it's correct. Any 17 year old who would do such a thing is not well. It's a sick thing to do on the part of a twisted individual.

I thought that remark was strange, too. I hope the prosecutor doesn't regret his words. jmo

He probably regretted them right away. But not to worry. There will be no successful insanity defense. Not well and not guilty by reason of insanity are tow completely different things. In fact, "insane" and "not guilty by reason of insanity" are two completely different things. It ain't gonna' happen in this case.

I think the argument is about the penalty allowed, not trying teens as adults. The way I'm reading it, trying teens as adults is not in question. But you are so right, we need a lawyer on this thread. Personally, I could really some help understanding all the details.

That's my understanding as well.

 

[AngelWings444]

With all due respect Spice, boys brains are not fully developed until the age of 25. Are you saying we should excuse everything they do until then? I think not. Plenty of kids witness DV, are depressed, abused, molested, beaten etc..and don't go shooting THREE kids in the back of the head. At 17, you know right from wrong...period.

JMO

 

[Spice]

With all due respect Spice, boys brains are not fully developed until the age of 25. Are you saying we should excuse everything they do until then? I think not. Plenty of kids witness DV, are depressed, abused, molested, beaten etc..and don't go shooting THREE kids in the back of the head. At 17, you know right from wrong...period.

JMO

I am not saying that we should EXCUSE anything. There must be consequences. Absolutely. He should go to a juvenile jail and for a good long time. But I am sorry, the death penalty is not one of them and neither is trying them as an adult. They are NOT adults, they do not make adult decisions, they do not even have the same brain as an adult. This won't be a popular opinion but it must be taken into consideration when dealing with juvenile crimes. The science is there and it is proven.

Also, we have been using the age "18" to gauge adulthood since the 1800's when we were an agricultural and farming society. People got married at the age of 13 and had many children by the age of 18. In the 1800's something was seriously wrong with you if you were not living the life of a "man." by then.

Times have changed drastically. The age 18 does not match the development of the adult brain. That much we know. But we still want to try children even under eighteen as adults. We don't expect an infant to think like a toddler or a toddler to think like an adolescent. So why do we expect an adolescent to act like an adult even though his brain will not be fully developed and have that capacity for another seven years? I really do ponder that question often when reading about juveniles being tried as adults for violent crimes.

 

[Bravo]

I dont know that anyone is excusing Lane. I know i'm not. Just trying to understand. Understand in hopes that some day some lives may be spared. Many depressed, abused etc. dont go on to shooting sprees. Some go on to suicide or become abusers,addicts etc. etc. Not all but the incidence is higher. MOO

 

[BD1]

With all due respect Spice, boys brains are not fully developed until the age of 25. Are you saying we should excuse everything they do until then? I think not. Plenty of kids witness DV, are depressed, abused, molested, beaten etc..and don't go shooting THREE kids in the back of the head. At 17, you know right from wrong...period.

JMO

No, I think Spice is saying we need to be identifying and treating these children. Or continue to pay the price, over and over and over...as evidenced all over this dang website. All these killers start out as unblameable children.

 

[AngelWings444]

I am not saying that we should EXCUSE anything. There must be consequences. Absolutely. He should go to a juvenile jail and for a good long time. But I am sorry, the death penalty is not one of them and neither is trying them as an adult. They are NOT adults, they do not make adult decisions, they do not even have the same brain as an adult. This won't be a popular opinion but it must be taken into consideration when dealing with juvenile crimes. The science is there and it is proven.

IMO - At 17, you know right from wrong. He deserves LWOP. IMO. To me, there isn't one ounce of sympathy for him. I know that sounds harsh, but I listen to the parents of the victims and I can't muster any pity for this pre-meditated crime. 3 murders! 3 kids who had dreams, goals, futures! Nope, not one ounce. He made a big boy decision, should deal with the big boy consequences.

Since Columbine, schools have changed, awareness and preventative actions have been taken. But for the fact, this school had procedures in place, this would have been so much worse. We can't parent and police every child. Not everything is forseeable and preventable.

I do think we should learn from this and do whatever possible to stop these "kids" who kill children. SCHOOLS SHOULD BE A SAFE ZONE, but those days are over. Sad, but true.

 

[Dr. Know?]

The link just says "stay strong, never forget" on twitter #chardon. Bless their hearts, too sad. Prayers to all. RIP boys.

http://yfrog.com/ody3ctzj

 

[AngelWings444]

The link just says "stay strong, never forget" on twitter #chardon. Bless their hearts, too sad. Prayers to all. RIP boys.

http://yfrog.com/ody3ctzj

Like I said earlier, these killers get so much attention, it makes me sick.

The victims deserve better. RIP to these young boys. I can't imagine burying my child. Praying for all the students, staff, families and the police/prosecution.

 

[cece5300]

The Supreme Court ruling referenced earlier stated that juveniles can't be sentenced to death. In March they will decide in a case whether Juveniles can be sentenced to life w/o parole. Juveniles can still be tried as adults, however.

I thought they said a minor could potentially serve LWOP in event of a homicide.