OK OK - Girl Scout Murders, Lori Farmer, 8, Michelle Guse, 9, Doris Milner, 10, 1977

[Betty P]

I would recommend the following news article.

There is a video interview with Gene Leroy Hart and I found it fascinating.

Once when the reporter asks Hart why he wouldn't answer a question - Hart's reply was that it was "inane".

Not sure whether you will agree with me or not - I found the interview with Hart quite insightful - was not what I expected.

http://ktul.com/news/local/the-girl-scout-murders-oklahomas-greatest-unsolved-crime

Yes, by the time of his trial, Hart had a lot of time to prepare and think about what he would say in the interview. His attorneys also did a good job of preparing him, with the new team making him always appear in a 3 piece suit, well groomed. Some of the questions asked of him referred to the publicity the AIM (American Indian Movement) had generated in his support, portraying him as an innocent victim of a system that was unfair to Native Americans. AIM was very active then and in the news often.

This news report covered the end of Hart's trial when he was declared "not guilty". The reporter made sure to mention that, when he was captured, Hart was wearing eyeglasses that were linked to the murder scene.

[video=youtube;YJpCT5am5EQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJpCT5am5EQ[/video]

 

[HoneyWest]

Regarding the sounds of Camp Scott - the cicadas. They were so loud...almost deafening in the woods. I don't remember it ever really being quiet.

 

[bessie]

Good morning everyone,

There are so many topics within this case to discuss.

What is the first topic we can start a thread to discuss and research?

I can start the thread - whatever topic you want to start with?

Or we can just start numerous threads.

I know that I am not as organized as you and I would like to keep topic conversations together so I can learn more from others and I can add what little I have found so far.

What do you all think of adding threads?

Keeping specific topics about this case will really help us to keep specific topics in their own places. In my opinion

Thanks in advance,

Please do not open new threads about the same case. That is only allowed within a sub-forum.

If you guys think there are enough different topics to break out into a separate forum, send me your feedback and topic ideas in a private message.

Thanks.

Bessie
WS ADMINISTRATOR

 

[missgulfsouth]

That mountain lion sounds exactly like what I heard in the middle of the night several years ago. Just like a woman being horrifically murdered ... it was so scary!!!!

 

[zencompass]

Please do not open new threads about the same case. That is only allowed within a sub-forum.

If you guys think there are enough different topics to break out into a separate forum, send me your feedback and topic ideas in a private message.

Thanks.

Bessie
WS ADMINISTRATOR

Oh dear,

I was the one who "alerted" my own post to ask the Moderator if this was possible but now I see that since it is not a subforum
it is not possible.

I'm sorry to have caused this problem. I was referring to a sub forum which is what I am used to posting on.

I really am not as familiar with this case as the others, by far, so it is best that I leave this thread.

Thank you for your response and again, I apologize for causing this problem.

 

[Betty P]

Oh dear,

I was the one who "alerted" my own post to ask the Moderator if this was possible but now I see that since it is not a subforum
it is not possible.

I'm sorry to have caused this problem. I was referring to a sub forum which is what I am used to posting on.

I really am not as familiar with this case as the others, by far, so it is best that I leave this thread.

Thank you for your response and again, I apologize for causing this problem.

No need to leave the thread, it's ok. Just send a PM to Bessie and let her know what other subtopics could be covered. For a long time, there wasn't much new information on this case and not a lot of interest in it here at WS. Perhaps if interest is renewed, it might be worthwhile.

I first began reading about the case probably around 2005 or 2006. I mostly read up on it at the other forum at this link and at the discussion forum at this link:

http://girlscoutmurders.yuku.com/

http://www.girlscoutmurders.com/

There have been some very dedicated people at that forum and other web sites who've done a lot of work gathering information, news articles, photos, etc. about the case.

 

[MaryG12]

What should the Girl Scouts/Magic Empire have done differently to prevent this?

Respectfully snipped by me.

The camp directors might have contacted the Magic Empire Council for permission to have rotating police security although I have no idea if that would have been possible in 1977, and of course no idea how big the Locust Grove police department was. Maybe have Tulsa police help out?


I am only trying to go by, if I was in the shoes of the camp director, what would I have done, knowing about the threatening notes, items being stolen, etc. That plus the fact my father was a state policeman (CT) for many years.

 

[Betty P]

Respectfully snipped by me.

The camp directors might have contacted the Magic Empire Council for permission to have rotating police security although I have no idea if that would have been possible in 1977, and of course no idea how big the Locust Grove police department was. Maybe have Tulsa police help out?


I am only trying to go by, if I was in the shoes of the camp director, what would I have done, knowing about the threatening notes, items being stolen, etc. That plus the fact my father was a state policeman (CT) for many years.

They had a Ranger who lived at the Camp full time, 12 months out of the year. He lived there in a house with his wife and kids. He was very familiar with the camp and surrounding area and through the year hiked and drove around the perimeter to check and do maintenance. He was also acquainted with local LE and called them any time he had a problem.

It's possible the Magic Empire Council could have hired an extra security guard during the times when the Council was hosting girl scouts at the camp. But you have to keep in mind this was 1977. The US wasn't as "security conscious" then as they are today in the post-9-11 world.

There had never been an incident of violent crime at the camp, even in off season. There were very few problems prior to these murders - an occasional burglary (probably when Hart broke in to steal food during winter) or people going fishing or swimming nearby. There really wasn't anything at the camp that anyone wanted and, overall, there weren't Girl Scouts camping out there very often, either. Counselors occasionally encountered cars of vacationers who came down the main drive thinking it was a park, but they were stopped and told it was private.

With the exception of the Ranger and his family, my impression is the camp was unoccupied except from late spring to early fall.

It was a horrible murder, but one whose circumstances were pretty rare up until that time. Local & county LE had been keeping a close eye on the area for a couple of years, since Hart had escaped from the county jail They knew he was from the area, that his mom lived nearby, so they always suspected he was around there. They did a lot of searching, but Hart's friends and family protected him and didn't reveal his location. I doubt LE had any suspicion he was capable of killing 3 little girls, either. His last violent crime was the rape of the Tulsa women 11 years before.

Also remember the threatening note (there was only 1) wasn't reported to the camp director or the Ranger until after the murders occurred.

 

[missgulfsouth]

- I would put at least one adult in each tent. Preferably CABIN!
- Plenty of lighting at each camp, no darkness so deep that you can't tell if your eyes are open or closed!
- Unscaleable perimeter fencing with only one way in/one way out, secured at all times.
- Walkie talkies in each tent and on all counselors.
- Any strange flashlights, men lurking about, creepy noises, screams ... everyone in each camp gathers immediately in a main tent or building until safety is insured. I don't at all understand why Carla didn't gather all the girls when she herself got spooked.
- ANY and all suspicious activity gets reported immediately to an adult and is taken SERIOUSLY!
- NO tents or cabins hidden in the woods nearly 100 yards from counselors.
- And I would do the same at the Boy Scout camp, too! Sick, sick pedophiles.

The lax sucurity has been excused away because it was 1977. What about Albert Fish, Otis Toole, Henry Lee Lucas, Gordon Northcott, Kenneth Parnell?????.... I don't get why people think kids were safer back then.

I probably have more. I'm sort of paranoid.

 

[MaryG12]

Ahh...I think I just pinpointed a potential problem with Camp Scott.

This Girl Scout camp was 410 acres in size. That's gargantuan compared to the Girl Scout camp I attended in my hometown (Camp Carlson) at 36 acres on top of mountain no less (Willis St); on the other side of the mountain is the one and only Lake Compounce amusement park, Bristol, CT.

https://www.gsofct.org/content/dam/girlscouts-gsofct/resources/camps/Carlson Map 1-31-13.pdf

The map of the camp really was as cozy as it looked at least I remembered it as such. No platform tents. There were a few wooden lean-tos and overhead shelters, plus areas for pitching tents. Plus the main cabin along with the regular camp amenities.

MOO but maybe if Camp Scott was smaller and better designed instead of being huge and spread out the way it was...

I wish I could give Lori, Michele and Doris the camp experience I had. I am so sorry girls.

I should be in bed but I did want to address this.

 

[Betty P]

I've been going through Newspaper.com looking at old articles about the case. There was an article in the Lawton Constitution (Lawton, OK) on 16 Jun 1977 that mentioned on April 1 of that year there was an incident at Camp Scott when the cabin of two troop leaders was ransacked and about $53 stolen. "The incident prompted Girl Scout leaders to cut short a weekend encampment by one day."

Hadn't read about that incident before, just thought I would mention it. Not sure if it was the same weekend that the senior scout found the threatening note in the empty donut box, but that incident was also alleged to have taken place in April.

Here's the link, its a subscription only site

https://www.newspapers.com/image/22660861/?terms=girl+scout+murders+oklahoma

 

[missgulfsouth]

Ahh...I think I just pinpointed a potential problem with Camp Scott.

This Girl Scout camp was 410 acres in size. That's gargantuan compared to the Girl Scout camp I attended in my hometown (Camp Carlson) at 36 acres on top of mountain no less (Willis St); on the other side of the mountain is the one and only Lake Compounce amusement park, Bristol, CT.

https://www.gsofct.org/content/dam/girlscouts-gsofct/resources/camps/Carlson Map 1-31-13.pdf

The map of the camp really was as cozy as it looked at least I remembered it as such. No platform tents. There were a few wooden lean-tos and overhead shelters, plus areas for pitching tents. Plus the main cabin along with the regular camp amenities.

MOO but maybe if Camp Scott was smaller and better designed instead of being huge and spread out the way it was...

I wish I could give Lori, Michele and Doris the camp experience I had. I am so sorry girls.

I should be in bed but I did want to address this.

Yes, it is huge! Obviously I meant an unscaleable perimeter fence around the main camps and showering/latrine/dining areas where the girls spent most of their time. There would be no way to fully secure the trails, open pasture, river areas.

 

[bessie]

Oh dear,

I was the one who "alerted" my own post to ask the Moderator if this was possible but now I see that since it is not a subforum
it is not possible.

I'm sorry to have caused this problem. I was referring to a sub forum which is what I am used to posting on.

I really am not as familiar with this case as the others, by far, so it is best that I leave this thread.

Thank you for your response and again, I apologize for causing this problem.

Apologies are not required, and please don't feel the need to leave the thread. That's the last I'd want you to do. Alerting your post was perfectly fine.

 

[wfgodot]

We're approaching the early hours of 13 June, forty years exactly since these crimes. Many thing are remembered and then forgotten, but those who heard of these murders later that day, at least in OK and nearby states, tend never to forget where they were and with whom.

 

[HoneyWest]

Oh dear,

I was the one who "alerted" my own post to ask the Moderator if this was possible but now I see that since it is not a subforum
it is not possible.

I'm sorry to have caused this problem. I was referring to a sub forum which is what I am used to posting on.

I really am not as familiar with this case as the others, by far, so it is best that I leave this thread.

Thank you for your response and again, I apologize for causing this problem.

You did not cause any problem! Please stay, get familiar with the case and by all means, ask question and share your thoughts!

 

[charminglane]

This case interests me, as my last name is Milner.
No relation to Doris, to my knowledge.

 

[wfgodot]

Midnight's there now, outside of Locust Grove, a very visible moon on the rise. It's waning.

So dark then, and the woods and their sounds; but what stepped out of the woods to greet them?

 

[MaryG12]

Yes, it is huge! Obviously I meant an unscaleable perimeter fence around the main camps and showering/latrine/dining areas where the girls spent most of their time. There would be no way to fully secure the trails, open pasture, river areas.

It sounds like the camp was in a fairly remote area too. I mean, where was the nearest gas station, stores, hospital, etc.

Wish I could understand their GS Council for acquiring such a huge chunk of land for a girls' camp. I would have to do some research on different Girl Scout camp sizes, out of curiosity, when I come home from work tonight.

Betty P., thank you for that Newspapers.com link, I have a subscription and quickly scanned through it. Sounds like there was a lot of stuff burglarized there...

 

[Betty P]

We're approaching the early hours of 13 June, forty years exactly since these crimes. Many thing are remembered and then forgotten, but those who heard of these murders later that day, at least in OK and nearby states, tend never to forget where they were and with whom.

Just from a historic perspective, it was a busy time for news. Just a few weeks before, hundreds died or were injured in the Beverly Hills Supper Club fire. The fire began just before a concert by singer/actor John Davidson.

http://www.wcpo.com/longform/the-be...-fire-on-its-40th-anniversary-cincinnati-area

Then in August, Elvis Presley died. It was a huge news event.

I had just returned home after graduating from college and it seemed there was some new tragedy in the news every week. Not all was tragedy, though. I recall it being a fun summer, though very hot. Spent my time looking for a "grown up" job and finding my own apartment. Even then, you felt a little worried being a single woman living alone in your own place. David Berkowitz, the "Son of Sam" serial killer had been arrested in NYC after killing or injuring several young people while out "parking" in their cars.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Berkowitz



http://wbmx.com/decades-70s-1977s-top-songs-movies-tv-shows-sporting-events-and-more/

 

[missgulfsouth]

Just from a historic perspective, it was a busy time for news. Just a few weeks before, hundreds died or were injured in the Beverly Hills Supper Club fire. The fire began just before a concert by singer/actor John Davidson.

http://www.wcpo.com/longform/the-be...-fire-on-its-40th-anniversary-cincinnati-area

Then in August, Elvis Presley died. It was a huge news event.

I had just returned home after graduating from college and it seemed there was some new tragedy in the news every week. Not all was tragedy, though. I recall it being a fun summer, though very hot. Spent my time looking for a "grown up" job and finding my own apartment. Even then, you felt a little worried being a single woman living alone in your own place. David Berkowitz, the "Son of Sam" serial killer had been arrested in NYC after killing or injuring several young people while out "parking" in their cars.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Berkowitz



http://wbmx.com/decades-70s-1977s-top-songs-movies-tv-shows-sporting-events-and-more/

I was two, our house was next door to my grandparents and we were getting ready to buy a bigger house to make room for my baby sister who would be born in October. I'm sure Elvis' death was shocking and upsetting to my parents.