OH - Three students killed in Chardon High School shooting, 27 Feb 2012

[Nore]

http://www.wkyc.com/news/article/232936/396/Teen-in-Chardon-shootings-had-prior-run-in-with-police

You know you have to wonder how much of his fathers violence he actually was witness to

_____________
How much was inherited. :seeya:

 

[gitana1]

I am not saying that we should EXCUSE anything. There must be consequences. Absolutely. He should go to a juvenile jail and for a good long time. But I am sorry, the death penalty is not one of them and neither is trying them as an adult. They are NOT adults, they do not make adult decisions, they do not even have the same brain as an adult. This won't be a popular opinion but it must be taken into consideration when dealing with juvenile crimes. The science is there and it is proven.

Also, we have been using the age "18" to gauge adulthood since the 1800's when we were an agricultural and farming society. People got married at the age of 13 and had many children by the age of 18. In the 1800's something was seriously wrong with you if you were not living the life of a "man." by then.

Times have changed drastically. The age 18 does not match the development of the adult brain. That much we know. But we still want to try children even under eighteen as adults. We don't expect an infant to think like a toddler or a toddler to think like an adolescent. So why do we expect an adolescent to act like an adult even though his brain will not be fully developed and have that capacity for another seven years? I really do ponder that question often when reading about juveniles being tried as adults for violent crimes.

I understand what you are saying. To me, the victims and the shooter are boys. Kids. They think differently.

However, we create arbitrary ages when a child becomes an adult because we have to have some age. But it is arbitrary. And what that means to me is that some kids' brains are more mature than others at 17, some not as much as others at 19. It all depends.

I think the facts of each, serious juvenile case as well as the circumstances of the defendant need to be examined when determining if a kid should be tried as an adult, or not.

The law was changed to allow that because there were some really terrible cases out there, like the case of this 14 year old in Colorado who decided to murder a kid one day. He tried to lure a 2 year old out to "play" but his mother felt funny and wouldn't let him. He then went to the house of two, sweet little girls, one his classmate, and brutally stabbed them to death, nearly decapitating one or both, in the process. The family lost both their children that day and never had others.

The boy tried to hide what he had done. Didn't want to get caught.

I read a book about the case but can't recall the title or the names of victims or the murderer but he got out very quickly after serving time in a juvenile detention center. He moved to California after and had some trouble with the law but nothing significant.

Anyhow, he was a ruthless, frightening kid and it was in part due to his case that some of the juvenile laws were strengthened in Colorado.

I think some kids, like the monster who killed Elizabeth Olten, are too far gone. Too messed up to be released. At least until they are quite old.

I do have hope that some can change, that they will become different people. But it's a case by case thing and decisions should be based on that.

But we have to have stiff sentences for murder. Not every kid can be rehabilitated. Some are just so evil, it's too late, IMO.

for the victims!
http://www.cbsnews.com/2300-504083_162-10011473.html?tag=page
THEIR PICTURES AND STORIES

So sad. Looked like sweet kids. I cannot fathom how their families can survive.

I believe some people are just born evil. Just like you have babies with disabilities, babies addicted to drugs (parents fault), smarter kids etc...I don't think every single thing is a product of your environment, preventable, or curable.

Did/could anyone predict FCA would kill little Caylee, leave her in a swamp near the home? Does anyone think that ANY amount of therapy would help her? I don't.

I don't believe in the bad seed theory. Too much research shows that isn't a real phenomena. I think it is a combination of a propensity for sociopathy or evil, coupled with certain circumstances during childhood that nurture the propensity.

So sad. When these people heard their son was dead, they entered the gates of hell and will not escape until their own death. I know, I've been in hell for 8+ years after losing my 22 year old son.

Your post made me cry. God bless you and your beautiful son. You know how these parents are feeling right now.

 

[Dr. Know?]

And was he ever tomented during his younger years or even later by the family?

Guess that's for the experts but is something that I'd want to know. How did he get to that frame of mind? How do any of them. Their answers usually are senseless. Some just help you cope to understand this type situation. Not much more than that though sadly.

 

[AngelWings444]

http://www.wkyc.com/news/article/232936/396/Teen-in-Chardon-shootings-had-prior-run-in-with-police

You know you have to wonder how much of his fathers violence he actually was witness to
Add to it his uncle and brother...

No kidding! I hadn't read that yet. I'm sure there will be more. Then we have this from the article! How the heck does he get out int 7 months??? Our system is broken! All around, it's broken!

The most severe case involving Tim Lane occurred in 2002 after filing for divorce from his then wife. Court records say he strangled the woman until she lost consciousness, held her down and dumped water over her nose and mouth, and also threw the woman's head into the wall. Tom Lane was sentenced to four years in prison but served about seven months. He was then placed on probation.

 

[Dr. Know?]

There's an article I read today that said Tj's mom sent a letter to the courts asking for his father to be released because he was such a good dad to the other children. I don't have a link but think I read it here. I'll look if needed.

Asking for him to be released!! WTF! So there is some background to make this somewhat explainable or understanding. Don't think so, but the facts do help some I guess.

 

[snowdaze]

There's an article I read today that said Tj's mom sent a letter to the courts asking for his father to be released because he was such a good dad to the other children. I don't have a link but think I read it here. I'll look if needed.

Asking for him to be released!! WTF! So there is some background to make this somewhat explainable or understanding. Don't think so, but the facts do help some I guess.

Yes, I read that too! And don't you know that wonderful father wasn't present in court today.

 

[snowdaze]

_____________
How much was inherited. :seeya:

Not sure about inherited, but learned behavior. Children are sponges.

 

[hollyblue]

Looking through tweets to the above twitter account holder and found this...very, very disturbing and needs to go to LE NOW!

Text promising "more dead kids at Chardon"
https://twitter.com/#!/xsargex/status/174616704322768898/photo/1

OMG....I hope LE is on to this! Now look! https://twitter.com/#!/xsargex/status/174616704322768898/photo/1

 

[Irish_Eyes]

I haven't had time to read through all the many, many posts from today. I was suprised to see how active this thread has been. Locally, this is at the front of everyone's minds...it's all anyone is talking about.

At my son's school today they went over their lockdown plans in the classroom. It wasn't an all out drill, but just the teacher explaining what would happen in a drill or in a real situation. On one hand, it makes me sad that this is what it's come to today....that my son has to prepare for what to do if someone tries to shoot him and his friends...but I'm also glad, because we've seen that it's necessary.

It's also getting a little personal. My son is a few years younger, but looks more than a little like Lane. When he came into study hall today, one of the eighth grade girls thought it was funny to say "OMG, it's that Chardon kid, we're all going to die, everybody run!!" He pretty much shook it off but I felt bad for him.

Pretty much locally though, there is not a lot of anger here. At least not yet, I think it might be coming. Right now, here, it's still all about the victims...the lost, the recuperating, and the students and parents who weren't physically hurt, but are traumatized nonetheless. There is a lot of talk about Coach Hall and how he probably saved a lot more lives, at great personal risk to his own, and what a hero he is. There is talk about Demetrius and Russell and how their choice to be organ donors, and their families' support of that choice will allow some really good things to come out of what is otherwise a very desperately sad situation. There is a lot of talk about how superb the response by law enforcement was, how prepared and professional and compassionate the school faculty and administration has been, and even how respectful the local media has for the most part behaved in their coverage. It's a lot of kumbaya, and it may not last, but locally, it seems to be what feels right for now.

 

[Dr. Know?]

Not sure about inherited, but learned behavior. Children are sponges.

I do think the lack of dopomine, saratonin, etc...might be inherited or depleted via drugs, alcohol, poor diet whatever & etc..

Enough of trying to figure out TJ. I'm just sad about this horrible horrible loss of our youth. They all had goals, futures, lives that have been stopped short. Their parents heartbreak is just knee bending to me. Bless them all.

My prayers are for Daniel, Russell & Demetrius. RIP. Strength to Chardon. xoxo

 

[Irish_Eyes]

OMG....I hope LE is on to this! Now look! https://twitter.com/#!/xsargex/status/174616704322768898/photo/1

I can't find the actual Facebook for this person....but I'm so bad at that. Can anyone else find it? (I know we can't post it here, but if someone can find it, I think it should be called in for sure.)

 

[snowdaze]

I haven't had time to read through all the many, many posts from today. I was suprised to see how active this thread has been. Locally, this is at the front of everyone's minds...it's all anyone is talking about.

At my son's school today they went over their lockdown plans in the classroom. It wasn't an all out drill, but just the teacher explaining what would happen in a drill or in a real situation. On one hand, it makes me sad that this is what it's come to today....that my son has to prepare for what to do if someone tries to shoot him and his friends...but I'm also glad, because we've seen that it's necessary.

It's also getting a little personal. My son is a few years younger, but looks more than a little like Lane. When he came into study hall today, one of the eighth grade girls thought it was funny to say "OMG, it's that Chardon kid, we're all going to die, everybody run!!" He pretty much shook it off but I felt bad for him.

Pretty much locally though, there is not a lot of anger here. At least not yet, I think it might be coming. Right now, here, it's still all about the victims...the lost, the recuperating, and the students and parents who weren't physically hurt, but are traumatized nonetheless. There is a lot of talk about Coach Hall and how he probably saved a lot more lives, at great personal risk to his own, and what a hero he is. There is talk about Demetrius and Russell and how their choice to be organ donors, and their families' support of that choice will allow some really good things to come out of what is otherwise a very desperately sad situation. There is a lot of talk about how superb the response by law enforcement was, how prepared and professional and compassionate the school faculty and administration has been, and even how respectful the local media has for the most part behaved in their coverage. It's a lot of kumbaya, and it may not last, but locally, it seems to be what feels right for now.

I'm sorry your son was put through that. Some never learn. But thanks for the update. I have many relatives in that area and I grew up east of Cleveland myself. Sounds like a community trying to heal. :grouphug:

 

[Irish_Eyes]

Chardon police are already aware of the Little Dip post, and they are looking into it.

 

[AngelWings444]

I do think the lack of dopomine, saratonin, etc...might be inherited or depleted via drugs, alcohol, poor diet whatever & etc..

Enough of trying to figure out TJ. I'm just sad about this horrible horrible loss of our youth. They all had goals, futures, lives that have been stopped short. Their parents heartbreak is just knee bending to me. Bless them all.

My prayers are for Daniel, Russell & Demetrius. RIP. Strength to Chardon. xoxo

BBM. AMEN!!!!!!! A gazillion Amen's!!

 

[hollyblue]

JMO, but seems the problem would be getting the troubled teens to talk. Most do not, if they do their freinds really don't take them seriously. Red flag, if true, he didn't have any close friends. He "talked" thru his FB, and it wasn't caught. Red flag neglected. The biggest problem is he prolly knew something wasn't right and didn't know exactly why or how to handle it properly. He was just mad about "it". Where did the pic of him with the two guns come from.....and who took it?

In the 70's we had alternative schools for troubled teens, but there was no busing for them, their parents had to take them. Seem illogical to have a child who can't handle a regular school atomsphere catch a bus from it. IMO

 

[bessie]

sleeLOL

 

[TGIRecovered]

:waitasec:

sleeLOL

What's sleeLOL?

 

[doubt]

The victims of the Columbine shooting couldn't focus on the killers because they killed themselves. They didn't have to worry about them ever walking our streets or hurting our children again. The parents did put the blame solely on the guy who sold the minors the gun, their own words. As the judge in that case said, justice will never be served.

The film sounds interesting. Don't know if I can stomach it though...

not every columbine has been quoted nor has every columbine parent spoken in court, so i don't think anyone will ever know every feeling they have about blame....nor is it our business.

my point was that, in the aftermath of these incidents, it is common to attack the families of the perpetrators. personally, i am not so sure that's the most effective way to respond. it may be natural, but i don't see how it leads to any long-term change.

i get that some will disagree, but i truly believe that at least some of these mass-killing youngsters come from families that are no more dysfunctional that the average american family on the average block in the average city. this really can happen anywhere, and to anyone.

 

[doubt]

the video in which the prosecutor speaks of how this is a case involving a child who is not well leads me to believe they won't look to send tj to jail.

and if they do, a good defense attorney will play this video back in court. i have never heard a prosecutor speak that way so early on, if ever.

 

[nursebeeme]

Since the shootings, some had speculated that Lane was bullied. Others said a former friend stole his girlfriend. There was a rumor about a beef over drugs.
But Joyce said Lane simply "was not well."
"This was an aberration," Joyce said at a news conference after Lane's appearance in Geauga County Juvenile Court.
While in court, Joyce said Lane told authorities that he did not pick targets.
"He chose them randomly," he said.
But some of the students who were shot had known Lane, at least since middle school. Some rode a bus with him each day. Others were Facebook friends of his.
Witnesses said he was silent and expressionless before and during the shooting. One saw him in a bathroom before the shooting peering at himself in a mirror.
After Lane fled the school, he sat -- alone -- on the side of Woodin Road waiting for deputies to come get him. When they arrived, he stood calmly as a deputy clasped handcuffs over his wrists.

http://www.cleveland.com/chardon-shooting/index.ssf/2012/02/suspected_chardon_shooter_appe.html


wow... ((bbm))