OK OK - Girl Scout Murders, Lori Farmer, 8, Michelle Guse, 9, Doris Milner, 10, 1977

[huxley72]

I have followed this case off and on for some years now. Being 40 years now and still no definitive answers is so sad. That being said I think one person probably did it and one of the counselors or staff walked in the tent and made the tennis shoe print after the murders. I just don't think this could be planned or pulled off by two people. I still can't understand why no one heard anything while three people are beat to death while tents are close by. And I know they were not that close but close enough to hear what had to be horrible sounds. Also 130 campers and staff with things being stolen all night long and then someone waiting til 3 or 4am to kill people they don't even know. Then move the bodies to pose them, what a crazy crazy circumstance. It still boggles the mind when you read the aspects of this case. I mean it sounds like something too sick for Gene Hart but who knows, he was sick. But how does one stay hidden for 3 years and decide he is going to kill 3 girl scouts and pose them with no one seeing him. Then steal things before he kills so he can place them in a place LE would look so they would know it was him. So he was so good at planning and executing his plan to kill three random people and get away with it. Good at hiding out for a long time afterward, but terrible at hiding evidence from an almost perfect getaway.

Another question I have is why didn't Weaver pursue Hart better before the crime took place. Three years and being a convicted rapist on the loose, I wonder how hard he was being sought? Also why didn't they bring in dogs on the first day? If Hart did it he had to be close by and would have been apprehended quickly. Just strange how the initial investigation began, with the girls taken to the Great Hall and on hikes while a murderer could still be there. Also the fingerprint on the flashlight, what ever became of it?

 

[missgulfsouth]

I have followed this case off and on for some years now. Being 40 years now and still no definitive answers is so sad. That being said I think one person probably did it and one of the counselors or staff walked in the tent and made the tennis shoe print after the murders. I just don't think this could be planned or pulled off by two people. I still can't understand why no one heard anything while three people are beat to death while tents are close by. And I know they were not that close but close enough to hear what had to be horrible sounds. Also 130 campers and staff with things being stolen all night long and then someone waiting til 3 or 4am to kill people they don't even know. Then move the bodies to pose them, what a crazy crazy circumstance. It still boggles the mind when you read the aspects of this case. I mean it sounds like something too sick for Gene Hart but who knows, he was sick. But how does one stay hidden for 3 years and decide he is going to kill 3 girl scouts and pose them with no one seeing him. Then steal things before he kills so he can place them in a place LE would look so they would know it was him. So he was so good at planning and executing his plan to kill three random people and get away with it. Good at hiding out for a long time afterward, but terrible at hiding evidence from an almost perfect getaway.

Another question I have is why didn't Weaver pursue Hart better before the crime took place. Three years and being a convicted rapist on the loose, I wonder how hard he was being sought? Also why didn't they bring in dogs on the first day? If Hart did it he had to be close by and would have been apprehended quickly. Just strange how the initial investigation began, with the girls taken to the Great Hall and on hikes while a murderer could still be there. Also the fingerprint on the flashlight, what ever became of it?

Great questions. I too don't understand the eating, swimming and hiking after the bodies were discovered. Almost like in their desire to remain calm Scouts, everyone was in denial that a maniac could still be in those woods. It makes me sick to imagine it, actually. But think about how the entire thing was handled - seeing strange men wandering about, flashlights in the woods, creepy noises, little girls not being believed, threatening notes, a cut tent, things being stolen, not telling parents that their children had been murdered (calling it an accident) ... everyone acted like Pollyanna, "We're Girl Scouts, we're invincible, nothing to see here!" Ugh.

 

[thenotebook]

Thinking of this case today.
I've seen mention of a documentary on this case. Does anyone have a link to that?

 

[missgulfsouth]

Thinking of this case today.
I've seen mention of a documentary on this case. Does anyone have a link to that?

I recently talked with someone about the documentary... it is no longer free on YouTube. You have to buy the DVD for $15.

 

[Betty P]

I have followed this case off and on for some years now. Being 40 years now and still no definitive answers is so sad. That being said I think one person probably did it and one of the counselors or staff walked in the tent and made the tennis shoe print after the murders. I just don't think this could be planned or pulled off by two people. I still can't understand why no one heard anything while three people are beat to death while tents are close by. And I know they were not that close but close enough to hear what had to be horrible sounds. Also 130 campers and staff with things being stolen all night long and then someone waiting til 3 or 4am to kill people they don't even know. Then move the bodies to pose them, what a crazy crazy circumstance. It still boggles the mind when you read the aspects of this case. I mean it sounds like something too sick for Gene Hart but who knows, he was sick. But how does one stay hidden for 3 years and decide he is going to kill 3 girl scouts and pose them with no one seeing him. Then steal things before he kills so he can place them in a place LE would look so they would know it was him. So he was so good at planning and executing his plan to kill three random people and get away with it. Good at hiding out for a long time afterward, but terrible at hiding evidence from an almost perfect getaway.

Another question I have is why didn't Weaver pursue Hart better before the crime took place. Three years and being a convicted rapist on the loose, I wonder how hard he was being sought? Also why didn't they bring in dogs on the first day? If Hart did it he had to be close by and would have been apprehended quickly. Just strange how the initial investigation began, with the girls taken to the Great Hall and on hikes while a murderer could still be there. Also the fingerprint on the flashlight, what ever became of it?

LE couldn't find Gene Hart before the murders and had a hard time after because he was being hidden and protected by many in the community. They were often frustrated because they couldn't get a search warrant to find him in a private residence unless they had some probable cause to believe he was there. Their hands were tied. JMO, they did the best they could.

JMO, the Camp did a good job of handling all the 132 campers, given the situation. Initially, they were concerned that whomever killed the 3 girls might still be on the property and a danger to others. Once they contacted LE, they had to get the girls to one safe, central location - that turned out to be the Great Hall, where they served breakfast - the activity they would normally do on that day. Gave them and arriving LE a chance to search the area to make sure there were no dangers.

Leaders personally went to every unit and talked to counselors telling them there was an emergency/accident and to follow directions carefully, that the girls were going home. They asked the counselors to bring the Kiowa girls to the GH via a different route to avoid area where LE, vehicles, ambulances, etc. were congregating. All others were told to stick to the main road over safety concerns.

LE then asked to question various groups of people before they left. That included all staff/counselors and the girls in Kiowa. So they had to find ways to keep the girls busy while they rotated staff in and out of each group for questioning. They also had to inspect all the camp sites, etc. so had to keep girls away from them, too.

When LE said it was ok, they arranged for transportation to send the girls home. They were then allowed to go back to their tents (all except Kiowa) and retrieve their belongings. IIRC, Kiowa girls were questioned twice before they left.

Camp director had to communicate with hdqtrs and news media. They had to go over and provide lists of all the girls in attendance, contact the parents of those killed, then work with LE to issue a press release to the rest of the parents telling them to pick up their kids and that parents of those killed had already been notified.

Yeah, and they had to give parents enough time to get to pick up locations for kids. Oh, and they had to get contact information for all kids to LE for follow up questioning. All without a photocopier or computer or cell phones.

It was a logistical nightmare. Imagine trying to manage and help LE process a crime scene, interview witnesses, control information, deal with news media, etc. with 133 girls to take care of.

I thought they did a good job. It was done according to their own safety guidelines and instructions from LE and the DA who were managing the murder investigation.

TL: DR - It was one gigantic 400+ acre crime scene they had to secure and process with 133 young Girl Scouts on the premises.

Hart was protected by the members of his community. They thought he was innocent of the rapes.

 

[missgulfsouth]

They thought he was innocent of the rapes he admitted to???

 

[wfgodot]

Some of these statements are beginning to need links to sources of the material conveyed.

 

[MaryG12]

A couple of questions:

Did LE ever ascertain the exact hour at night when this crime took place?

Did no other girls from Kiowa have to get up to use the latrine? If they did, would they have been able to see the sleeping bags dragged out onto the trail, if their flashlight hit the right spot?

What about the following morning in the dining hall? Did any of the other girls ask about the 3 missing girls?

The more information that comes forth, the more questions I have....

 

[MaryG12]

I have followed this case off and on for some years now. Being 40 years now and still no definitive answers is so sad. That being said I think one person probably did it and one of the counselors or staff walked in the tent and made the tennis shoe print after the murders. I just don't think this could be planned or pulled off by two people.

BBM

Respectfully snipped by me

I thought about that but then wouldn't the counselor or staff person have alerted the other adults at camp?

Also, did any of the counselors or staff members check on the girls in their unit every few hours throughout the night, or if they had to get up and use the latrine?

 

[missgulfsouth]

BBM

Respectfully snipped by me

I thought about that but then wouldn't the counselor or staff person have alerted the other adults at camp?

Also, did any of the counselors or staff members check on the girls in their unit every few hours throughout the night, or if they had to get up and use the latrine?

All Scouts, counselors and staff shoes would have been compared to rule out their involvement ... right? I hope .... right? Am I right? I really hope I'm right. Cause that's basic.

 

[MaryG12]

All Scouts, counselors and staff shoes would have been compared to rule out their involvement ... right? I hope .... right? Am I right? I really hope I'm right. Cause that's basic.

Yep, you are right.

 

[huxley72]

LE couldn't find Gene Hart before the murders and had a hard time after because he was being hidden and protected by many in the community. They were often frustrated because they couldn't get a search warrant to find him in a private residence unless they had some probable cause to believe he was there. Their hands were tied. JMO, they did the best they could.

JMO, the Camp did a good job of handling all the 132 campers, given the situation. Initially, they were concerned that whomever killed the 3 girls might still be on the property and a danger to others. Once they contacted LE, they had to get the girls to one safe, central location - that turned out to be the Great Hall, where they served breakfast - the activity they would normally do on that day. Gave them and arriving LE a chance to search the area to make sure there were no dangers.

Leaders personally went to every unit and talked to counselors telling them there was an emergency/accident and to follow directions carefully, that the girls were going home. They asked the counselors to bring the Kiowa girls to the GH via a different route to avoid area where LE, vehicles, ambulances, etc. were congregating. All others were told to stick to the main road over safety concerns.

LE then asked to question various groups of people before they left. That included all staff/counselors and the girls in Kiowa. So they had to find ways to keep the girls busy while they rotated staff in and out of each group for questioning. They also had to inspect all the camp sites, etc. so had to keep girls away from them, too.

When LE said it was ok, they arranged for transportation to send the girls home. They were then allowed to go back to their tents (all except Kiowa) and retrieve their belongings. IIRC, Kiowa girls were questioned twice before they left.

Camp director had to communicate with hdqtrs and news media. They had to go over and provide lists of all the girls in attendance, contact the parents of those killed, then work with LE to issue a press release to the rest of the parents telling them to pick up their kids and that parents of those killed had already been notified.

Yeah, and they had to give parents enough time to get to pick up locations for kids. Oh, and they had to get contact information for all kids to LE for follow up questioning. All without a photocopier or computer or cell phones.

It was a logistical nightmare. Imagine trying to manage and help LE process a crime scene, interview witnesses, control information, deal with news media, etc. with 133 girls to take care of.

I thought they did a good job. It was done according to their own safety guidelines and instructions from LE and the DA who were managing the murder investigation.

TL: DR - It was one gigantic 400+ acre crime scene they had to secure and process with 133 young Girl Scouts on the premises.

Hart was protected by the members of his community. They thought he was innocent of the rapes.

I know that Hart had some supporters and people that hid him out. I really don't think he was the outdoorsman that he was made out to be. But given that Cherokee County ( is that the right county) had a small population it looks like it would not have been that hard to find him in 4 years time. Also I can't believe there were no other incidents of rape or attempted rape for 4 years or sightings for that matter. Then all of a sudden he plans and executes a triple homicide inside an active camp with hundreds of people nearby. He seems like the right man because no other suspects make sense or anything about this case makes sense. As for LE and what happened afterwards, I am not trying to hammer them. It's been years ago and times are very different, but I bet you money Weaver mentioned Hart on day 1. And I also believe that he thought he was hiding out in the woods around the camp. So thats why I was talking about bringing in the dogs on day 1 and other police to search the area nearby. I also wanted to ask what did the other girls of KIowa unit ask about the girls that were not at the GH and what were they told? Horrible case that the more you delve into it, the more confusing it gets.

 

[huxley72]

BBM

Respectfully snipped by me

I thought about that but then wouldn't the counselor or staff person have alerted the other adults at camp?

Also, did any of the counselors or staff members check on the girls in their unit every few hours throughout the night, or if they had to get up and use the latrine?

My theory is that when they went to do a head count after discovering the bodies that one of them walked into the tent, or at least put one foot in before noticing the blood. It had to be around 6:20 or 6:30 so it still was dawn and maybe it was hard to see inside the tent. It seems that what I have read said the tennis shoe was a perfect print and the other combat boot print was smeared like someone trying to clean up.

 

[huxley72]

If it wasn't an accidental shoe print then it would have to be two people which really boggles then mind. Thats two people going around with a tiny flashlight not making any noise, commiting the crime and getting away without being seen. Also 40 years now without telling a soul and not commiting a similiar crime. If that is the case then I would think a counselor knew the perp and was summoned to the tent to help clean up and help the perp get out without being detected. This is all hypothetical and I have no idea what I am talking about but I would like to know the truth. And I just don't think we will ever know unless the boot is found, the murder weapon found or the killer confesses.

 

[MaryG12]

If it wasn't an accidental shoe print then it would have to be two people which really boggles then mind. Thats two people going around with a tiny flashlight not making any noise, commiting the crime and getting away without being seen. Also 40 years now without telling a soul and not commiting a similiar crime. If that is the case then I would think a counselor knew the perp and was summoned to the tent to help clean up and help the perp get out without being detected. This is all hypothetical and I have no idea what I am talking about but I would like to know the truth. And I just don't think we will ever know unless the boot is found, the murder weapon found or the killer confesses.

I know what you are talking about and I suggested this a few pages ago on this thread - the possibility this was an inside job versus being GLH. Like some of the other WS members on the thread, I think there was more than one person, maybe even three. I mean, has LE even guessed how long it took to kill the three little girls, drag their bodies out onto the trail and pose one of the girl up against that tree? If it was at least two people it would not take long, if it was just one, that person would have to move really fast. And how fast could one move outside in the dark with just a very small flashlight and not step on anything that might make a loud noise and wake someone up, like a large, dry, dead branch laying on the ground. So whoever did it, knew that camp layout and surrounding areas very well.

 

[missgulfsouth]

Yep, you are right.

Yay!!!

 

[missgulfsouth]

If it wasn't an accidental shoe print then it would have to be two people which really boggles then mind. Thats two people going around with a tiny flashlight not making any noise, commiting the crime and getting away without being seen. Also 40 years now without telling a soul and not commiting a similiar crime. If that is the case then I would think a counselor knew the perp and was summoned to the tent to help clean up and help the perp get out without being detected. This is all hypothetical and I have no idea what I am talking about but I would like to know the truth. And I just don't think we will ever know unless the boot is found, the murder weapon found or the killer confesses.

But I thought the tennis shoe print size 7 was in the mud outside the tent? Obviously left after the rain had stopped, and didn't match shoes of counselors or staff. Please correct me if I'm wrong on that, I do believe I read it at campscottmurders.com, and among various articles. That is a VERY important clue, since IMO it points to a second killer/accomplice.

 

[huxley72]

One more thing before I call it a night. If Lori and Michelle were killed while they slept why tie their hands? I do believe that I read that their hands were tied but the thoery being put forth was they were beaten while they slept in the tent. Maybe they were carried off then brought back to the tent then carried to the tree, the whole staging is what really throws the loop. It reminds me of the Hillside Strangler case which began in the fall of 77 with the bodies being displayed to be found rather quickly, but why?

 

[huxley72]

But I thought the tennis shoe print size 7 was in the mud outside the tent? Obviously left after the rain had stopped, and didn't match shoes of counselors or staff. Please correct me if I'm wrong on that, I do believe I read it at campscottmurders.com, and among various articles. That is a VERY important clue, since IMO it points to a second killer/accomplice.

The print was on the tent floor and was a size 7 shoe.

 

[MaryG12]

Here is an interesting article on the case and the fourth girl who got to know the three girls:

http://www.claremoreprogress.com/ne...cle_72df0b12-4fbc-11e7-802d-0fc986ba3a02.html

June 13 is a date Catoosa resident Angela Sweet is reminded of still following the murder of three Girl Scouts 40 years ago today.


The bodies of Doris Milner, age 10; Lori Farmer, age 8; and Michelle Guse, age 9 were found murdered around 6 a.m. on June 13, 1977 at Camp Scott located about three miles southeast of Locust Grove in Mayes County.
...........

Sweet said nearly a week later she spoke to investigators answering their questions.


She told investigators she remembered a box of donuts that were oddly placed outside of their tent prior to her getting moved and no one knew where they came from. One of the little girls who was murdered told Sweet she did not know where the donuts came from and thought that they came from one of the other girls.

....................................................................

I am guessing this box of donuts that Sweet mentioned is different from the donut box that someone brought in a few months before - the one where someone stole the donuts and left that alleged note stating three Girl Scouts were going to die?

Kind of peculiar how donut boxes figure in this case. Weird....