OK OK - Girl Scout Murders, Lori Farmer, 8, Michelle Guse, 9, Doris Milner, 10, 1977

[charleslennon]

I hadn't thought of that.

 

[charleslennon]

There have been two separate DNA tests over the years. Currently, a new test is still being processed as I post this comment [2018]. The first test performed at trial was of a hair fiber that was stuck to tape that was covering the flashlight found at the crime scene. Yes, I know this isn't a DNA test but bear with me.

The hair had characteristics of a Native American/Asian phenotype. DNA testing wasn't even out of the practical phase at that time [circa 1977]. An actual mtDNA test was performed in 2002, but investigators claim the samples of saliva, seminal fluid, etc. were too degraded, BUT there were three out of five samples that did indicate [a] Hart. But as I stated before there is a new mtDNA test in the works.

For whatever reason, it is taking forever to process.

What most people don't appreciate is that even with mtDNA testing there may be a problem.

During the initial investigation, the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation concluded that Gene Leroy Hart had over 250+ relatives that lived in the area that shared his mtDNA [circa 1977]. You read that right 250+ people, (if the new tests come back at least >50%) could be implicated in the crimes!

Now as an investigator and or prosecutor taking such findings to a judge for a warrant would be prohibited. Even if the warrant was granted, can you imagine any jury convicting, on such evidence? Still, 25-100% conclusive mtDNA match would be needed, prior to any further investigation. Such findings would eliminate distant [male] cousins, but not first/second cousins, brothers and or NEPHEWS. On top of that "means and opportunity" would need to be established, in 1977.

Now let us assume that all the necessary evidence against a suspect(s) has been collected for a charge and trial. There would need to be a change in venue. With such a large Cherokee population, in the region where the crimes occurred, a jury picked from the available pool would most undoubtedly be biased, IF NOT RELATED to GL Hart. Remember this was forty years ago. The number of Hart's relatives could be near 600+ plus members.

Not to get off topic, but I don't know if Hart did the crime. But I do know he was a and died [killed?] in prison like the dog he was. That being said, I believe more than one person committed this crime and somebody knows the truth.

Here are four links that have left me perplexed. I believe once you have viewed these links, you may have more questions than answers.

Scroll down to 'darren'
The Girl Scout murders revisited

These two links are from a mini-doc that was made in 1990. Why nobody references these three testimonials is beyond me.

Now the last post is something most people don't know, but chilling. It is from a discussion board, regarding the murders as well as other crimes that occurred in the region. Any one heard of Karl Lee Myers?

Two more things of note. Gene Leroy Hart, while a high school student, belonged to a "rape gang". This group of adolescent criminals preyed on Native American women, for some time. It has been suggested that the reason the group wasn't caught, was due to Hart's family dominance in the area.

Now, some context. I knew Denise Milner. She and her family were and are parishioners at Antioch Baptist Church in Tulsa, OK. Denise played with me and rocked me to sleep when I was a toddler. She could have been my big sister. She was my "sister". I still miss her. The last time she saw me, she gave me a kiss on the cheek and smiled at me.

I will never forget what was done to her and her fellow scouts, her new friends.

I'm close approaching 50 years of age. As a veteran US Army Medic, I witnessed many tragedies and injustices against women and children perpetrated by strangers and worse, family members. Every time I treated or testified about what I saw during their treatment I thought of Denise and her friends, my other big sisters.

Time is running out. I SAY AGAIN, TIME IS RUNNING OUT!!!

If you wish to help, petition news organizations to keep the story active before these crimes become another mystery.

Thank you all, for your concern, and outrage.

 

[charleslennon]

 

[MysteryMaven]

I have spent some time reading this thread and other online sources on this case. I hope this current DNA test gives the answers everyone is looking for. I am glad people are still discussing this case and trying to find answers after 41 years.
I do have a couple of questions. Since I have read so much from different sources things are getting a bit confusing.
The finger print on the flashlight-I thought I read that it was too smudged to get any kind of information from it. Then Gene Hart's lawyer proclaimed it "didn't match Gene Leroy Hart". I can't find an answer to if the fingerprint was a full print that was actually compared against GLH and others or if it was too smudged to analyze and the lawyer misrepresented that evidence to help raise reasonable doubt.
Also-CW's glasses. I read that GLH was either in possession of them or wearing them when he was arrested. I also read that a search worker found them in the woods. Just wondering which one is accurate? Obviously if GLH had them when he was arrested that puts him at the crime scene at some point close to the murders.
I felt very sorry for CW and the other counselor who were first on the scene of the murders. I don't find anything either of them said or did to be suspicious that would make me think they had anything to do with the crime. Way too out there of a theory for me.
Is it 100% accurate to say that no one ever entered the tent besides law enforcement after the murders? CW or Dee didn't run to the victim's tent or anything to take a look inside? A lot was made of the tennis shoe print over the boot print but could it have been from someone like CW checking the tent to make sure no one else was in there hurt, injured etc? TIA.

 

[ruger_rhys]

James Earl Ray ( patsy for the MLK assassination ) On June 10, 1977, Ray and six other convicts had escaped from Brushy Mountain State Penitentiary in Petros, Tennessee. They were recaptured on June 13. Very strange coincidence

 

[ruger_rhys]

Standard issue prison boots might have possibly made the size 8 prints found at scene?

 

[chaleigh26]

True crime Garage has a 3 part series about the Oklahoma Girl Scout Murders.
True Crime Garage

 

[nikod]

I live in Oklahoma and recently listened to episodes on both cases (OK girl scout murders and West Memphis three). I've always felt that whoever murdered the West Memphis boys had to have been a serial killer because it was so ritualistic and well planned. After listening to an episode regarding the girl scout murders, a few things stuck out to me. Each murder involved 3 children around the same age. The kids in both cases were girl scouts and boy/cub scouts. Both were murdered outside in nature. Last, Arkansas borders Oklahoma, so there's similar geography. Do you think anyone has ever compared the two cases? Can anyone compare the two cases to look for any other connections?

 

[Betty P]

Hi nikod,

Welcome to Websleuths! I haven't studied the West Memphis murders in a while. The person(s) who killed the Girl Scouts in Oklahoma left some DNA. Testing years later showed the killer had DNA with strong indication of coming from a Native American.

There hasn't been much recent analysis of the DNA gathered from the WM3 victims in a while, but perhaps someone should review it again. Either way, there was never any indication I've seen that the WM3 DNA came from someone with a Native American haplotype.

Just reading up on the WM3 case, they really should be doing some more DNA analysis on that case. It really needs to be resolved. JMO, I'm still not 100% convinced some of the suspects they convincted and released weren't actually guilty.

 

[nikod]

Hi Betty!

From my understanding, authorities just said that the hair "could come from a Native American", but that doesn't necessarily mean that's the actual case. I know they had a native suspect, so they could've been trying to fit the evidence to the suspect.

Either way, I think it would be interesting to put the cases side by side to see if there are any similarities to the cases.

 

[Betty P]

Hi Betty!

From my understanding, authorities just said that the hair "could come from a Native American", but that doesn't necessarily mean that's the actual case. I know they had a native suspect, so they could've been trying to fit the evidence to the suspect.

Either way, I think it would be interesting to put the cases side by side to see if there are any similarities to the cases.

Yes, there were later DNA tests that showed very close (though not 100% conclusive) mtDNA compatibility with the accused killer, Gene Leroy Hart, a full-fledged Native American.

www.websleuths.com/forumhttpss/threads/ok-girl-scout-murders-lori-farmer-8-michelle-guse-9-doris-milner-10-1977.5374/page-49#post-14541712

But, sure, it would be interesting to compare the two cases.

 

[jld321]

From what I understand about the dna analysis, there were 5 strands of dna to process, 3 could have come from Hart, but the other 2 could not be linked to him, so it's actually not helpful to connecting him. Plus there was other evidence that pointed away from him. Though some people speculate (much like in WM3) that there were 2 perpetrators. I also see some similarities in the cases. They were about 20 years apart, but if the killer(s) were in their 20s with the girl scout case, then their 40s in the WM3 case, that would be reasonable. Also there are a couple of major highways that connect the 2 areas. They are 5 to 6 hours apart, but along major thoroughfares. It seems to me unlikely that there would be 20 years without other murders in between unless they were in jail for an unrelated case during that time, or unless they had one off murders. I'd be really curious to see if other kids in that age range were murdered near those highways during the time in between.

 

[deathvalley69]

The Girl Scouts were killed in 1977; the West Memphis boys in 1993. The distance between the two cases: about 400 miles. Native American Gene Leroy Hart, the only person tried for the Camp Scott murders, was found not guilty.

 

[k_spence94]

Does anyone know if there have been any updates on the DNA that was supposed to be tested last year? So far, I have not seen anything when googling it, but I figured they'd be done by now.

 

[Gae]

Today is the 42nd anniversary. I so want justice for these three innocent little girls.

 

[pillywiggin]

Forty-two years--that is so hard to believe. This is one of the first crimes I remember hearing about. I was never allowed to go to summer camp because of this. I hope we eventually learn the entire truth.

 

[onthetrailofkillers]

i believe there is a tie to bikers. i believe that these bikers were possibly family to hart. They were in the area because the biker rallys in that area of the country.. check dates for rallys that started that year as well as the others that are still being held anually. A think the relatives of hart were passing through while following the different bike weeks in the US. The female is likely a cousin of harts from a different region of the US.. perhaps NC or GA. Cherokee Tribes of NC would be my guess. I also believe that she was a victim of incest throughout her life which produced a monster capable of taking part in the crime. I cant remember the forum like this one that i stumbled accross a suspicious user named sheila that stated she lived in the area and believed it was a boy that lived just outside the gate to the campground. She made comments about the shoe size that were odd and also asked what neighborhood did one of the victims live in... she believed that she knew the victim and lived lived near her. She would have remembered that fact for herself if she was the same age and living in the area during time this happened. I believe the man that she chatted with alot had a web page that told about Murders. Just read all the messages over the years and you will see that theres something fishy about her.. i believe she is involved and fishing for info from people in the area to find out if they have any leads as well as point the finger at others.. sheila is her name for sure.. one more thing.. why would someone steal glasses from somebody unless they knew that the person would not be able to identify them or see them and recognize them as a local.. They would need to have access and knowledge of the glasses. and the person that had them stolen should have been wearing them to see.. so how did they disappear. knowledge of couselors and layout were key... i might be reaching but check it out at least.. i really think this sheila is not who she portrays herself as in the forum.

 

[charleslennon]

Does anyone know if there have been any updates on the DNA that was supposed to be tested last year? So far, I have not seen anything when googling it, but I figured they'd be done by now.

As of late, no. But you should take note. The Mays County Sherrif's department has been suspiciously quiet regarding the test and its results. Why?
Well, I believe "they' did get a 'hit' this time. If so I can only assume they are combing every available DNA databases civilian [23andme, GEDmatch,ancestory.com, etc.], criminal [CODIS, NDIS, NCIDD], and state/federal for confirmation and or quantification. Think, "Golden State Killer" and how law enforcement caught him. It wasn't a direct mtDNA match to the killer but a relative's mtDNA that led to him, who turned out to be "one of their own".

 

[SAMS]

I will reiterate what a poster said earlier in the thread; were there any other murders & rapes of young girls in this area afterword or before? A perp like this doesn’t just stop nor does he normally target women vs girls. MOO

 

[Betty P]

I recently came across my copy of the book "Someone Cry for the Children". If anyone has a question or needs a look up, let me know.