OK OK - Jamison Family: Truck, IDs and Dog Found Abandoned 08 Oct 2009 - #12

[SchoolgirlShamus]

The jpg is a topographical map with the 2.7 mile range ring centered on the location of the truck, the campsite, the HRD clues as I interpret the coordinates (not guaranteed to be accurate), the possible trail to the campsite, and one of the search areas from the picture of a map found by OkieGranny.

Can you tell me in what way the HRD hit locations are marked? I don't see them on the map for some reason. Thanks!

 

[SchoolgirlShamus]

If the Jamisons were murdered by someone from outside the area, I think such a person, not being familiar with that network of dirt roads, would most likely leave the mountain the same way he came in, dumping his victims on the way out before heading back to Eufaula or Bristow or Oklahoma City or wherever he came from.

Does any of that make sense to anyone but me?

It makes a lot of sense. It will be extremely interesting to see the remains' exact location and their proximity to roads, dirt or otherwise.

Poring over your excellent timeline, OkieGranny, and reading some other posts in the past several days, I have adjusted my thinking somewhat.

Previously my guesses were:

80% - lost/exposure
15% - murdered
5% - murder/suicide

Now I'm inclined to think:

60% - lost/exposure
30% - murdered
10% - murder/suicide

 

[SchoolgirlShamus]

I find it against all odds that this family of 3 abandoned their truck halfway down Panola mountain, in the awkward way in which it was found.. Then intentionally and willingly exited their vehicle from that point..entered into the mountainous terrain/forest..became lost and traveled up the entire one half remaining side of the mountain to the very top..

and then the family of 3 once at the top..then scaled down the entire opposite mountainside.. all the way to the very bottom..

How do we know they did this? I thought someone mentioned a trail along the ridge that could be followed which was more level.

 

[TooCurious]

I've been in deep thought after mapping the Jamisons' likely route to the mountain and seeing that route running right along Smokestack Hollow. Not even thinking of motive or method at the moment, only the place. If that hollow turns out to be the location of the remains, then it's not very far from one of the main roads on and off the mountain. Why choose that particular place to leave three bodies? According to Oriah:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7564907&postcount=611.



It seems like it was just a matter of time before someone finally stumbled across the remains, if they were in that area. If the Jamisons' killer(s) didn't care about their bodies being found, then why not leave them at the truck? If the killer(s) didn't want the bodies to be found, why not choose a more remote spot to hide them? Could the location of the remains tell us something about who killed the Jamisons?

I think a lifelong native of the area would be likely to know that mountain very well. Well enough to know the dirt roads snaking up and down and all around it and the hidey-holes and hidden places where few people ever venture, having explored, hunted, and hiked all over that mountain throughout his youth, as youngsters will do, and on into adulthood. Such a person might know of secret places where three bodies could be stashed away and never be found, or at least he would have chosen a much more remote area, far away from anywhere people might be likely to go.

A more recent resident of the area, someone who moved there from somewhere else, probably would not know those secret places. He'd learn the major dirt roads well enough to navigate his way on and off the mountain, and over time learn some of the lesser roads crisscrossing the area, but he would not know the place as well as a lifelong resident. I think such a person would want to dump the bodies as far away from his own residence as possible to draw suspicion away from himself, but would not want to go too deep into unfamiliar territory and risk getting lost or being seen with a truck full of victims.

If the Jamisons were murdered by someone from outside the area, I think such a person, not being familiar with that network of dirt roads, would most likely leave the mountain the same way he came in, dumping his victims on the way out before heading back to Eufaula or Bristow or Oklahoma City or wherever he came from.

Does any of that make sense to anyone but me?

The description of Smokestack Hollow sounds like it is easily inundated with water. After 4" of rain I would have to think it would be partly underwater. The place I saw referenced here as the bodies were found is real close to a stream or something. This place would almost have to be inaccessible after the storm of the 8th/9th, for a time at least. For them to get there, they either walked it that afternoon/night or they were dumped there after everything dried up, became accessible. (After the search?)

 

[2Hope4]

NO idea why, but I keep thinking someone with a four wheeler offered to show them the property on the four wheeler, and then killed them, or left them in the woods and they weren't able to walk out.

 

[Mitch1]

Unfortunately that kind of thing happens all the time with missing people. Sometimes the searchers are very close to the remains but just not close enough (e.g., Chandra Levy).

The Websleuths user MTRTA Search Manager, on the Brandon Swanson board, had this to say:

"In Lost Person Behavior by Robert Koester, he describes that, in the vast majority of failed searches, Search Managers did not search beyond the median statistical distance. By definition, these searches have a 50:50 chance of failing."

I looked up the formula. Searching in just a 3 mile radius from the truck would mean searching 28.26 square miles. Searching in a 5 mile radius would be 78.5 square miles. You get the picture... a staggering proposition.

Maybe Im thinking of the wrong person, but I thought Chandra was found just 1 year later, after being murdered and dumped in a large park- Not found 4 years later after being lost in the woods and dying from exposure. I'm sorry to say these 2 situations aren't similar: Chandra-murdered, the Jamisons-in context of my statement you quoted, died of exposure. Chandra-murdered at the site or dumped, the Jamisons-in context of of my statement you quoted, had to have died there. Chandra-found after 1 yr, the Jamisons-in context of my statement you quoted-found after 4yrs.

I believe the Jamisons to be alive and well

 

[Mitch1]

I can't see someone/someones forcing/following 3 people (1 being a 6 yr old) on foot that far into the woods (even if the closest dirt road is a couple hundred yards away), when it's supposedly such ruff terrain-seems like that would be pretty risky and a pain in the arse, but adrenaline can be a mitigator here. Just don't see it though as they would have had to do it during the day (even riskier) of the 8th because that night it poured.

I can't see killing 3 people somewhere else and hauling 3 bodies out into those woods-those bodies would be pretty HEAVY and I would think a 4wheeler might not be able to overcome some of the obstacles of those woods and agreeing with Toocurious that since it had just rained, it would be even more of a challenge to get the bodies out there. I also would think bodies being hauled that far into the woods would have left a big scent trail for HRD dogs

If they were murdered and dumped there, I would think it would be much easier to wait until the bodies have skeletonized (takes maybe a couple of months) then use a 4wheeler to take them as far as you could and dump them. Hunting season would be over and the chances of someone stumbling across and finding them a lot less since bones don't stand out as much as fully clothed bodies.

LE said the remains that were found were pretty hard to get to

 

[TooCurious]

How close did the searchers actually get to the place where they were discovered?

 

[SmoothOperator]

SmoothOperator, thank's for breaking down the various scenarios and motives that someone(s) living on Panola mountain would have for taking such extreme measures to remove what certain residents would have felt was a serious enough threat to their interests, whatever those might be, that the person or persons responsible for the Jamison's murders felt justified in resorting to killing this family. I too believe there was a combination of motivating factors involved, and I agree with with the scenarios and theories you put forth. I had wondered if Sherrilyn was seen spray painting up there too, further angering certain residents who would have been motivated enough to permanently remove the threat the Jamison's represented to them.

If this is what happened to the Jamison's, I wonder what the other people living there think, or may have heard, and/or suspect themselves. I believe that the Jamison's were killed very shortly after being forced to abandon their truck, probably right where they were found. I also agree that KB didn't necessarily have to be involved, but think it interesting he was living not far from there when the Jamison's disappeared.

I can only hope that whatever happened to the Jamison's happened quickly. It's a very cold and heartless thing to murder anyone, but to murder a family which included a six year old little girl is just downright evil. It seems that whoever was responsible didn't want them found, at least not quickly, but didn't care enough to hide them in an even more remote location. I wonder if whoever is responsible fears getting caught since the remains have been found. Or do they think they are safe in the knowledge that they won't ever be held responsible?

I think this case is solvable. I hope that LE will take this case seriously, and whoever killed the Jamison's be held to answer for these murders.

Just to give some background on where I am possibly coming from with some of my theories on why/what happened to the Jamison family..

I, myself, 15 or so years ago would have had no earthly idea about what life was like in some(emphasis on some, and by far not all) very, very, very rural and small communities located in different parts of the country.. I have always grown up, and lived in total suburbia.. On the outskirts of a major city(Memphis).. And it wasn't until 15 or so years ago when I met my husband that I even knew that this type of community existed in rural America..

He is from a smallish town, but his father after divorcing from his mom moved into the much smaller, much, much more rural and mountainous areas outside of "town".. It was from and through his father and his experiences that he endured and lived through, that I learned about the existence of such rural, extremely tight knit communities..

I know that for me, personally it just seems quite literally absurd and not even believable that a family could be murdered for such an insane reason as the people of the very rural community that they were planning to move to..that certain people not wanting the family to live there would be good enough cause to take out/murder an entire family of 3(most importantly a 6yo innocent child).. And while I do still find it absurd, unfathomable.. I do however, unfortunately also know for a fact that it does happen.. And it does happen for such reasons as I've detailed in some of my theories..

As stark raving crazy as it may sound or seem.. The truth is there are people within some very, very, very rural areas of the country who are very much willing to kill whoever necessary in order to protect their way of living..and there are always differing reasons and motivators for each of these people who are of this type mindset, and believe it to be within "their rights" to protect their way of life at all costs from anyone they perceive as threatening and/or even just as outsiders.. What I mean by within "their rights" is that some, not all, but some of these type rural communities almost have a whole other "system" by which they live..

I don't know..it really is hard to put into words what I know by having seen it first hand.. There are people willing to go to any lengths necessary to keep their way of life..yes, even murdering a family.. I learned that early on, when my husband and his father put their blood, sweat, and tears into building his beautiful "cabin in the woods" in one of the "hollers" in a community of people with this exact type, sick mindset..These sick people set that beautiful home on fire, and not just on fire, but literally an engulfing of flames so quickly, and so thoroughly that it was to the ground, no longer existing, within a very short period of time..MOST IMPORTANTLY IT WAS SET ON FIRE WITH THE ENTIRE FAMILY INSIDE. MEN, WOMEN, ADULT CHILDREN, ALONG WITH GRANDCHILDREN, AND EVEN BABIES!

I've seen it happen.. I know this mindset, mentality, and way of life very much do exist in some very rural areas of the country(just as loon-toon mindsets exist in urban/suburban areas of the country as well)..and as crazy and unbelievable as it may seem, it very much does exist and people(yes, even entire families) have been killed for quite literally no good reason at all.. Just because of the way they were perceived by members of these type communities.

 

[HauntsForHope]

I do find it interesting that they spoke with a local resident and gave him the gps coordinates where they would be the next morning.... i wonder who he talked to that night.

 

[OkieGranny]

Smooth, I see your point and it is a possibility. Until we have more answers, just about anything is still a possibility.

On another case I follow in Love County in southern Oklahoma, someone mentioned "Winter's Bone" and I was like, exactly! I'm from rural northeastern Oklahoma and when I read that book, long before seeing the movie, it felt like I knew those people and those places. There are areas that are very clannish, where people keep to themselves and don't welcome outsiders and especially not the law. A stranger driving down the wrong road can definitely get himself in a heap of trouble there.

We know from the neighbor DC's statement that Bobby basically told him his life story, about their house on the lake, the settlement, his parents divorce, the gas station deal gone bad, and possibly Madyson's attention deficit issue (that particular sentence continued on the next page, which we were unable to see). He was an open book, is what I'm saying.

We know the Jamisons also talked to PC, the lady on the mountain, quite a bit but we don't know of any other local residents they may have spoken to. I do wonder if Bobby was that chatty with everyone he met.

If the locals had learned somehow that the Jamisons might not be ideal neighbors and did not want them moving there, murdering three people, one of them a 6-year-old little girl, seems like a drastic solution to a problem that might not even be a problem. The Jamisons were only looking at the land. That 40-acre parcel at the well site was one of many properties they had been considering. They had not signed any papers or put any money down, as far as we know. Moving up to that mountain was not a certainty yet.

A local who was simply clannish and didn't want the Jamisons moving up there seems more likely to try threatening behavior to scare them off from buying that land. If this was the motive for killing the Jamison family, I think it would have to be someone who was psychotic or totally tweaked on meth who would see murder as the one and only solution.

 

[OkieGranny]

I do find it interesting that they spoke with a local resident and gave him the gps coordinates where they would be the next morning.... i wonder who he talked to that night.

So do I.

 

[Solitaryone]

SmoothOperator, thank's for sharing. I hope everyone in your FIL's cabin escaped unharmed. I've heard of these things happening, but thankfully, I've never had to go through anything as extreme as that!

I wonder if anyone was with DC while the Jamison's were there, or if DC told anyone what Bobby Jamison had told him. I also wonder if the Jamison's talked with anyone else besides DC? I know they called PC, but they never met up with her. I wonder who else living there or near there was told about what the Jamison's said, such as their plans? I can't remember which day DC says he talked with them. Was it the first time they went up the mountain?

 

[salgtrn]

I lived in the Tahlequah area for a while and was a home health nurse. I went from anywhere in a 75 mile radius. 90% of my clients were in the sticks. I had to buy very expensive tires because I was repeatedly getting flats due to the rocky, rough roads. Some places were truly scary! Many were difficult to find and some of the places I saw just to get to those places were scary. 7 foot tall privacy fences around the entire property, not just the yard. Lots of others had 6 ft. chain link fences around there property. I got stared at a lot when I drove by places and it wasn't in a friendly manner. At one of the houses I went to on a regular basis, there would be like 6 or 7 grown men all hanging around in the yard doing nothing but keeping their eye on me while I got supplies out of my car and took care of the elderly couple inside. I went to that house twice a week and they were always there doing the same thing. It was really creepy sometimes, even though I was asked to be there. Later I met a guy in another state that was a former meth dealer and would go buy his stuff at a place in Tahlequah that sounded eerily similar. Said he would pull up and they would let him in the gate. He would be met by people with guns. He described several people with guns everywhere. Said it freaked him out and he was scared ****less every time he went there. Actually this place wasn't in the boonies though it was on a main highway! I could say more about that but I won't. And do you know why? Fear. The same reason I think there are so many details that are unsaid in this family's disappearance. I wonder sometimes how much NS or the moms really know that they have not disclosed due to "fear."

Just to give some background on where I am possibly coming from with some of my theories on why/what happened to the Jamison family..

I, myself, 15 or so years ago would have had no earthly idea about what life was like in some(emphasis on some, and by far not all) very, very, very rural and small communities located in different parts of the country.. I have always grown up, and lived in total suburbia.. On the outskirts of a major city(Memphis).. And it wasn't until 15 or so years ago when I met my husband that I even knew that this type of community existed in rural America..

He is from a smallish town, but his father after divorcing from his mom moved into the much smaller, much, much more rural and mountainous areas outside of "town".. It was from and through his father and his experiences that he endured and lived through, that I learned about the existence of such rural, extremely tight knit communities..

I know that for me, personally it just seems quite literally absurd and not even believable that a family could be murdered for such an insane reason as the people of the very rural community that they were planning to move to..that certain people not wanting the family to live there would be good enough cause to take out/murder an entire family of 3(most importantly a 6yo innocent child).. And while I do still find it absurd, unfathomable.. I do however, unfortunately also know for a fact that it does happen.. And it does happen for such reasons as I've detailed in some of my theories..

As stark raving crazy as it may sound or seem.. The truth is there are people within some very, very, very rural areas of the country who are very much willing to kill whoever necessary in order to protect their way of living..and there are always differing reasons and motivators for each of these people who are of this type mindset, and believe it to be within "their rights" to protect their way of life at all costs from anyone they perceive as threatening and/or even just as outsiders.. What I mean by within "their rights" is that some, not all, but some of these type rural communities almost have a whole other "system" by which they live..

I don't know..it really is hard to put into words what I know by having seen it first hand.. There are people willing to go to any lengths necessary to keep their way of life..yes, even murdering a family.. I learned that early on, when my husband and his father put their blood, sweat, and tears into building his beautiful "cabin in the woods" in one of the "hollers" in a community of people with this exact type, sick mindset..These sick people set that beautiful home on fire, and not just on fire, but literally an engulfing of flames so quickly, and so thoroughly that it was to the ground, no longer existing, within a very short period of time..MOST IMPORTANTLY IT WAS SET ON FIRE WITH THE ENTIRE FAMILY INSIDE. MEN, WOMEN, ADULT CHILDREN, ALONG WITH GRANDCHILDREN, AND EVEN BABIES!

I've seen it happen.. I know this mindset, mentality, and way of life very much do exist in some very rural areas of the country(just as loon-toon mindsets exist in urban/suburban areas of the country as well)..and as crazy and unbelievable as it may seem, it very much does exist and people(yes, even entire families) have been killed for quite literally no good reason at all.. Just because of the way they were perceived by members of these type communities.

 

[OkieGranny]

I just went back and looked at mtrooper's original posts in which she first gave us an idea of the location of the remains:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9990823&postcount=125.

So this is what I have come up with for GPS coords for the location of the bodies. Should be within a mile. It is section 28-T 7N-20E. It is the top portion of Grassy Lake Hollow. Latitude: 35.0509313 North Longitude: -95.1980223 West

And then:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9993105&postcount=220.

I had posted last night that it was near Grassy Lake Hollow...That was not correct, sorry. They were found in Smokestack Hollow. My original understanding was that they were found more north than west, which is why I thought Grassy Lake, I now know that it was more NW and it is Smokestack Hollow. The details are still barely at a trickle.

The geography is described here:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9984387&postcount=912.

The Jamisons went missing on one side of the mountain and were found at the bottom of the other side.

Okay, if you go here:

http://www.geocommunicator.gov/blmMap/Map.jsp

and keep clicking on the general location until you zoom in to Panola Mountain, then click the Topo button at the bottom of the screen, you'll see the pink grid marking off sections, which are numbered, and you'll also see the township and range numbers.

We do know for certain that the well site is in Section 9, Township 6 North, Range 20 East. If we look at Section 28 in Township 7 North, Range 20 East, it's the third square directly north of the well site and that is Grassy Lake Hollow. But what mtrooper also said is that the location should be within a mile, not that the coordinates she gave would be the exact spot.

If we mark an arc to the northwest 2.7 aerial miles from the truck, and mark a line approximately one mile out from the boundary of Section 28, it looks something like this:

To me, it seems like a very good possibility that the remains were found within the intersecting area, in the vicinity of the three northernmost pink markers. The geography ("at the bottom of the other side") fits, so I'll just go with the one in the middle and say that's my best guess. I'm marking that area on my map and sticking with it, just for reference purposes, until the actual location is revealed.

 

[Mapman]

Can you tell me in what way the HRD hit locations are marked? I don't see them on the map for some reason. Thanks!

The HRD clues are grouped tightly together at a point a little less than half way from the truck to the red ring at about a 1 or 2 O'clock direction. They almost look like one point unless you zoom in, and they are yellow flags labeled C7, C8, and so forth. These points are outside of the more concentrated search areas that we know of. If you want to take a close look, you should probably use google earth.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped.

I'm not sure where the northern boundary of Smokestack Hollow is, but there is a no-bridge crossing up there near the county line. There are bridgeless crossings all over that mountain. Was their truck a 4-wheel drive?

What I was thinking about was, if they were followed, or the presumed perp dropped the bodies there he would need a four wheel drive.

 

[SmoothOperator]

:truce:I lived in the Tahlequah area for a while and was a home health nurse. I went from anywhere in a 75 mile radius. 90% of my clients were in the sticks. I had to buy very expensive tires because I was repeatedly getting flats due to the rocky, rough roads. Some places were truly scary! Many were difficult to find and some of the places I saw just to get to those places were scary. 7 foot tall privacy fences around the entire property, not just the yard. Lots of others had 6 ft. chain link fences around there property. I got stared at a lot when I drove by places and it wasn't in a friendly manner. At one of the houses I went to on a regular basis, there would be like 6 or 7 grown men all hanging around in the yard doing nothing but keeping their eye on me while I got supplies out of my car and took care of the elderly couple inside. I went to that house twice a week and they were always there doing the same thing. It was really creepy sometimes, even though I was asked to be there. Later I met a guy in another state that was a former meth dealer and would go buy his stuff at a place in Tahlequah that sounded eerily similar. Said he would pull up and they would let him in the gate. He would be met by people with guns. He described several people with guns everywhere. Said it freaked him out and he was scared ****less every time he went there. Actually this place wasn't in the boonies though it was on a main highway!

I could say more about that but I won't. And do you know why? Fear. The same reason I think there are so many details that are unsaid in this family's disappearance. I wonder sometimes how much NS or the moms really know that they have not disclosed due to "fear."

Above BBM.. Ding! Ding! Ding! You are absolutely correct, IMO!

Tho, as OkieGranny said, with what we KNOW FOR A FACT about this case, just about every possibility is still on the table.. So, while I am fully understanding that it may not be someone living on/having direct ties to the community of Panola Mountain.. I also am fully understanding that there is a very good chance that those responsible for this family's death are very much a part of the community of Panola mountain.. IMO one of the main indicators being that whoever it was that stopped/blocked this family on that one lane mountain road, IMO was no stranger to Panola mountain..

But nonetheless with what little is known as FACT we just don't know the who/what/why this family was killed, yet.. And I pray that it does NOT remain this way, with little known facts, and never able to receive justice for what this family was robbed of...their lives..and especially the life of a six year old, innocent, little girl who had her whole entire life left to live!

I am atleast grateful that this family's remains were able to have been located..and with that, atleast comes some degree of closure for their loved ones.. Because in a case that I find to have similar dynamics(rural, tight knit community, with people able to strike such FEAR in others, that the community as a whole remains absolutely silent about anything at all regarding such type crimes as murder)..similar dynamics to this case is, IMO, "The Springfield Three"..Stacy, Suzy, Sherrill..whose lives were stolen from them in 1992.. These three women have never been found..

And FEAR is absolutely what has allowed their bodies to have NEVER been recovered..FEAR is what has allowed those responsible for their deaths to walk free, unscathed, and without consequence..and it absolutely is FEAR that has kept all of the loved ones of these three women from ever receiving even an ounce of closure, nor ever having received any form of justice whatsoever for what was done to their loved ones, Stacy, Suzy, and Sherrill!!!

IMO, you better believe FEAR is a very, very powerful thing!.. And IMO, I strongly believe that there is FEAR at the heart of certain issues surrounding the Jamison's murders..FEAR so powerful that it could negatively impact this family ever receiving justice for what was taken from them..their lives..

IMO it is FEAR that has severely, negatively impacted "The Springfield Three" case.. And I can only pray that the Jamison's bodies having been located is the crack that is needed to break this case wide open, and bring all that which is dark to the light of day..and all those in any way involved in these murders to face the consequences they so deserve for taking an innocent, six year old, little, bitty girl's entire life away from her..and her away from the many who love her, and want justice served for what was done to her..

Don't allow FEAR to keep justice from prevailing, most of all, for Madyson Jamison!

Of course, as always, jmo, tho!

 

[OkieGranny]

What I was thinking about was, if they were followed, or the presumed perp dropped the bodies there he would need a four wheel drive.

Oh, yeah, the perp(s) would likely need a four-wheel-drive. But such vehicles are very common in Oklahoma, even in the city. Kind of a macho thing, I guess, to drive a big ol' honkin' truck like that. It wouldn't be that hard to get hold of one, if one wasn't already on hand.

 

[Snoopster]

I'm still popping in here from time to time, but can't totally keep up, so thank you yet again to the crew that keep analyzing and discussing this case!