GUILTY OK - Christopher Lane, 22, Australian, slain in thrill killing, Duncan, 16 Aug 2013

[ATasteOfHoney]

Yeah. About a year ago I was on a shuttle bus from the Los Angeles airport to a hotel. There was an Aussie couple in front of me.

After a bit of friendly chat I told them to watch out because certain areas of Los Angeles were dangerous. Told them be careful where they go, pay attention to their surroundings, if it seems bad get out. The male confidently said "All people are the same, just people, we will be fine" while the woman looked over at me and got the message.

:banghead:

 

[colette]

I haven't been keeping up with this thread, sorry, but I have been looking for audio of the FULL 911 call. Anyone have a link? TIA

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-08-22/listen-to-the-911-call/4904272

 

[Karmady]

Yes .. our strict laws have made many Aussies very naïve.

We think of the US as Disneyland, Hollywood, New York, the Grand Canyon and Niagara Falls.

Unless we have lived in the US, we don’t really get the level of senseless violence, the prejudices, and the fact that there are very dangerous residential areas to be in.

I think that may change now though. Some well-respected, prominent Aussie citizens are being very vocal.

Everyone in most first world countries think it's safe to go almost anywhere in any other first world country. That's simply not the case. Most of the United States is very safe. Including, especially, disneyland, the grand canyon and most places tourists are likely to wind up. I travel to the UK and the rest of Europe without hesitation even though crazies occasionally blow things up or behead people in the streets. When I'm there, I don't deliberately go into neighborhoods that are obviously dangerous. Same goes for the US. jmo

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

Okay so I'll be brave, take the leap, and call it as I see it. All IMHO.
Some of my possible theories that cause the social unrest as it pertains to this case in particular as I see it from my perspective here in the States:

1. The "war on drugs" ....yes, the ying and yang of it. People still do drugs so an entire system of selling/transporting/packaging/creating it exists in an underground sort of way. This creates a violent society and a gangs.
2. Welfare where minorities were able to 'collect' only if the household consisted of single mom's raising children (as reportedly happened during the 60's and 70's). This provokes a breakdown of a family structure.
3. Any race that harbors resentment of it's treatment for generations about things that happened in the past. This provokes anger which will be unleashed invariably. Right or wrong, correct or incorrect---> it is what it is and there are more than one race that I feel experiences this. And I feel there are people that purposely stir this up for political reasons. Some suspect that our leaders want to 'divide and conquer'.....but who knows?
4. Private prisons that make money based on prison counts (i.e. how many prisoners do they have = more money) and how they can keep them in jail so the prisons themselves stay funded. This additionally facilitates repeat offenders (recidivism). Overcrowded public prisons let the offenders out too early which is another problem.
5. Violent video games: yes, I believe they desensitize and almost 'brainwash' our youth into violence.
6. Social Media, Music, and Hollywood: Yep, I'm lumping them together 'cause they are so meaningless and yet are so responsible for directing the social norms of the day. Anything goes nowadays and bad behavior is glorified.
7. It's a 2-income society due to inflation (that is, if a marriage even survives; we're at a 50% divorce rate). So who is really raising our youth? Who has time? And what will become of a teen who can't cut it in school?
8. The decline of neighborhoods. "It takes a village to raise a child".....where's our villages? We have either urban sprawl or we have cities. There are few true neighborhoods left.
9. The decline of popularity in churches. Believe or not believe in a higher power---> somehow it gives many a conscience not to kill if they believe. It's one of the 'biggie' rules; thou shall not kill. Attendance at church is shrinking.
10. Income disparity. We are a nation of 'haves' and 'have nots'. The American Dream is a remote fairy tale for most as it is a true exception for an individual to get out of the ghetto. It is an exception to break the mold of a previous generation (alcoholism, lack of higher education, single-parent, welfare, etc)
11. America has historically been a violent nation. It started out that way to begin with (1776) and we have been involved in most major wars all over the world for hundreds of years now. Many Americans don't want to be involved in all these wars but we don't get to vote on it---we blink our eyes and our leaders have our boys marching in! We have a fairly frail sense of culture 'cause we are a melting pot of many cultures due to massive immigration out of Europe and Asia and the importing of slaves. I'd like to think America was a true 'melt' but maybe it wasn't? It is a lot to expect of people to not clash based on our quick growth and expansion as a nation with so much input from folks all over the world. Maybe it wasn't as successful as we'd like to believe?

But I feel that we need to have research and stats to look at the data and then try to address where the root causes of our violent society lie.
Please don't confuse the USA with anywhere else.....we are like an 'experiment' in some ways.
And the violence is getting very bad......I'm sorry to say.

Thank you all for listening to my long-winded theories about American violence and our youth. All moo.
:seeya:

 

[ArianeEmory]

I'm sorry to break in here like a screeching record, but haven't violent crimes been decreasing across the board in the U.S. since the mid 90s or so?

I would also tend to argue against the idea that lack of church attendance = agnosticism or atheism, or that agnostics or atheists are inherently more violent. I think a lot of people have just lost faith in organized religion, while retaining a belief in God.

Other than that, and not being sure that violent crime is actually increasing in the U.S, (will read stats if wrong), enjoying reading everyone's civil observations.

 

[ArianeEmory]

CNN article that came up when I was trying to check my assertion that violence has been decreasing. I don't know if people will assume CNN has an agenda, but here it is anyway:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/23/justice/random-killings/

But perceptions of crime haven't always followed the reality.
In May, a Pew Research Center study found that 56% of Americans believe that gun violence is higher than it was 20 year ago, even though it has fallen precipitously since the 1990s.
And in 2011, Gallup found that 68% of Americans believed crime was getting worse, despite the reality of declining crime rates nationwide.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

I'm sorry to break in here like a screeching record, but haven't violent crimes been decreasing across the board in the U.S. since the mid 90s or so?

I would also tend to argue against the idea that lack of church attendance = agnosticism or atheism, or that agnostics or atheists are inherently more violent. I think a lot of people have just lost faith in organized religion, while retaining a belief in God.

Other than that, and not being sure that violent crime is actually increasing in the U.S, (will read stats if wrong), enjoying reading everyone's civil observations.

It appears that YOUTHFUL violent crime is increasing.
But we need more data and statistics.

 

[ArianeEmory]

It appears that YOUTHFUL violent crime is increasing.
But we need more data and statistics.

I agree that the ages are troubling, and that we are seeing more individual instances of horrifying gun violence from them (e.g. Sandy Hook); I disagree that tourists or the typical American residents are suddenly at greater risk of being a victim of violent crime. I'd also like to stress that, as a resident of a fairly standard US metro, I live my life just like anyone. Go to work, go to restaurants, buy gas, etc., without fear of gun violence. It's not the Wild West that is sort of being implied here. We do have a "bad" part of town, and that's where the shootings that do happen, happen--and they are typically gang-on-gang.

Short version: I don't think anyone should cancel their travel plans.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

I agree that the ages are troubling, and that we are seeing more individual instances of horrifying gun violence from them (e.g. Sandy Hook); I disagree that tourists or the typical American residents are suddenly at greater risk of being a victim of violent crime. I'd also like to stress that, as a resident of a fairly standard US metro, I live my life just like anyone. Go to work, go to restaurants, buy gas, etc., without fear of gun violence. It's not the Wild West that is sort of being implied here. We do have a "bad" part of town, and that's where the shootings that do happen, happen--and they are typically gang-on-gang.

Short version: I don't think anyone should cancel their travel plans.

I will repeat, my post postulates and theorizes that there is a growing trend of youthful violence in the USA today. Not necessarily with guns.
And if this trend continues, it is worrisome.
This is how I see it and I definately don't live as carefree or without fear as I used to even 5 years ago.
Just look at some of the WS threads here about teens that have killed recently.
The case of the WWII Veteran who was in his 80's beaten to death with a flashlight by teens is particularly sad.

 

[ArianeEmory]

I don't think we are fundamentally disagreeing about the concern about young offenders. I'm not dismissing that issue, just presenting a data counterpoint to other posts (not just yours) implying that the U.S. is turning into one big firing range.

(I'm a liberal handgun owner in favor of tighter gun control, so I have no agenda to push, I'm just also in favor of making people less afraid if the information supports it.)

 

[momrids6]

I will repeat, my post postulates and theorizes that there is a growing trend of youthful violence in the USA today. Not necessarily with guns.
And if this trend continues, it is worrisome.
This is how I see it and I definately don't live as carefree or without fear as I used to even 5 years ago.
Just look at some of the WS threads here about teens that have killed recently.
The case of the WWII Veteran who was in his 80's beaten to death with a flashlight by teens is particularly sad.

I have not looked at data- but from what I see/read, etc. it seems that the the severity of the violence is greater- and simply more brutal.

Some of it seems to be a manner of "dealing" with a problem- by brutally killing the other person; instead of walking away, talking it out-or even an old fashioned one on one fist fight.

Could it be the stress of adult problems some youth have to deal with- and they do not have the coping/reasoning /critical thinking skills?

ETA: I mean- when we were teens, the "worst " thugs knocked an old lady down and took her purse- now they shoot or stab or beat the old lady dead and steal her purse.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

Interestingly, I found this article from the NY Times 1995. Read it and weep.



Grim Forecast Is Offered On Rising Juvenile CrimeBy FOX BUTTERFIELD
Published: September 08, 1995

If current trends continue, the number of arrests of juveniles for violent crimes will double by the year 2010, the Justice Department said today in the most comprehensive report ever assembled on crimes committed by young people.

The report based its projection on a finding that arrest rates among juveniles ages 10 to 17 for violent crimes jumped 100 percent between 1983 and 1992, and the number of teen-agers in the population was expected to increase 20 percent over the next decade.

The report also calls into question some of the most popular crime prevention programs adopted by cities, states and the Federal government in the past few years, including curfews and midnight basketball leagues. The report found, for example, that the peak time during which youths age 6 to 17 commit violent crimes was from 3 to 6 P.M., between the end of the school day and dinner.

James Alan Fox, dean of the college of criminal justice at Northeastern University, said the new figures on the time at which young people commit crimes showed that "we can't leave it to families" to solve the problem of juvenile violence. "The families aren't available, and it's often not out of choice," Professor Fox said. "They are off working out of economic necessity and it leaves kids idle, unsupervised with little to do except hang out with their friends."

 

[teedie2]

Ohhh merda...

www.duncanbanner.com/duncanbanner/db_293436/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=KNupT5E8

Murder weapon still missing
08/22/2013 2:34 PM

Snipped:
According to the affidavit, Shoemake said he Jones wasn’t going to talk, he would take him back to the cell. Jones said he couldn’t tell the detective who shot Lane because if he did, “he would get killed.”
As Jones was being escorted back to his cell, Shoemake talked to him and said they needed to find the gun so a child wouldn’t find it and get hurt. Jones told him that the gun had been given to someone else.
“Someone that had two brothers inside the jail,” Jones said, according to the affidavit.
Shoemake said that could be a lot of people.
Jones, according to the affidavit, responded, “He has two brothers in here for armed robbery.”

Snipped:
What they did find in their search was a .22 caliber bullet located under the cold air inductor, a large amount of .22 LR and .22 short bullets inside the main fuse box and one spent .22 LR case under the back seat cushion. Also a 12 gauge disassembled shotgun was found in the trunk of the car under the spare tire, all listed in the affidavit.
Officers visited the individual they believed might have had the gun, who gave them permission to search his residence. No gun was located. The man told Sgt. Danny Foraker that all three boys had come to his house, but he did not want to get involved.
The affidavit noted that the boys left the residence and did not leave a gun there.

So either the killers left the pistol with this man or they got rid of it somewhere else before they went to their "friend" CJ's house to kill him ... LE arrested the three at the Johnson house, and they didn't have the pistol.

What were they going to kill him with, the shotgun? And I wonder who was going to pull the trigger.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

This is from 2007 NBC News/AP Press:


updated 5/15/2007 2:00:09 PM ET

WASHINGTON — Increasing violence among teenagers and other youths appears to have contributed to a nationwide crime spike, the Justice Department said Tuesday.

Gangs and gun violence are partly to blame for the rise in crime that is on pace to increase for the second straight year, says Attorney General Alberto Gonzales in a prepared speech.

In response, the Justice Department is pledging to spend nearly $50 million this year to combat gangs and guns, and will push Congress to enact new laws to let the federal government better investigate and prosecute violent crime.

FBI data from last fall show violent crimes, including murders and robberies, rose by 3.7 percent nationwide during the first six months of 2006. Those findings came on top of a 2.2 percent crime hike in 2005 — the first increase since 2001.

Results of study into rising crime
Faced with the discouraging data, Gonzales last fall ordered a study of 18 cities and suburban regions to show why crime is surging.

According to Gonzales’ prepared remarks and a Justice Department fact sheet, obtained by The Associated Press, the study found:
•That a growing number of offenders appear to be younger, and their crimes more violent, and that laws in some states provide few, if any, tough penalties on juvenile offenders.
•Many youths have little parental oversight and are too easily influenced by gang membership and glamorized violence in popular culture.
•Loosely organized gangs present the biggest concern for law enforcement officials because they are hard to investigate and their members often commit random acts of crime out of self-protection.
•Offenses committed by people using firearms pose a major threat not only to communities, but also to police. So-called “straw purchases,” where gun owners buy their firearms through a go-between, is an area of concern.

The Justice Department plans to distribute $18 million in grants nationwide this year to prevent and reduce illegal gun sales and other firearms crimes.

Gonzales also will announce spending $31 million in new funds this year to combat gangs, according to the Justice Department fact sheet. The department also is working on a new crime bill to help federal authorities assist local and state police in cases involving juvenile crime.

 

[momrids6]

The mid 90s (1995 specifically) are when violent crime started to drop, very unexpectedly, after lots of dire predictions like the NYT article. There are some interesting theories about why that happened in Freakonomics. (Not mentioned in the gov't article about the 1995 decline below.)

http://www.ojjdp.gov/jjjournal/jjjournal997/brief1.html

Unforunately- it only covered 1995- 1999- in specific urban areas by a specific group. Same for many studies- by changing variables, you get a different result.

So- it is hard to determine exactly what is/was going on.

That's why politicians like stats- they are so easily adjusted to suit their needs, imo.

 

[ArianeEmory]

I guess I'll just say: the predicted mid 1990s youth crime explosion did not happen as predicted, and experts are still analyzing the reason. I guess there are a few spikes upwards in some years, but overall the trend has been downward for decades and is still being reported as such.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/diane-dimond/crime-reduction_b_2878003.html

And one from my state, a gang state, about youth crime:

http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/10/11/2405933/youth-crimes-decline.html

I'm going to let this drop now. Please be assured that I have no agenda other than not liking to see people live in terror, and being partial to data. I am not trying to say there is no problem, there is obviously a problem. But saying that crime is getting worse in the US is just not supported by the data. Our perception is skewed, probably due to media focus.

 

[Salem]

This is NOT a political discussion. It is a crime discussion. It is NOT about the gun control or race. It about 3 teenagers that gunned a jogger.

Get back on track, please.

Salem

 

[SouthAussie]

Police in Duncan, Okla., are said to be scouring social-media for clues to the possible motives of Edwards, Chancey Luna, 16, and Michael Jones, 17, but so far have not publicly linked racial hatred to the death of Lane, an Australian student attending college in Oklahoma on a baseball scholarship.

Johnson suggested one other explanation for the murder, claiming Lane’s death was an “initiation” rite for the gang. “I don’t think it was an initiation; I know it was an initiation,” he told Australian media. “My son told me that it was an initiation.”

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/hate_slaying_QRXFfo0hDVGPG4M6m3XMEJ

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Initiation....so are they in the gang now? So sad and ridiculous isn't it?

 

[SouthAussie]

Apparently they think they are an offshoot of the Crips ..

"Another Duncan resident, James Johnson, who is black, said he alerted police when the teens threatened to kill his son because the youth had refused to join their gang, an offshoot of the Crips."

It is sad, and ridiculous, and Chris' casket will be arriving in Melbourne any time now. I expect we'll hear about it in tomorrow morning's news.