OK OK - Girl Scout Murders, Lori Farmer, 8, Michelle Guse, 9, Doris Milner, 10, 1977

[Ven]

Didn't see that in the pretrial testimony. You can check at this link. Camp counselors testimony is Day 1 and 2

http://girlscoutmurders.com/PRETRIAL.html

Had to do a lot of backtracking to find where I got that from after all my cramming on this case yesterday, but I finally found it--

Military boot footprints were found on the grounds and in the victims' tent. The killer had walked past and into the Kiowa counselors' tent and had stolen a purse and some eyeglasses.

http://www.reddirtreport.com/oklaho...camp-scott-girl-scout-murders-remain-unsolved

The author at that site sources Someone Cry for the Children, and The Camp Scott Murders by C.S. Kelly in their article. I have not read those books and the particular excerpt is unattributed, but my guess would it came from one of those books, who the author was using as sources.

Additionally, I don't see why it would be a revelation that bootprints were found leading up to or inside the counselors tent. After all, how else do you suppose the items like the glasses were stolen?

Have never heard anything about that. Her husband was the only person at the camp that day. You may want to offer a link or be aware of Websleuth's TOS here when making that kind of accusation.

It was discussed by multiple posters in this very thread! That's where I got that from. And it wasn't an accusation, since it was discussed by users in this thread, of which I'm about halfway through reading. Like anyone else new to the case I just saw some posts and asked for more information. I think your comment is a little aggressive and uncalled for.

Although you were respectful and analytical in the rest of your post and took the time to reply, so no hard feelings.

The question I always have when considering whether "insiders" were part of the crime is: "What did they do with their bloody clothes?"

That's a good question. Co-murderers who entered the grounds could have just left of course. But an insider, maybe they changed? Maybe the counselor who was on her way to the shower was actually on her way back from the shower?

If you read the pre-trial testimony, you'll see that the entire Kiowa unit was quickly treated as a crime scene. LE had the counselors return to the unit to retrieve the other campers and escort them to a safe place. No one was allowed to take anything with them. Counselors were not allowed to return to the unit until a day or 2 later, when they were accompanied by 2 or 3 LEO's including the asst. prosecutor. At that time, every counselor's clothing & possessions were examined and inventoried by LE. All three were questioned about anything that was missing from the tent. That's when some of them realized they had a missing purse, a few pairs of glasses, glasses case, etc.

How could these items have been stolen from the counselors tent in pitch darkness in the middle of the night? Without them knowing? Without them being attacked?

And one of the regulars on the dedicated GS murders forum makes several references to an unidentified man being spotted on the grounds the night before the murders, to which one of the counselors replied "don't worry, that's just my boyfriend". I don't know which counselor that was, but boys and men were not permitted on the grounds of course.

 

[Betty P]

Had to do a lot of backtracking to find where I got that from after all my cramming on this case yesterday, but I finally found it--



http://www.reddirtreport.com/oklaho...camp-scott-girl-scout-murders-remain-unsolved

The author at that site sources Someone Cry for the Children, and The Camp Scott Murders by C.S. Kelly in their article. I have not read those books and the particular excerpt is unattributed, but my guess would it came from one of those books, who the author was using as sources.

Additionally, I don't see why it would be a revelation that bootprints were found leading up to or inside the counselors tent. After all, how else do you suppose the items like the glasses were stolen?



It was discussed by multiple posters in this very thread! That's where I got that from. And it wasn't an accusation, since it was discussed by users in this thread, of which I'm about halfway through reading. Like anyone else new to the case I just saw some posts and asked for more information. I think your comment is a little aggressive and uncalled for.

Although you were respectful and analytical in the rest of your post and took the time to reply, so no hard feelings.



That's a good question. Co-murderers who entered the grounds could have just left of course. But an insider, maybe they changed? Maybe the counselor who was on her way to the shower was actually on her way back from the shower?



How could these items have been stolen from the counselors tent in pitch darkness in the middle of the night? Without them knowing? Without them being attacked?

And one of the regulars on the dedicated GS murders forum makes several references to an unidentified man being spotted on the grounds the night before the murders, to which one of the counselors replied "don't worry, that's just my boyfriend". I don't know which counselor that was, but boys and men were not permitted on the grounds of course.

Thanks for your reply.

Re tracks in the counselors tent

Yes, they found the suspect's tracks inside the victim's tent and on the trail outside, but they didn't find them in or outside the counselor's tent. They did suspect one of the perps came inside the tent. There was a towel hanging on the outside front of the counselor's tent they had been using to clean mud off their feet. It had blood wiped on it. Carla W's glasses were stolen from a crate next to her bed, which was also located at the front of the tent. The counselors slept with their front tent flaps raised, so anyone could reach inside and take things without entering the tent. Susan Emery, whose bed was across from Carla's and open to the front of the tent, had her purse and some glasses & glass case stolen from under her bed. Not sure if LE ever decided if the perp walked in or not, but they surmised he could have grabbed things from the outside.

Claim that Camp Director's son was a pedophile


Have never seen that anywhere. Even if it has been discussed at another forum, its rumor and not allowed here. The camp director was not that old at the time of the murders. Her children wouldn't have been very old and they were not with her at the camp.

Boyfriend at camp/Counselors did it

Susan Emery testified that her boyfriend gave her a ride to the Camp in the morning, before the kids arrived. He walked around with her a little, then left. Kids didn't arrive until hours later. Witnesses verified that account. Camp gates were locked that night by Ranger Ben, around 10 pm. Only he and the camp director had keys to the gate and both had possession of them all night.

As for CW changing out of bloody clothes as she walked to the shower - she never made it to take a shower because she found the girls before she got there. Dee Elder awoke at the same time as Carla and knew how long it took her to return and raise the alarm. After discovering them, she went back to the tent to put on a shirt, then escorted the girls out. If she had bloody clothes that morning on the way to the shower, the others there would have seen them. The other counselors were already awake back at the tent, they would have seen her change clothes. Where would she have put her bloody clothes that they wouldn't have been found?


There are a lot of rumors on the internet about this case. You have to be careful to look for some validation in the news media or LE information to verify.

 

[Ven]

Thank you for your reply Betty.

I am reading through the pre-trial volumes right now and there seems to be a lot of discussion focused around a camp counselor or previous camp counselor with the initials LL. Did LE suspect the sneaker print belonged to her? There were also questions directed at the camp director about homosexual activity. So far I've only seen where the judge ruled the defense would have to come back and ask that at a later date, but it seemed to be line of questioning during the OSBI's investigation. Was this because of the nature of the SA on one of the victims or was it in reference to an investigative suspicion in the late 1970s--pre 2000s DNA test--that a female may have been among the murderers? It seems like they considered the sneaker print (shoesize?) to be from that of a female perpetrator.

If anyone can expound on these things and possible theories, that would be appreciated.

I have seen that other girls reported seeing two men outside shortly before the murders. One had military boots. They were shouting at each other and one was swinging from a latrine door. The girls were frightened and hid in their sleeping bag. The record was not clear as I read it whether that incident happened at unit where the girls were murdered, or a different unit. Since G. Hart was the accused in this case, as a 30-something year old man I find it very hard to believe a 30-something year old man would have been "swinging from the latrine door". Maybe I would have done that kind of horseplay 20+ years ago, I don't know. Sounds like something a teenager would do, or maybe someone with developmental disabilities might do as a late teen or very young adult.

But again, I think crimes like this are generally committed by small groups of young people (teens-early 20s). There were two different shoes--the sneaker and boots--known or believed to have been at the crime scene. And I saw someone else make a great point that nobody, nobody would be going through those dense woods at night, infiltrating the property, wearing only sneakers, because of the high risk of snakebite.

 

[Betty P]

Thank you for your reply Betty.

I am reading through the pre-trial volumes right now and there seems to be a lot of discussion focused around a camp counselor or previous camp counselor with the initials LL. Did LE suspect the sneaker print belonged to her? There were also questions directed at the camp director about homosexual activity. So far I've only seen where the judge ruled the defense would have to come back and ask that at a later date, but it seemed to be line of questioning during the OSBI's investigation. Was this because of the nature of the SA on one of the victims or was it in reference to an investigative suspicion in the late 1970s--pre 2000s DNA test--that a female may have been among the murderers? It seems like they considered the sneaker print (shoesize?) to be from that of a female perpetrator.

If anyone can expound on these things and possible theories, that would be appreciated.

I have seen that other girls reported seeing two men outside shortly before the murders. One had military boots. They were shouting at each other and one was swinging from a latrine door. The girls were frightened and hid in their sleeping bag. The record was not clear as I read it whether that incident happened at unit where the girls were murdered, or a different unit. Since G. Hart was the accused in this case, as a 30-something year old man I find it very hard to believe a 30-something year old man would have been "swinging from the latrine door". Maybe I would have done that kind of horseplay 20+ years ago, I don't know. Sounds like something a teenager would do, or maybe someone with developmental disabilities might do as a late teen or very young adult.

But again, I think crimes like this are generally committed by small groups of young people (teens-early 20s). There were two different shoes--the sneaker and boots--known or believed to have been at the crime scene. And I saw someone else make a great point that nobody, nobody would be going through those dense woods at night, infiltrating the property, wearing only sneakers, because of the high risk of snakebite.

I think I've read the name of LL so far, but haven't found anything else in the testimony. Do you recall in whose testimony they asked a lot of questions? I'm skipping around some and haven't come on it yet.

Question: Have you noticed a lot of questions from attorneys about a suicide that happened in the area south of the Camp a couple of days after the murders? Wonder what that was?

Haven't heard the story of girls seeing someone swinging around on latrine doors. Sounds like something other scouts would do. JMO, after the murders were in the news, quite a few of the Girl Scouts imagined they saw or heard things. Some seemed pretty valid. I usually pay attention to those that were reported before and in the days right after the murders.

Anyone want to collaborate on a more detailed map of the area around Camp Scott? I'm getting all turned around trying to identify the location of the different people who lived near the Camp who testified (Shroff, GLH's mother, Cavalier farm, etc. Also trying to figure out exact locations of the 3 caves. I could swear I saw a map with the cave locations marked, but can't find it now.

 

[Ven]

I think I've read the name of LL so far, but haven't found anything else in the testimony. Do you recall in whose testimony they asked a lot of questions? I'm skipping around some and haven't come on it yet.

I read all of volume 8. Several counselors from nearby units were interviewed. The defense asked them about LL around the same time they were being asked about the sneakers. A photograph was mentioned that, I think, was framed and stored away. In the camp director's testimony in Volume 2, where I'm at right now, she was also asked these questions.

Question: Have you noticed a lot of questions from attorneys about a suicide that happened in the area south of the Camp a couple of days after the murders? Wonder what that was?

I have not come across that yet in the pretrial volumes, but I have a lot more to read.

Haven't heard the story of girls seeing someone swinging around on latrine doors. Sounds like something other scouts would do. JMO, after the murders were in the news, quite a few of the Girl Scouts imagined they saw or heard things. Some seemed pretty valid. I usually pay attention to those that were reported before and in the days right after the murders.

No, the girls mentioned this while they were still at Camp Scott on June 13th. They were with their counselor and everyone knew that there was an emergency, but the girls did not know about the murders and weren't imagining things because of publicity. They told their counselor that day they saw two men outside their tents that night, and one of them was swinging from the latrine door. One had on army boots, later corroborated by the footprints at the crime scene. The girls were afraid and buried their heads in their sleeping bag. The counselor took the girls to speak to the OSBI agents and tell them what they saw.

It was in the recorded testimony given by one of the camp counselors in Volume 8. I couldn't make out whether these girls were in the victims' unit or a nearby unit, the response was not clear enough in the reading, and there is also a smudged line or two in the transcript that makes part of the testimony regarding the male suspects illegible.

 

[Betty P]

I read all of volume 8. Several counselors from nearby units were interviewed. The defense asked them about LL around the same time they were being asked about the sneakers. A photograph was mentioned that, I think, was framed and stored away. In the camp director's testimony in Volume 2, where I'm at right now, she was also asked these questions.



I have not come across that yet in the pretrial volumes, but I have a lot more to read.



No, the girls mentioned this while they were still at Camp Scott on June 13th. They were with their counselor and everyone knew that there was an emergency, but the girls did not know about the murders and weren't imagining things because of publicity. They told their counselor that day they saw two men outside their tents that night, and one of them was swinging from the latrine door. One had on army boots, later corroborated by the footprints at the crime scene. The girls were afraid and buried their heads in their sleeping bag. The counselor took the girls to speak to the OSBI agents and tell them what they saw.

It was in the recorded testimony given by one of the camp counselors in Volume 8. I couldn't make out whether these girls were in the victims' unit or a nearby unit, the response was not clear enough in the reading, and there is also a smudged line or two in the transcript that makes part of the testimony regarding the male suspects illegible.

Ok. Will check Vol 8. I need to start taking a lot of notes.

 

[Ven]

Volume 8 was interesting.

Testimony of NC, a counselor in Arapaho unit:

Counselor NC testified that OSBI agents questioned her about the nature of the relationships of some of the people at camp and specifically if she knew anything about any homosexual relationships. I didn't really pay any attention to this when I read it the first time, but it appears the OSBI also asked those questions of the camp director, in an even more personal way.

Was that because of the nature of the SA on one of the victims? To me it sounds like there is more allusion to a female perpetrator instead.

Testimony of MCT, Waterfront Counselor:

At a later date after the murders, Counselor MCT was interviewed by OSBI agents. She was shown a photograph and a tennis shoe by an OSBI agent. She recognized the person in the photograph as LL, female staff member from the year before, picture taken at Quapaw unit. The model of tennis shoes shown to her did not stand out in any way.

Question: was LL only a staff member for one year? This was the first time I came across LL but there are many other mentions about her in other places in the record, always during defense questioning and always referencing the photograph and OSBI interviews.

Testimony of CS, a Counselor in Quapaw unit:

She knew that two counselors had been followed up the main trail by flashlight during orientation week, the week before the murders. I don't know if this is the June 6th incident or not. They ran to a staff house and hid under a vehicle.

*Page 986*
Line of questioning starts a few pages earlier and reach this point--

Counselor CS of Quapaw unit alerted the authorities to what her girls had told her, and they were then taken up to be questioned by OSBI. The girls said they saw two men behind their tents that night, and one over by the latrine. One had on army boots and khaki pants, the one that was on the tent. The girls had looked out the back of their tent and saw his feet. Another of the men was swinging back and forth on the latrine door and they were talking back and forth to each other. The girls got so scared they crawled into their sleeping bags and slept that way the rest of the night.

These were reported on June 13th before the kids knew what happened and before it was sensationalized in the media, so I think the army boot description makes the girls' accounts credible.

Counselor CS was also asked by OSBI to identify tennis shoes and a photograph that had been torn up and pieced together. She did not recognize either of these.

West Memphis trucker:

Possible suspect whose family lived near Camp Scott and whom he visited and stayed with often. Interviewed many many times by OSBI and FBI agents. Was administered a polygraph.

Testimony of JLM, Counselor at Choctaw unit:

She was also questioned later by OSBI agents about the shoes and the photograph. Whatever was entered into the record about her knowledge of the photograph is not available--four pages are missing.

 

[Betty P]

Volume 8 was interesting.

Testimony of NC, a counselor in Arapaho unit:

Counselor NC testified that OSBI agents questioned her about the nature of the relationships of some of the people at camp and specifically if she knew anything about any homosexual relationships. I didn't really pay any attention to this when I read it the first time, but it appears the OSBI also asked those questions of the camp director, in an even more personal way.

Was that because of the nature of the SA on one of the victims? To me it sounds like there is more allusion to a female perpetrator instead.

Testimony of MCT, Waterfront Counselor:

At a later date after the murders, Counselor MCT was interviewed by OSBI agents. She was shown a photograph and a tennis shoe by an OSBI agent. She recognized the person in the photograph as LL, female staff member from the year before, picture taken at Quapaw unit. The model of tennis shoes shown to her did not stand out in any way.

Question: was LL only a staff member for one year? This was the first time I came across LL but there are many other mentions about her in other places in the record, always during defense questioning and always referencing the photograph and OSBI interviews.

Testimony of CS, a Counselor in Quapaw unit:

She knew that two counselors had been followed up the main trail by flashlight during orientation week, the week before the murders. I don't know if this is the June 6th incident or not. They ran to a staff house and hid under a vehicle.

*Page 986*
Line of questioning starts a few pages earlier and reach this point--

Counselor CS of Quapaw unit alerted the authorities to what her girls had told her, and they were then taken up to be questioned by OSBI. The girls said they saw two men behind their tents that night, and one over by the latrine. One had on army boots and khaki pants, the one that was on the tent. The girls had looked out the back of their tent and saw his feet. Another of the men was swinging back and forth on the latrine door and they were talking back and forth to each other. The girls got so scared they crawled into their sleeping bags and slept that way the rest of the night.

These were reported on June 13th before the kids knew what happened and before it was sensationalized in the media, so I think the army boot description makes the girls' accounts credible.

Counselor CS was also asked by OSBI to identify tennis shoes and a photograph that had been torn up and pieced together. She did not recognize either of these.

West Memphis trucker:

Possible suspect whose family lived near Camp Scott and whom he visited and stayed with often. Interviewed many many times by OSBI and FBI agents. Was administered a polygraph.

Testimony of JLM, Counselor at Choctaw unit:

She was also questioned later by OSBI agents about the shoes and the photograph. Whatever was entered into the record about her knowledge of the photograph is not available--four pages are missing.

WRT the questions about homosexuality, they asked that of a lot of the people who worked at the camp. As far as SA evidence at the scene, not sure there was anything to indicate that. I assume they asked that question simply because it was a camp full of girls and women and that CW was the one to first find them. It was also Oklahoma in the 1970s. Obviously, it was a male who attacked DM, as they discovered seminal fluid on her that came very close to matching GLH's DNA. The various physical descriptions by witnesses indicate it was a male sexual attack. Sheriff Weaver and another LEO said there was an area in the dirt below DM's lower body where it looked like a man's knees had dug into the dirt, created a trough, during the sexual assault.

The West Memphis trucker was interviewed, IIRC, because of a tip from another state.

Missing pages - yes, I've found that a few times in the docs, sometimes pages are out of sequence. It was a group of volunteers who got these copies from the state and scanned them.

There was also mention of hearsay evidence with one of the counselors saying a LE officer told her he heard that CW had wiped up the blood in Tent #7 while others were looking at the victim's bodies. This would have been gossip. Several of the first people on the scene saw immediately that the blood was smeared. Also, they later surmised the blood had been wiped up with one of the mattress covers from a victim's cot. IIRC, that mattress cover was found in the sleeping bag with one of the victims. Seems likely that once the word got around the Camp that morning that three girls were dead, the rumors probably started flying.

 

[huxley72]

Here's an illustration of the location of tents, etc. for Kiowa unit, from trial exhibits

View attachment 118817


Here's a general overhead map of that portion of the camp where Kiowa and Quapaw units were located. There several other camp units in the area, too

View attachment 118818

Hi Betty I couldn't help but notice that on the first diagram tent 7 is turned differently? Is that just a glitch or was the tent turned in a different direction?

 

[Ven]

I may have been mistaken about the camp director's children earlier, or maybe the people I was quoting were mistaken. The testimony stated that it was actually the ranger who was living on-site with his wife and 3 of 4 children. Only one of them was mentioned by name and age, because the ranger went and picked her up at work that night. She was 16.

Do we know the sex and ages of all his children? How thoroughly were they investigated?

I keep coming back to the witness reports of two men (or older boys) swinging from latrine doors and multiple shoeprints at the scene. The latrine door incident is also consistent with someone opening the tent flaps to the tent next to the victims' tent and peering inside, which I think may have been a similar bored, idle action by a group member waiting for the crime to commence.

 

[huxley72]

I have to say the testimony about the two guys talking back and forth the night of the murders had slipped by me. And by reading the trial transcripts it was kinda an afterthought for the LE and everyone involved. I mean why don't we have testimony of these witnesses? I still don't know how three people could be talking back and forth and not wake up any counselor. And I don't know how they could move around the whole camp find time to steal things rape and kill three girls without leaving so much as any good evidence. My gut says one person did it but reading all the testimony I see how it seems that one person would be impossible.

 

[MaryG12]

I have to say the testimony about the two guys talking back and forth the night of the murders had slipped by me. And by reading the trial transcripts it was kinda an afterthought for the LE and everyone involved. I mean why don't we have testimony of these witnesses? I still don't know how three people could be talking back and forth and not wake up any counselor. And I don't know how they could move around the whole camp find time to steal things rape and kill three girls without leaving so much as any good evidence. My gut says one person did it but reading all the testimony I see how it seems that one person would be impossible.

And what about the other Girl Scouts in the other tents at Kiowa? If Lori, Michelle and Doris were screaming for help when the perp(s) entered their tent, did that noise not wake up the other girls? Were they sound asleep?

 

[Ambitioned]

I forget, were there cicadas that night? A child in distress would be hard to pick out if there were. The noise can be deafening. OTOH, not to be mean but DE and CW weren't very attentive IMO. DE thought the blood was a nosebleed and CW thought one of the kids started their period. Come on. CW saw a dead body and sleeping bags and thinks the blood is from a period? No wonder they wrote off the screams as animal sounds or excitement from the first night/ ghost stories.

I'm going through transcripts too and DE can't remember what color the towel in the counselor's tent was or what the imprint on the bottom of her own shoes looked like. DE says she didn't peek outside because all the flaps were down. CW says all flaps were down except the front ones. :gaah:

 

[Ven]

Forgive me here, I'm casting a wide net in order to look at all possibilities.

Testimony of SE, Counselor at Kiowa unit:

She testified that her boyfriend/fiance arrived at the camp with her.
Question: What was his age? His initials were RH, correct? How thoroughly were these two investigated?

Counselor SE then testified she went on a short, secluded hike together with her bf and he departed before the girls arrived. She was the counselor who said "don't worry, that's just my boyfriend" when someone else had remarked about a suspicious man being on the grounds.

Question: Was the "don't worry, he's just my boyfriend" incident earlier that day, June 12th, or did it occur during orientation week?

Unlike most of the counselors that I have read about so far, who had been doing GS for years, Counselor SE testified that she had been to Camp Scott one time, ten years earlier.
Question: What made her want to come back and be a counselor for these girls that summer? Was she ever asked to provide that answer?

Counselor SE testified that after dinner and putting the girls to bed, she left Kiowa unit at 9 p.m. and returned at approximately 10 p.m. She testified that she was not on duty, so that she was allowed to go to the staff house and that's where she went.

Question: Did other staff or counselors corroborate her account that she was at the staff house for most of the time between the hours of 9 p.m. and 10 p.m. that night? She did not meet with anyone else that time?

Counselor SE testified that when she returned to Kiowa unit appox. 10 p.m., some CITs were there visiting with the other two counselors, CW and DE. This was corroborated in the testimony by one of the CITs that I read in Volume 8. These other girls all knew each other, but Counselor SE said herself on the record that she was an outsider. She didn't really know any of these people there.

Statement: Nothing wrong with that, but worth noting. I would again like to come back to the question, why did she decide to serve as a Counselor at Camp Scott in 1977?

After the CITs departed, Counselor SE testified that she went to bed shortly after, around 10:30 p.m. Unlike all of the other counselors at Kiowa Unit and other nearby units, who testified they were awake for awhile afterwards dealing with the roudy girls, Counselor SE testified that after going to bed at 10:30 p.m., the next thing she remembers was being woken up at 6:00 a.m. by CW's alarm.

That is a very sound sleep.

Upon being woken up by CW's alarm, Counselor SE testified that she groaned and then rolled over and tried to go back to sleep. The next thing she remembers was being roused by CW who returned to the tent. CW told her that something was wrong, and they needed to check on the girls. Counselor SE put on her glasses and boots, and then accompanied or joined CW outside. They started by checking Tent 1 first, and had proceeded to Tent 3. At that time, DE--who had started at Tent 7, alerted the other two counselors that those girls were missing.

Question: Counselor SE said in the testimony that the three of them had decided to start checking at each end of tents and meet in the middle. How did that discussion play out? Who was the second person to join CW on the search, or did both Miss E's step outside at about the same time? Did Counselor SE take action to avoid Tent 7? Were her actions to join CW at Tent 1 normal? Did she express any reticence to beginning her check at the other end? Did she specifically suggest that Counselor DE start her search at the other end? I'm sure some of you will get my point.

Later, Counselor SE testified that she went down the path and saw the body of DM herself. She didn't get too close, turned around, and screamed. She returned to Kiowa unit, entered her tent, and changed out of her boots and into her tennis shoes. She also put her contacts in.

Question: why did Counselor SE change out of her boots and into her tennis shoes? Do we know what shoe size SE was on June 12/13, 1977? Was this angle on her thoroughly investigated? Were her shoes checked before she left Camp Scott?

I ask these questions because it was her towel that was found to have been used to clean up blood from Tent #7. And her purse, which she testified she slept with partially under her--turned up missing. Of course, the possibility has to be considered that *IF* she were involved, and I'm not saying she was, personal items could have gone missing because they had accumulated blood splatter on them. Why a pursue would have blood splatter on it given the events is beyond me however.

 

[Ven]

To answer one of my own questions, Counselor SE testified that she was not asked about the tennis shoes until a couple of months before the hearing, roughly early 1978. I find this inconsistent with the testimony of other counselors at the camp, in other units, who testified they were asked about a photograph and tennis shoes by OSBI investigators in the weeks after the murders.

Was she really not asked about the tennis shoes, or her shoe size measured, or her shoe inventory even investigated, during the preliminary stages of the investigation?

 

[Jmac85]

I'm new to this and have just started reading up on this case. I have gone through all 35 pages on this forum today and have bookmarked several sites and articles that have been posted by some of you to read also. Especially the pre trial transcripts.

I hope to be able to contribute more once I become more educated about some things, but initial thoughts are that this is an incredibly creepy case that has a lot of unanswered questions 40 years later.

The only thing I can think of for why some of these leads or claims were not looked into more was LE locked in on GLH and that was their sole focus. Then once the not guilty verdict came they were left with nothing.

The man peaking into the tents, or the one someone saw swinging from the latrine, I just feel from reading some things so far that these were pretty good leads at the time and I didn't see a whole lot on them, but like I said I am just getting started in looking through everything and trying to sort it all out.

This is my first time doing anything like this but I've always been interested in these cases and felt a need to really dig in to this one for some reason. So I hope I can be of some help in some way.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[wfgodot]

I've toyed with the notion that this was a folie à deux, with a man and a woman as perpetrators, the latter able quickly to establish trust and familiar with the nature of the scene, the former the motive force and the destroyer.

But over 40 years time one thinks of many scenarios. I do still believe this is a solvable crime.

 

[huxley72]

I too think of all kinds of scenarios, but one of the couselors working that year does not seem to fit. I am not discounting from previous years because it seemed like they had knowledge of when the scouts would be there and very good knowledge of the camp itself. Its one of those cases that you know most of the people involved have had to move on. Forty years is a lot of years and if you were to relive it everyday and chase all the rabbits down the hole then your mind would end up completely gone. Sane people can not fathom this kind of assault and why? But hopefully the perpertrator if not caught has died some time ago or soon. And hopefully never committed another murder like this. While the pre trial transcripts are really good and help look into the crime itself, it was about trying to prove Gene Hart did it or he didn't. Lots of info I am sure the OSBI has not shared and its a shame, they should now being this long in case it does involve other suspects.

 

[Ven]

I've toyed with the notion that this was a folie à deux, with a man and a woman as perpetrators, the latter able quickly to establish trust and familiar with the nature of the scene, the former the motive force and the destroyer.

But over 40 years time one thinks of many scenarios. I do still believe this is a solvable crime.

My suspicion is that the murderers were a group of young people, teens-early 20s. Probably 2-4 of them in total. A female or two could have been involved.

The people matching this description are the counselors, perhaps children of staff on the grounds, children or grown children of neighboring land owners, and the like. JC, whose property I believe bordered Camp Scott where the bodies were found, testified that his "boy" lived in another house on his property about a quarter mile away. Just one example.

Of course, if my suspicion were accurate, not all of the people fitting this profile were involved. But it would be worth investigating to see who knew who, what kind of relationships did they have, etc.

 

[Ven]

I also think the tennis shoe footprint is a huge huge clue. I believe that model of shoe had only been sold in department stores for a few weeks at the time of the murders, is that correct? I did see somewhere a list of all the places in Oklahoma where it was sold, but I don't remember the list. Were they all urban and suburban stores? Anything in the rural areas like near Camp Scott?

I just don't think people who live in that area, even someone like G. Hart hiding out, are going to be trekking through heavy brush at night in that area wearing tennis shoes, and sneaking into the camp.

My suspicion is that the tennis shoes involved in making those prints belonged to someone present in Camp Scott the night of the murders.