OK OK - Girl Scout Murders, Lori Farmer, 8, Michelle Guse, 9, Doris Milner, 10, 1977

[missgulfsouth]

One more thing before I call it a night. If Lori and Michelle were killed while they slept why tie their hands? I do believe that I read that their hands were tied but the thoery being put forth was they were beaten while they slept in the tent. Maybe they were carried off then brought back to the tent then carried to the tree, the whole staging is what really throws the loop. It reminds me of the Hillside Strangler case which began in the fall of 77 with the bodies being displayed to be found rather quickly, but why?

They were tied in a tight fetal position. It's so disturbing and you are right, it makes no sense. But we do know GLH liked tying females up.

 

[Betty P]

Some of these statements are beginning to need links to sources of the material conveyed.

Sorry, I've been reading a lot of the Pre-Trial transcripts the last several days.

http://www.campscottmurders.com/pre-trial-volumes.html

There's a lot of good information there. For information about what the Camp leaders did the day of the murders, how they managed getting kids home, read the testimony of Barbara Day and the camp counselors, also testimony of the Camp Ranger Ben Woodward. Their accounts are pretty consistent, but each one remembers details specific to their experience, so it helps to read them all.

Those are in Vol 1, Vol 2 and Vol 4 (counselor Susan Emery)

http://www.campscottmurders.com/pre-trial-volumes.html

Index to witnesses

http://nebula.wsimg.com/05fb84ff627...4109980B88DCD7256&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

Testimony relating to searching for Hart: Larry Bowles, Dennis Reimer and Larry Clodfelter, among others.

Since they're PDF files, my computer doesn't allow me to cut and paste text from the testimony. I'd love to spend a couple hours going back and picking out all the lines and listing them by page and line number, but am too busy right now. I do encourage everyone to read these documents. Agree or not, they're legal testimony, submitted in court, under oath.

WRT searching for Hart, LE was able to get search warrants for some homes, eg they were able to justify searching his mother's home. But, according to other witnesses (see testimony of Larry Dry), he was also put up by friends, etc. See also, IIRC, testimony of Jimmy Ray Beck, a local minister who testified about going with another minister to GLH's mother's home while GLH was in hiding. They met and talked to GLH there, hung out for a couple hours and had breakfast with him. It was pretty common knowledge in the community.

And yes, some members of GLH's family thought he was also "framed" for the rapes in Tulsa in 1966. Not uncommon with family members of violent criminals.

 

[missgulfsouth]

The print was on the tent floor and was a size 7 shoe.

If the shoe print was on the tent floor, clearly seen and distinguishable in the blood, my next question would be: How long does it take for blood to dry?

Doris Denise was the last one killed (based on body temp), I estimate that around 5am because at 6am her body temp was just over 70 degrees. Someone may be able to calculate rate of cooling more accurately than I can just guessing. Carla came upon the scene at 6am ... if she happened to go inside the tent she should have told them that so they aren't investigating a second perp. They checked her shoes and they were not a match. Whoever was in that tent with size 7 shoes stepped in blood that was still pretty fresh.

 

[huxley72]

Here is an interesting article on the case and the fourth girl who got to know the three girls:

http://www.claremoreprogress.com/ne...cle_72df0b12-4fbc-11e7-802d-0fc986ba3a02.html

June 13 is a date Catoosa resident Angela Sweet is reminded of still following the murder of three Girl Scouts 40 years ago today.


The bodies of Doris Milner, age 10; Lori Farmer, age 8; and Michelle Guse, age 9 were found murdered around 6 a.m. on June 13, 1977 at Camp Scott located about three miles southeast of Locust Grove in Mayes County.
...........

Sweet said nearly a week later she spoke to investigators answering their questions.


She told investigators she remembered a box of donuts that were oddly placed outside of their tent prior to her getting moved and no one knew where they came from. One of the little girls who was murdered told Sweet she did not know where the donuts came from and thought that they came from one of the other girls.

....................................................................

I am guessing this box of donuts that Sweet mentioned is different from the donut box that someone brought in a few months before - the one where someone stole the donuts and left that alleged note stating three Girl Scouts were going to die?

Kind of peculiar how donut boxes figure in this case. Weird....

Thats a fake article, the donut box and note happened in April of 77. Also the girl that was supposed to be in that group was in another group and was supposed to be moved the next day. She never knew the girls as far as I know. It sounds like a lot of little things about the case made it to one person to tell a story.

 

[Betty P]

Here is an interesting article on the case and the fourth girl who got to know the three girls:

http://www.claremoreprogress.com/ne...cle_72df0b12-4fbc-11e7-802d-0fc986ba3a02.html

June 13 is a date Catoosa resident Angela Sweet is reminded of still following the murder of three Girl Scouts 40 years ago today.


The bodies of Doris Milner, age 10; Lori Farmer, age 8; and Michelle Guse, age 9 were found murdered around 6 a.m. on June 13, 1977 at Camp Scott located about three miles southeast of Locust Grove in Mayes County.
...........

Sweet said nearly a week later she spoke to investigators answering their questions.


She told investigators she remembered a box of donuts that were oddly placed outside of their tent prior to her getting moved and no one knew where they came from. One of the little girls who was murdered told Sweet she did not know where the donuts came from and thought that they came from one of the other girls.

....................................................................

I am guessing this box of donuts that Sweet mentioned is different from the donut box that someone brought in a few months before - the one where someone stole the donuts and left that alleged note stating three Girl Scouts were going to die?

Kind of peculiar how donut boxes figure in this case. Weird....

Interesting. The Kiowa counselors all three talked about Dee Elder going to the Great Hall later in the evening to get cookies for the girls in their unit. IIRC, they were Girl Scout cookies, the kind in sleeves. They gave them to the girls in the "kitchen area" of Kiowa unit while they talked, got to know each other and read some books. Maybe that's what she remembers - cookies. No mention of donuts, and it seems likely the counselors would have noticed if some food mysteriously appeared there.

See Pre-Trial Volume 1 and Volume 4 - Susan Emery's testimony

http://www.campscottmurders.com/pre-trial-volumes.html

ETA: The article also says the parents were not notified whether or not their children were the ones killed before picking them up. News stories and video from that day show otherwise. Parents picking up their girls were told the families of the deceased girls were already notified. After getting off the bus and greeting their parents the parents were asked to sign the child's name to a list so they could verify every camper made it home and left with their parent.

I'll find the link in a sec. It was in one of the articles we were discussing here yesterday.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Voi0O2jlAPQ

 

[missgulfsouth]

Thats a fake article, the donut box and note happened in April of 77. Also the girl that was supposed to be in that group was in another group and was supposed to be moved the next day. She never knew the girls as far as I know. It sounds like a lot of little things about the case made it to one person to tell a story.

A lot of people claim to be that mysterious 4th girl.

 

[huxley72]

Sorry, I've been reading a lot of the Pre-Trial transcripts the last several days.

http://www.campscottmurders.com/pre-trial-volumes.html

There's a lot of good information there. For information about what the Camp leaders did the day of the murders, how they managed getting kids home, read the testimony of Barbara Day and the camp counselors, also testimony of the Camp Ranger Ben Woodward. Their accounts are pretty consistent, but each one remembers details specific to their experience, so it helps to read them all.

Those are in Vol 1, Vol 2 and Vol 4 (counselor Susan Emery)

http://www.campscottmurders.com/pre-trial-volumes.html

Index to witnesses

http://nebula.wsimg.com/05fb84ff627...4109980B88DCD7256&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

Testimony relating to searching for Hart: Larry Bowles, Dennis Reimer and Larry Clodfelter, among others.

Since they're PDF files, my computer doesn't allow me to cut and paste text from the testimony. I'd love to spend a couple hours going back and picking out all the lines and listing them by page and line number, but am too busy right now. I do encourage everyone to read these documents. Agree or not, they're legal testimony, submitted in court, under oath.

WRT searching for Hart, LE was able to get search warrants for some homes, eg they were able to justify searching his mother's home. But, according to other witnesses (see testimony of Larry Dry), he was also put up by friends, etc. See also, IIRC, testimony of Jimmy Ray Beck, a local minister who testified about going with another minister to GLH's mother's home while GLH was in hiding. They met and talked to GLH there, hung out for a couple hours and had breakfast with him. It was pretty common knowledge in the community.

And yes, some members of GLH's family thought he was also "framed" for the rapes in Tulsa in 1966. Not uncommon with family members of violent criminals.

I have read most of the pre trial transcripts not all. They are long and a lot of mindless lawyer games going on as well. I will have to brush up on Barbara Day's testimony and Ben's testimony, I think I missed it. As for Hart hiding out for so long and getting help, I can see how it happened after the killings. But I don't know how it happened so long before. The guy was a serial burgler which meant he stole from everyone, which he had to do while hiding out for 4 years, Also I am sure no one wanted him around there daughters or wife, while they were away. He did confess everything he did on the rape charge. My only question is there had to be more rapes he committed or murders he did commit. No way he waits 11 years before doing awfull things again. Are there any other cold cases near Locust Grove of Tulsa for rape and murder between 73 to 77?

 

[HoneyWest]

One more thing before I call it a night. If Lori and Michelle were killed while they slept why tie their hands? I do believe that I read that their hands were tied but the thoery being put forth was they were beaten while they slept in the tent. Maybe they were carried off then brought back to the tent then carried to the tree, the whole staging is what really throws the loop. It reminds me of the Hillside Strangler case which began in the fall of 77 with the bodies being displayed to be found rather quickly, but why?

I believe Lori and Michele were killed while they were sleeping, by blunt trauma to the head. They were also sexually assaulted post-mortem, so maybe the tying up of the girls was for the benefit of the killer. He kills them first, then moves on to Denise, sexually assults her, kills her, leaving her body by the tree. Then goes back and does whatever he does with Lori & Michele's bodies, tying them up. Then stuffs them in their sleeping bags, carries them out to maybe hide them or to a car perhaps? But gets spooked and drops everything and runs.

 

[HoneyWest]

I know that Hart had some supporters and people that hid him out. I really don't think he was the outdoorsman that he was made out to be. But given that Cherokee County ( is that the right county) had a small population it looks like it would not have been that hard to find him in 4 years time. Also I can't believe there were no other incidents of rape or attempted rape for 4 years or sightings for that matter. Then all of a sudden he plans and executes a triple homicide inside an active camp with hundreds of people nearby. He seems like the right man because no other suspects make sense or anything about this case makes sense. As for LE and what happened afterwards, I am not trying to hammer them. It's been years ago and times are very different, but I bet you money Weaver mentioned Hart on day 1. And I also believe that he thought he was hiding out in the woods around the camp. So thats why I was talking about bringing in the dogs on day 1 and other police to search the area nearby. I also wanted to ask what did the other girls of KIowa unit ask about the girls that were not at the GH and what were they told? Horrible case that the more you delve into it, the more confusing it gets.

I'm sure Pete Weaver had a burr under his saddle about Hart before this happened. It had to be embarrassing to have Hart break out of his jail twice, and never have been able to track him down. Also remember, he didn't have a lot of LEO's to dedicate to finding Hart.

As far as the other girls in Kiowa asking about the girls, I don't think anyone did. The counselors kept them very busy and distracted for quite awhile after breakfast. They were told the buses were coming to take them back home, but the younger girls were told different things than the older girls.

 

[huxley72]

I believe Lori and Michele were killed while they were sleeping, by blunt trauma to the head. They were also sexually assaulted post-mortem, so maybe the tying up of the girls was for the benefit of the killer. He kills them first, then moves on to Denise, sexually assults her, kills her, leaving her body by the tree. Then goes back and does whatever he does with Lori & Michele's bodies, tying them up. Then stuffs them in their sleeping bags, carries them out to maybe hide them or to a car perhaps? But gets spooked and drops everything and runs.

Possible but i don't think they were dropped and the killer ran off. Carla said she could tell the girl was dead when she discovered her and the Sheriff said she was 70 degrees which goes with the theory of 4:30 to 5 am time of death. So I dont think the killer stayed around til the sun was rising, then just dropped everything. I think it was staged to make you think they were going in that direction towards the gate. But I think they went the opposite way and I also think the flashlight was left for a reason. In fact I think whoever committed these crimes used gloves and left the flashlight behind for some reason to throw off the investigation just like the posing of the bodies.

 

[HoneyWest]

Interesting. The Kiowa counselors all three talked about Dee Elder going to the Great Hall later in the evening to get cookies for the girls in their unit. IIRC, they were Girl Scout cookies, the kind in sleeves. They gave them to the girls in the "kitchen area" of Kiowa unit while they talked, got to know each other and read some books. Maybe that's what she remembers - cookies. No mention of donuts, and it seems likely the counselors would have noticed if some food mysteriously appeared there.

See Pre-Trial Volume 1 and Volume 4 - Susan Emery's testimony

http://www.campscottmurders.com/pre-trial-volumes.html

ETA: The article also says the parents were not notified whether or not their children were the ones killed before picking them up. News stories and video from that day show otherwise. Parents picking up their girls were told the families of the deceased girls were already notified. After getting off the bus and greeting their parents the parents were asked to sign the child's name to a list so they could verify every camper made it home and left with their parent.

I'll find the link in a sec. It was in one of the articles we were discussing here yesterday.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Voi0O2jlAPQ

The parents were absolutely notified that their child was safe and would be back in Tulsa. The parents of the deceased girls were already notified, that is true.

 

[MaryG12]

For real?!

From Newspapers.com:

http://maryhaberstroh.com/wp-conten...lmBeachPost_WestPalmBeach_FL_June_30_1977.pdf


http://maryhaberstroh.com/wp-conten...BeachPost_WestPalmBeach_FL_June_30_1977_b.pdf


The Palm Beach Post, West Palm Beach, FL, June 30, 1977

Hardcastle said he did not think the case is similar to the June 13 sex-murder of three Girl Scouts while they were camping near Locust Grove, OK. But asked if the case might have prompted Charlotte's abduction, the sheriff said, "The odds are pretty good it had something to do with it."
..........................................

You cannot make this up. You just can't. I have to get to bed but this article is worth reading.

 

[Betty P]

Some news video from around 1990 reviewing the case, with interviews, including Sheriff Pete Weaver and the guy who found the cave believed to be the hideout

[video=youtube;47KW5fKKtz8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47KW5fKKtz8[/video]


Girl who attended camp

[video=youtube;TW8va5lOm80]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TW8va5lOm80[/video]

Another theory from someone interviewed by the same local TV reporter, Jerry Webber

[video=youtube;TJ41pYmYzOU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJ41pYmYzOU[/video]

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

I'm confused. Will you clarify, Huxley? MaryG linked to a reliable local news source (Claremore Daily Progress in Claremore, OK).

Why do you believe the article itself is fake? Do you not believe Angela Sweet, who tells about being in the camp? She said a picture of her getting off the bus ran on the front page of the Tulsa World.

I imagine, if she's not being honest, someone here could see if she actually was pictured in the next day's paper? I did a basic keyword search on the Tulsa World website, but couldn't find any article more than 10-15 years old ... so, library? microfiche? call the World and ask them if they can check their archive/morgue paper files?

Thats a fake article, the donut box and note happened in April of 77. Also the girl that was supposed to be in that group was in another group and was supposed to be moved the next day. She never knew the girls as far as I know. It sounds like a lot of little things about the case made it to one person to tell a story.

 

[HoneyWest]

Possible but i don't think they were dropped and the killer ran off. Carla said she could tell the girl was dead when she discovered her and the Sheriff said she was 70 degrees which goes with the theory of 4:30 to 5 am time of death. So I dont think the killer stayed around til the sun was rising, then just dropped everything. I think it was staged to make you think they were going in that direction towards the gate. But I think they went the opposite way and I also think the flashlight was left for a reason. In fact I think whoever committed these crimes used gloves and left the flashlight behind for some reason to throw off the investigation just like the posing of the bodies.

Who's theory is 4:30 to 5 am time of death? That leaves too little time for all of what was done after the killings. The perp found towels and tried to mop up the floor of the tent, in addition to tying up the girls, molest all of them, stuff two of them in sleeping bags, all within maybe an hour? What reason do you think the flashlight was left?

 

[missgulfsouth]

Who's theory is 4:30 to 5 am time of death? That leaves too little time for all of what was done after the killings. The perp found towels and tried to mop up the floor of the tent, in addition to tying up the girls, molest all of them, stuff two of them in sleeping bags, all within maybe an hour? What reason do you think the flashlight was left?

The Generation Why podcast states that Doris' body temperature was just above 70 degrees when her body was examined, and that rigor mortis was already present with Lori and Michelle. Therefore, Doris would have been killed last, a time was not given on anything I heard or read. Does anyone here know if the information from the podcast is verified on any other source that can be posted here? If not, it may not be credible information.

 

[Betty P]

Who's theory is 4:30 to 5 am time of death? That leaves too little time for all of what was done after the killings. The perp found towels and tried to mop up the floor of the tent, in addition to tying up the girls, molest all of them, stuff two of them in sleeping bags, all within maybe an hour? What reason do you think the flashlight was left?

JMO, perhaps the battery was dying on the flashlight? It does appear something (a noise, someone talking, etc.) startled the killer(s) and made them leave quickly. They would have had to make their way out without benefit of light, unless they had another flashlight that they took with them.

Here's a link to the historic weather info that day from WeatherUnderground

https://www.wunderground.com/histor...reqdb.zip=74401&reqdb.magic=1&reqdb.wmo=99999

It shows the following for sunrise (twilight)

Civil Twilight 5:34 am

Nautical Twilight 4:57 am

Astronomical Twilight 4:16 am

So, by 4:16 am, the sky was beginning to turn light, very faint illumination. Nautical twilight is when the horizon becomes defined and you can begin to see the outline of objects. So, part of the reason for leaving quickly could have been the sudden realization that it was getting light and that people would be getting up soon. The bodies were not deep in the woods and anyone nearby could have seen them from a tent or walking to latrine/showers, etc. It would have also been possible for Cavalier or other people living nearby to see them leaving the camp area. They probably had a way to go to leave the scene and needed to have enough darkness left to escape undetected.

Also, only one fingerprint was found on the flashlight. It was on the reflector (inside the lens?) So it has always sounded to me like the killer(s) were wearing gloves.

 

[huxley72]

I'm confused. Will you clarify, Huxley? MaryG linked to a reliable local news source (Claremore Daily Progress in Claremore, OK).

Why do you believe the article itself is fake? Do you not believe Angela Sweet, who tells about being in the camp? She said a picture of her getting off the bus ran on the front page of the Tulsa World.

I imagine, if she's not being honest, someone here could see if she actually was pictured in the next day's paper? I did a basic keyword search on the Tulsa World website, but couldn't find any article more than 10-15 years old ... so, library? microfiche? call the World and ask them if they can check their archive/morgue paper files?

In the article she says the Camp Director came and placed her in the unit with the three murdered girls. Then the director came back and took her to another unit. By all accounts there was another girl missplaced in another unit but not noticed til late that night. They were gonna move her the next day. Also the Thunderstorm took place early in the evening around supper time which contradicts the author. And I think we would have heard about a mysterious box of donuts left at the murder tent by the killer. I really doubt the picture comment being all the other anomolys. But no way am I going to cite all the articles and testimony that disputes everything about this article.

 

[huxley72]

The Generation Why podcast states that Doris' body temperature was just above 70 degrees when her body was examined, and that rigor mortis was already present with Lori and Michelle. Therefore, Doris would have been killed last, a time was not given on anything I heard or read. Does anyone here know if the information from the podcast is verified on any other source that can be posted here? If not, it may not be credible information.

It was Sheriff Weaver who said this during the preliminary trial that when he touched her he estimated her temperature around 70 degrees. I think he was there pretty quick after the initial call probably before 7am. I tried researching body temperature drop after death and realize it is a long read.

 

[missgulfsouth]

It was Sheriff Weaver who said this during the preliminary trial that when he touched her he estimated her temperature around 70 degrees. I think he was there pretty quick after the initial call probably before 7am. I tried researching body temperature drop after death and realize it is a long read.

It is a long read and not an exact Science. Rigor was present in the two victims in sleeping bags, so they had been killed considerably earlier than Doris who was still somewhat warm to the touch. It creeps me out to no end that whoever did it was in the camp for hours and hours, and probably close to the time the bodies were discovered.