OK OK - Girl Scout Murders, Lori Farmer, 8, Michelle Guse, 9, Doris Milner, 10, 1977

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  • #641
I am just learning some of the details of this case and I am linking below the 3rd video at bottom in post #553 on pg 37 of this thread.
Thanks Betty P for all the other links too. Some good information.

The boys sure did not sound like boy scouts at all. The father talked about his son and his friends who practically lived in the woods according to him.

The person who was convicted of killing his son over two pounds of pot and his brother did not sound like boy scouts to me. The one person went to prison for the murder and I read where the older brother was later convicted of rape with instrumentation of someone else much later.

My question is were these boys discussed here in detail and is there a chance one or more of them could have been involved or maybe even hung out with or known Hart?

The interview with the father just floored me because he was pretty convinced his son and friends may have been involved. The sneakers he wore and things they told him and something about knowing one of the girls or something.

Just wondering if that was discussed in detail here and what conclusions we came up with about the fathers statements. Was it debunked or still possible?

https://youtu.be/TJ41pYmYzOU

To clarify, I don't think the father in the video was saying his son and friends were at the Boy Scout Camp that night. They were too old to be Boy Scouts. But they apparently were hanging out in one of the 3 caves in the area of Camp Scott where some kind of evidence was found. Probably hanging out there to smoke pot, drink, etc.

ETA: Also a very relevant question your posed: Did any of these boys know Hart? Any of them relatives?

Did you find any links to the old articles about Jimmy Bryan's case?

Also, not sure about the claims from some of them that they knew the girls related to the case. There would have been a big age difference between the victims and these teen boys. Pretty much all the people who were campers or worked as staff (with the exception of Ranger Bob) were from the Tulsa area some distance away. It's possible, but seems unlikely they would be in the same social circle.

Also, regarding some of the theories that any of the victims were targeted, in the pre-trial testimony of the counselors, it was mentioned several times that campers were allowed to choose their own tent and roommates at Kiowa. The director had given them lists with names assigned to tents, but told them they could change them if they wanted. The Kiowa counselors allowed the girls to pick their own tents/roomies hoping it would make them feel more comfortable in their surroundings. That was emphasized quite clearly in the pre-trial hearings, quite a bit of cross-examination related to it. JMO, the prosecution wanted to make clear that none of the victims were targeted, unless someone was in the woods nearby, watching closely during that day to see who was assigned to the victims tent.
 
  • #642
I am just learning some of the details of this case and I am linking below the 3rd video at bottom in post #553 on pg 37 of this thread.
Thanks Betty P for all the other links too. Some good information.

The boys sure did not sound like boy scouts at all. The father talked about his son and his friends who practically lived in the woods according to him.

The person who was convicted of killing his son over two pounds of pot and his brother did not sound like boy scouts to me. The one person went to prison for the murder and I read where the older brother was later convicted of rape with instrumentation of someone else much later.

My question is were these boys discussed here in detail and is there a chance one or more of them could have been involved or maybe even hung out with or known Hart?

The interview with the father just floored me because he was pretty convinced his son and friends may have been involved. The sneakers he wore and things they told him and something about knowing one of the girls or something.

Just wondering if that was discussed in detail here and what conclusions we came up with about the fathers statements. Was it debunked or still possible?

https://youtu.be/TJ41pYmYzOU

This leads me to ask the following - maybe someone living near or in Locust Grove would know this:

The early morning hours of June 13, 1977 was on a Monday.

OK SR82 goes by Camp Scott.

Considering this area - semi-isolation - were there any popular hangouts in the vicinity for teens/early 20's?

I don't mean the camp itself, but the area surrounding the camp.
 
  • #643
Also - how heavily traveled is OK SR82 late at night/wee hours of the morning?
 
  • #644
Did you find any links to the old articles about Jimmy Bryan's case?

Respectfully snipped by me

I found a couple at Newspapers.com, not much information, but dreadfully tragic information about the father of the boy who was arrested for shooting Jimmy Bryan. Both are from The Lawton Constitution:

Left one, dated August 4, 1977
Right one, dated September 3, 1977

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  • #645
  • #646
  • #647
Mayes County Sheriff Glen Weaver was among the first of many investigators to reach the scene. He decided that the slayer had picked that particular tent because it was 50 feet from the others and near thick brush, which would have given the killer cover.

Also — and probers wondered if the killer might have known it — the fatal tent was among very few that did not have an adult counselor sleeping in it.

I think these are the biggest clues to the case. If you were an adult organizing this mass campsite, why would you place one of the tents 50 feet away from all of the others next to heavy brush? And if by some chance you had to because the rest of the campsite was out of space, and you had enough adults to chaperone most but not all of the tents, why would you choose to leave this isolated tent unsupervised, rather than ones that have adults close by?

The only explanation can be that one of the adult supervisors was the killer, or complicit in the killings and made those sleeping arrangements.
 
  • #648
I think these are the biggest clues to the case. If you were an adult organizing this mass campsite, why would you place one of the tents 50 feet away from all of the others next to heavy brush? And if by some chance you had to because the rest of the campsite was out of space, and you had enough adults to chaperone most but not all of the tents, why would you choose to leave this isolated tent unsupervised, rather than ones that have adults close by?

The only explanation can be that one of the adult supervisors was the killer, or complicit in the killings and made those sleeping arrangements.

Does anyone know if the platforms for the platform tents were moveable? Like picked up and carried by two or three men?
 
  • #649
I don't know MaryG, this is the first time I've come across this case. But it seems obvious to me that the sleeping arrangements were made that way intentionally. I can't imagine an adult deciding to put one of the tents 50 feet away from all the others, and if they had to because of space or the campsite layout or whatever, I can't imagine an adult looking out for the children would leave that tent unsupervised. Not to mention they had a lot of chaperones. Even if you're not worried about the worst case scenario that happened, how about just thinking you don't want the girls over there causing mischief or getting into trouble? It's just weird weird weird and seems intentional to me.
 
  • #650
I don't know MaryG, this is the first time I've come across this case. But it seems obvious to me that the sleeping arrangements were made that way intentionally. I can't imagine an adult deciding to put one of the tents 50 feet away from all the others, and if they had to because of space or the campsite layout or whatever, I can't imagine an adult looking out for the children would leave that tent unsupervised. Not to mention they had a lot of chaperones. Even if you're not worried about the worst case scenario that happened, how about just thinking you don't want the girls over there causing mischief or getting into trouble? It's just weird weird weird and seems intentional to me.

Ven, I mentioned awhile back in this thread of the possibility of it being an inside job. If it was - and I know it is a stretch - what would be the motive?

I agree, this really is a very weird case.
 
  • #651
Ven, I mentioned awhile back in this thread of the possibility of it being an inside job. If it was - and I know it is a stretch - what would be the motive?

I agree, this really is a very weird case.

Were all of the adult supervisors female? Were any of them male? If they were all female, maybe the boyfriend or husband or father of one of the counselors was the primary murderer. Maybe the person who made the sleeping arrangements isolated those girls on his behalf.
 
  • #652
I think these are the biggest clues to the case. If you were an adult organizing this mass campsite, why would you place one of the tents 50 feet away from all of the others next to heavy brush? And if by some chance you had to because the rest of the campsite was out of space, and you had enough adults to chaperone most but not all of the tents, why would you choose to leave this isolated tent unsupervised, rather than ones that have adults close by?

The only explanation can be that one of the adult supervisors was the killer, or complicit in the killings and made those sleeping arrangements.

None of the tents had adults sleeping in them. The counselors slept in their own quarters.
 
  • #653
None of the tents had adults sleeping in them. The counselors slept in their own quarters.

I see, thank you. The full-length article on page 1 of this thread said that most of the tents were occupied by chaperones + the kids.
 
  • #654
I read somewhere that there were reports of teenage boys in the nearby cave. Someone said they may have been there smoking pot? And incriminating evidence was found it that cave?

Is it possible those boys were responsible? So many times with child victims people are looking for grown men, but it turns out to be a teenage boy(s). They may not be mentally and physically mature enough at that age to target older women and men, but they go after young children they feel superior to and can torture, assault, and kill.
 
  • #655
I see, thank you. The full-length article on page 1 of this thread said that most of the tents were occupied by chaperones + the kids.

Yeah, unfortunately there are articles here and there that do not have correct information. There were four girls to a tent in 6 tents, and 3 girls in the 7th tent.
 
  • #656
I don't know MaryG, this is the first time I've come across this case. But it seems obvious to me that the sleeping arrangements were made that way intentionally. I can't imagine an adult deciding to put one of the tents 50 feet away from all the others, and if they had to because of space or the campsite layout or whatever, I can't imagine an adult looking out for the children would leave that tent unsupervised. Not to mention they had a lot of chaperones. Even if you're not worried about the worst case scenario that happened, how about just thinking you don't want the girls over there causing mischief or getting into trouble? It's just weird weird weird and seems intentional to me.

Tent #7 wasn't 50 ft away from the other tents. It was the last in a semi-circle of tents, but not far from the next tent. The counselors tent was some distance away from Tent #7.

The only men in the entire camp that night were Camp Scott Ranger Ben, who lived some distance away on the campground with his family and Richard Day, the husband of the camp director. Both were questioned extensively, given poly exams, fingerprinted, gave hair and blood samples. They were both cleared. Neither was anywhere near the Kiowa unit that night, but were probably half a mile away or more.

All the girls tents were checked several times that night, after dark. The latest check IIRC was around 10:30 pm. The last time a counselor got up was around 1:30 am, to escort some girls back from the latrine. The latrine was located not far from Tent #7 and she didn't hear anything unusual in the tent at that time.
 
  • #657
Does anyone know if the platforms for the platform tents were moveable? Like picked up and carried by two or three men?

No, they weren't. That was asked and answered during the pre-trial hearings. They were considered permanent and were left in place all year round, from year to year. IIRC, the wooden posts for the platforms were sunk into the ground. The tents themselves were rolled up and stored away during the off season, inside the kitchen/storage building located in each unit.
 
  • #658
Here's an illustration of the location of tents, etc. for Kiowa unit, from trial exhibits

kiowa-map.jpg


Here's a general overhead map of that portion of the camp where Kiowa and Quapaw units were located. There several other camp units in the area, too

251226_108158132608693_8382364_n_jpg_oh_da320bb3.jpg
 
  • #659
OK so I am new to this case but I did a lot of reading tonight, including a dedicated forum and an excellent 40th anniversary expose that was just published in the Tulsa World last week or two. If any of this is incorrect, please let me know.

1. There was a training week or something before the season in April 1977. A 15 year old long time girl scout who was too old to camp but training as an aide to the adult counselors, had brought a box of donuts. When her and several others returned to a tent or cabin, they found it ransacked. Inside the empty doughnut box was a letter: "kill (repeated again and again). we are going to kill 4 girls". I think many of the media articles mistakenly refer to the mention of three girls in the letter, because that's the number who were eventually killed. But the tents all had four beds and were usually occupied by four girls. Another source I found did say the letter referred to four girls, which makes more sense to me.

2. The letter was dismissed as a prank or hoax and thrown away. The 15 year old aide referred it to the adults, and was told that some other girls had confessed to writing it as a prank. That would be a pretty dark prank but even so it's unlikely because of the ransacking, and so I suspect she was just told that to put her at ease. The adults probably either really thought it was a prank and couldn't prove it, or didn't want to think about the possibility that something more sinister was going on.

3. Over 100 girl scouts arrived at the camp on June 12, 1977. They may have participated in communal events but their individual lots were divided into various sub-groups which consisted of a counselor's tent with three adult women inside, and seven tents with occupancy of up to four girls inside. These were large semi-permanent structures that were stripped down during the off-season, but not moved around or pitched from night to night or troupe to troupe. There was a campfire and latrine area for each of these groups, and perhaps some other small structures.

4. The troupe where the murders took place was not in the back but it was on the edge and most remote part of the camp. The victim's were sleeping in the last tent, furthest away from the counselor's, and literally right up against the dense woods and edge of the property. Due to the poor design of the layout, their tent was not visible to the counselors.

5. The campers and counselors at the site went to bed sometime around 10:30 p.m. but it seems there was still a lot of activity until approx. 1:30 a.m. Possibly some "boy who cried wolf" stuff going on with girls screaming and then giggling shortly after. Others had flashlights on. A few times the counselors had to get out of their tent and go check on the girls to make sure they were alright or tell them to stop messing around and go to sleep. I'm not sure which, but you get the idea.

6. Around 2 a.m. a group of girls in another troupe went to the latrine. As they walked, they crossed path with another group of girls who were returning from the latrine. Those girls said they had seen a man with a red flashlight (emanating red light) in the woods. This second group of girls did not ever see this man or the flashlight, but indeed a red flashlight (emanating red light) was found at the crime scene. The girls are believed to have been murdered sometime between 2-4 a.m.

7. Back at the troupe where the murders took place, one of the counselors was kept up and startled by guttural noises that kept coming from the woods. She woke the other two women sleeping with her and asked if they had heard anything. They had not. She went outside the tent to investigate, and claims that every time she shone her flashlight into the woods, the noises stopped. Eventually, she returned to her tent.

8. I could not confirm but I saw a rumor that one of the counselors in the tent was getting tired of the false alarms and annoyed by the situation in general. Someone claimed she had a boyfriend, and I am very interested to hear about that. Because it comes back to possible theory, that I will got into more detail in a bit.

9. At approx. 3 a.m., at least two girls in two of the other tents heard noises outside and eventually screams. In the tent next to the victims' tent, a flap was opened and a man flashed a flashlight into the tent. A couple of the girls heard screams, including "momma! momma!" While they are afraid, the girls felt like they could do nothing but bury their heads in their pillows and try to go to sleep. Whether the adult counselors heard these screams and ignored them because of the earlier false alarms, or did not hear them because they had fallen asleep, I don't know.

10. At approximately 6 a.m., the counselor who had been constantly checking on the girls got up to walk to the showers. She passed the crime scene, but further down the trail came upon the girls bodies who had been dumped there. Two were bludgeoned and wrapped in their sleeping bags having been the victims of SA. The third was laying out in the open, having been strangled and also the victim of SA.

11. When LE arrived on the scene (approx. 7 a.m.?) the victims were found, their bodies had been dumped just off the path. The main crime scene however was the girls' tent, the inside of which was covered in lots and lots of blood. The evidence that was found is sketchy and differs from account to account, but I saw reports of the red flashlight, rope, tape, gags, hammer and crowbar (the murder weapons used on two of the girls), DNA samples from the SAs, fingerprints, and footsteps and boot markings, some of them in blood.

12. The prime suspect was a local Cherokee man who had escaped from prison after he had previously been convicted of kidnapping and SA. He was a local folk hero among the poor Cherokee community, unjustly so in my opinion, as a man who had already done terrible terrible things regardless of his guilt or innocence in this case. But he was also probably the target of prejudice from the mostly white local LE and the more affluent white Tulsa community who were sending their girls to this camp.

13. It seems as though the state did not have much evidence against the suspect, and there are questions that some of the evidence they did have was planted. Apparently, the Sheriff was arch-enemies with the suspect, having had many encounters with him over the years and even having him escape from his jail twice. The incriminating photos found at his hideout were supposedly seen by a jailer in the Sheriff's office many years earlier--just one example. Meanwhile, there were two different types of shoe-prints found, discounting the one murderer theory. They apparently did not match the defendant's shoe size. The fingerprints did not match or were then deemed to be smudged. Hair analysis used at trial was later deemed to be forensically worthless by the FBI.

14. Eventually, the defendant was acquitted, and the case has never been retried. Later DNA tests have been inconclusive, although they did yield one surprising result--female DNA one one of the victims. It couldn't be ruled out that the DNA was from one of the victims, but it could have also been from a female perpetrator.

Again, if any of these are wrong, please correct me. I will now post some thoughts.
 
  • #660
I think these murders were most likely committed by more than one person--at least 2, probably 3 or 4. There were two different shoe prints so we can start there at a minimum. There was also the "we" in the April note. There were three different murder weapons or types of murder committed. One girl was bludgeoned with a hammer, one was bludgeoned with a crowbar, and one was strangled with ligature. That is why I think there were at least 2 and possibly 3 murderers. There may have been a fourth if they had been expecting to kill 4 girls, one victim for each.

2. The shoeprints not only lead to the victims tent and then out to the trail, but somewhere I saw it reported they lead to the counselors tent and items from the tent were stolen.This is why I mentioned in the previous post that I would like more information on whether the rumor was true that one of the counselors had a boyfriend and was annoyed by all of the children. I think it's possible one of the counselors may have been one of the murderers. The girls may have been at first approached by someone they trusted. The murderers knew which tent to go for furthest away from the adults. There was female DNA determined to be present in one of the SAs.

3. It could not be determined if the female DNA was from one of the victims or someone else, but I think it had must have been from someone else. The other two victims had male DNA on them. The victim who had female DNA did not. If she had been SA by the man or men who killed the other girls, I would think male DNA would have been present.

4. Finally, the bodies were staged alongside the path back in towards the rest of the camp. I think a man just sneaking in from the woods would have retreated right back into the woods. After he had just raped and murdered three girls why would he risk walking into the interior of the camp? Even if only to dump their bodies it would risk discovery. It does not make sense.

I strongly suspect that at least one person inside the camp was involved. I am suspicious if it would have been on of the victims' own counselors, because of the footprints that went into their tent and the missing items. How could someone have entered their tent without them knowing? I just don't believe it.

The most heartbreaking thing about this is those poor girls were the quiet and shy ones. They were the outsiders. The girls were all allowed to pick their roommates. These three were the odd ones left out at the end. All the other girls picked their tents 1-6. And these three were the last ones, 7, and they died. I know it's hindsight but I want to feel like if you've got three girls who didn't get picked and didn't make friends, you would put those girls next to the counselors. It just would have meant four other girls would have died, but my heart breaks knowing they were the odd ones out and then that was their fate. :(
 
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