Ohio Bill Would Make Abortion Illegal Without Paternal Consent

[sherri79]

ty for your words nova. i think i am done with this thread. it was nice to once again be able to speak to you about a matter we can not agree on in a reasoned tone. i would rather leave this thread on that note.

 

[Nova]

ty for your words nova. i think i am done with this thread. it was nice to once again be able to speak to you about a matter we can not agree on in a reasoned tone. i would rather leave this thread on that note.

I certainly hope I didn't chase you away, sherri. I know we sometimes disagree, but it has always been respectful between us.

I certainly never meant to imply that your views on abortion are anything but principled and well reasoned.

Unfortunately, public debate on this subject is often anything but (on both sides), and a lot of us tend to respond to the craziest arguments we hear in the media.

(ETA: if have things to add that you don't want to post in public, you are always free to PM me, sherri. I will be happy to read anything you want to write.)

 

[deanws]

((((At best, this is merely my opinion. At worst, this isn't even my opinion; it's just something I made up to cause trouble.)))))


THIS CRACKED ME UP NOVA! :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

 

[sherri79]

I certainly hope I didn't chase you away, sherri. I know we sometimes disagree, but it has always been respectful between us.

I certainly never meant to imply that your views on abortion are anything but principled and well reasoned.

Unfortunately, public debate on this subject is often anything but (on both sides), and a lot of us tend to respond to the craziest arguments we hear in the media.

(ETA: if have things to add that you don't want to post in public, you are always free to PM me, sherri. I will be happy to read anything you want to write.)

nova please dont think for 1 second you upset me hun. we allways disagree but i have nothing but respect for you. i will pm you and give details. :blowkiss:

 

[Autumn2004]

I am sorry about your cousin. I'm sorry he felt suicide was the answer to his problems.

That's great that you will gladly adopt your daughter's child if she ever got pregnant. You're too good. But no one is forcing her to have an abortion, if the guy who got her pregnant asks her to have an abortion, its her right to say "no" and that's what being pro-choice is all about. Its about being able to make a choice for your body and yourself.

I'm confused here though? I thought pro-lifers believe women should face the consequences of their actions and accept responsibility for getting pregnant in the first place? My question is, how is taking in your daughter's baby going to teach her to be responsible for her actions?

Im prolife, I truly believe that every baby is a gift. It is part of my religion but going through infertility when I wanted very much what so many women and girls throw away made me realize how special and how hard they can be to come by, even with fertility treatments there are many who will never give birth to a baby. I sincerely hope many women look at adoption as being available.

Im not a hard jerk though, I always feel you should help others in need. I do it every year I donate to a charity for young moms who need help with clothes and baby equipment. I also donate each year to help families who are not able to to have christmas for their kids, toys for tots.

I do not feel they should "tough it out" ever. Raising children is not easy . I would not want her to ever miss out on an education just to me teaching her a lesson. I feel it is my job to be there for her along the way to support her and encourage her. I did not receive that as a child and it is very important to me that she feels always loved and that she can always come to me. It would have changed many things for me if I felt I had that. She is going to be responsible for many things throughout her life, she is now with picking up her toys I am prolife but Im also supportive of my child. I may not agree with her decisions but she will always feel the love from me.

I hope for adoption options but it is not my place to judge anyone's decisions. I guess Im in the middle not really prolife 100% but not prochoice, but I am 100% supportive of my daughter.

 

[Autumn2004]

Infertility sucks! We tried really hard for almost five years for a viable pregnancy. Luckily we found the right doctor and he helped make our family complete. I know just how much you love your daughter because I am the same way with my children.

Do you want the option of abortion to be there for your daughter? To me, that is what directs my feelings.

Amanda, my daughter, is 17. As much as I hope and pray that she won't become pregnant until she is ready, that is all it is. If she did find herself in that situation, I would help her explore all of her options. I really, really love babies so I wouldn't mind if she did go through with an unplanned pregnancy. However, I also know what it is to be alone through a pregnancy and being the one with all of the responsibility, the one looked down upon because you have a child out of wedlock. (Even though a heck of a lot of people doing the looking were pregnant before they married.) If she chose to have an abortion, I would understand and support her decision.

It don't think it is an easy decision for anyone. I am just glad the option is available.

Infertility does suck, it sucks the life out of you as you feel so cheated. Im sorry you had to go through it too. I never understood looking down at someone being pregnant out of wedlock, it makes no sense since most that do look down upon you had sex before they were married they just didnt get caught I had sex before I was married so it could have easily been me, yes I used birth control but sometimes those methods dont work.

Do I want the option open? Thats a hard one for me. I dont like babies suffering but are they still going to suffer regardless of laws? I dont want dead women and mangled babies from illegal abortions and I dont want more babies in dumpsters. Thank goodness its not up to me to decide.

 

[zadari]

i dont like the idea of being told i have to have a child if i dont want to .. granted there is birth control but its not always fool proof . there are alot of good men out there that want to be good fathers but alot of them would just abuse that power . such as a man that made a comment to a friend years ago " oh i just thought it was time you were tied down to a child " yet he never helped her with a damn thing she went through it all alone .no person should have that power over another person .. if they pass this bill they might as well put the words obey your husband back in the marriage vows . i say screw that ... i will not obey anyone unless it pertains to breaking the law ect .

 

[Details]

I recently went through pregnancy - the more I know about it, the more pro-choice I am. Aside from all of the issues about when the brain first develops, embreo, etc. - we have a life that will only happen if someone decides to sacrifice their own body for it.

We don't make that a requirement anywhere else. If you get tested for a bone marrow match, match to a person dying of leukemia - you aren't required to be a donor - even as low risk and short term as that minor donation is, even if that person will die without your bone marrow. Or, for a better analogy - should you be forced to donate a kidney (you can spare one!) if someone needs it, and you're a match? A liver lobe? Heck, you can't even be forced to donate blood!

But, let a woman get pregnant, any which way, and she's suddenly expected to sacrifice her body for 9 months - actually, more like a year and a half. Men don't have that penalty. 9 months - morning sickness for 3-4, serious extra weight for 3, a few hours of pain, some days of recuperation, in the best of cases. In 20%, you get gestational diabetes - a pretty serious problem - you become diabetic, 50% of the time (1 out of every 10 pregnancies!), it becomes permanent within 5 years. There's all kinds of other fun problems - I got AFLP to go with my gestational diabetes, my sister got some fun preeclampsia, my other sister had a wonderful pregnancy, relatively, but delivery broke her tailbone - it can't be fixed. Real life-threatening and life changing consequences exist for women that don't for men, even if they take all of the financial burden of a child.


Birth control isn't foolproof, people make mistakes, and pregnancy is too much to put someone unwilling through. The first 3 months, no brain waves means to me there is nothing human, nor even animal there (even a cat has brain waves), I see no reason why any woman should be forced to continue at that stage. In the second trimester, it's a bit different, there's more there, but if there are real medical reasons, then, again, the life of the mother takes precedent. In the last trimester - it had better be true, life-threatening issues - and these do exist. But the father - no, he's not doing the pregnancy. If he is so concerned about the lives of the children he creates, he had better talk to the woman about it BEFORE he has any type of sex at all.

 

[Details]

I wonder why that's never the solution? Why isn't it the prospective father's responsibility to not have sex with any woman unless he's made sure she's willing to be a baby carrier for him? Sounds to me like he's being very irresponsible, if he cares so much for what happens to his seed, but doesn't check which woman he's chosen.

I'd say he needs to use protection, or better still, be celibate if he is so concerned that he might concieve a child that he doesn't want aborted.



Why is that never the solution? Takes two to tango!

 

[Amraann]

Im prolife, I truly believe that every baby is a gift. It is part of my religion but going through infertility when I wanted very much what so many women and girls throw away made me realize how special and how hard they can be to come by, even with fertility treatments there are many who will never give birth to a baby. I sincerely hope many women look at adoption as being available.

Im not a hard jerk though, I always feel you should help others in need. I do it every year I donate to a charity for young moms who need help with clothes and baby equipment. I also donate each year to help families who are not able to to have christmas for their kids, toys for tots.

I do not feel they should "tough it out" ever. Raising children is not easy . I would not want her to ever miss out on an education just to me teaching her a lesson. I feel it is my job to be there for her along the way to support her and encourage her. I did not receive that as a child and it is very important to me that she feels always loved and that she can always come to me. It would have changed many things for me if I felt I had that. She is going to be responsible for many things throughout her life, she is now with picking up her toys I am prolife but Im also supportive of my child. I may not agree with her decisions but she will always feel the love from me.

I hope for adoption options but it is not my place to judge anyone's decisions. I guess Im in the middle not really prolife 100% but not prochoice, but I am 100% supportive of my daughter.

I really liked this post.

I am totally pro-choice... However I can empathize as to why someone in need of fertility help would be opposed to abortion..
The problem IMO is the notion that these women who cannot acquire an abortion will then make this baby available for adoption.
If it were simply that black and white it would be great.
All to often we read just how that is not the case.

I imagine that this proposed law will in many cases become a means of control by some men.
I am further bothered by the rape clause. This is simply setting the womens right movement back 40 years.
Say the man refuses, yet then does not agree to adoption .... then refuses to pay child support??
Even navigating those things legally could take years ... in the mean time what is the mother suppose to do? What happens to these unwanted children?

 

[Nova]

I recently went through pregnancy - the more I know about it, the more pro-choice I am. Aside from all of the issues about when the brain first develops, embreo, etc. - we have a life that will only happen if someone decides to sacrifice their own body for it.

We don't make that a requirement anywhere else. If you get tested for a bone marrow match, match to a person dying of leukemia - you aren't required to be a donor - even as low risk and short term as that minor donation is, even if that person will die without your bone marrow. Or, for a better analogy - should you be forced to donate a kidney (you can spare one!) if someone needs it, and you're a match? A liver lobe? Heck, you can't even be forced to donate blood!

But, let a woman get pregnant, any which way, and she's suddenly expected to sacrifice her body for 9 months - actually, more like a year and a half. Men don't have that penalty. 9 months - morning sickness for 3-4, serious extra weight for 3, a few hours of pain, some days of recuperation, in the best of cases. In 20%, you get gestational diabetes - a pretty serious problem - you become diabetic, 50% of the time (1 out of every 10 pregnancies!), it becomes permanent within 5 years. There's all kinds of other fun problems - I got AFLP to go with my gestational diabetes, my sister got some fun preeclampsia, my other sister had a wonderful pregnancy, relatively, but delivery broke her tailbone - it can't be fixed. Real life-threatening and life changing consequences exist for women that don't for men, even if they take all of the financial burden of a child.


Birth control isn't foolproof, people make mistakes, and pregnancy is too much to put someone unwilling through. The first 3 months, no brain waves means to me there is nothing human, nor even animal there (even a cat has brain waves), I see no reason why any woman should be forced to continue at that stage. In the second trimester, it's a bit different, there's more there, but if there are real medical reasons, then, again, the life of the mother takes precedent. In the last trimester - it had better be true, life-threatening issues - and these do exist. But the father - no, he's not doing the pregnancy. If he is so concerned about the lives of the children he creates, he had better talk to the woman about it BEFORE he has any type of sex at all.

Great post, Details. I hadn't thought of the kidney transplant analogy before. I know it isn't a perfect comparison (and you weren't saying it is), but it is certainly food for thought.

I also like the way you break down the trimesters. My thinking is very much the same.

 

[Details]

Great post, Details. I hadn't thought of the kidney transplant analogy before. I know it isn't a perfect comparison (and you weren't saying it is), but it is certainly food for thought.

I also like the way you break down the trimesters. My thinking is very much the same.

The trimesters are very important - there's a huge difference between an abortion a few months in, and something late term. And the law reflects that too - what I described is pretty much what the law is everywhere.

Yeah, a friend of mine showed that one to me - there was an article in the paper - a person had agreed to be tested to see if they were a match to a child needing a bone marrow donation - and they were! But then they backed out - worried about the risks (which are extremely small). And the paper was talking about how sad it was, and all that - but not the slightest suggestion that this person who had agreed to all this testing, gotten the family's hopes up, should be forced to go through with the donation.