OK OK - Lauria Bible, 16, & Ashley Freeman, 16, Welch, 30 December 1999 *ARREST*

[RubyRed]

Bumping for Ashley and Lauria....

I can't find any CPS or family services records earlier than 2002, but there is rumor (per their peers in school at the time) that there was a case opened the same year Shane was killed alleging sexual abuse of Ashley by her father, but was deemed inconclusive of evidence and so dropped.

If this is true, how much merit do people think it holds in relation to this crime?

That could give a motive to Ashley for those that think the girls are involved.

I think the girls met with foul play. Were taken to another location and assaulted then murdered. If the perp had no intention of sexually assaulting them the perp would have just killed them at the trailer. The perp was worried about getting caught so took off with them. moo

 

[Oriah]

That could give a motive to Ashley for those that think the girls are involved.

I think the girls met with foul play. Were taken to another location and assaulted then murdered. If the perp had no intention of sexually assaulting them the perp would have just killed them at the trailer. The perp was worried about getting caught so took off with them. moo

I think so too and I don't think they were involved, but it would be good to know what was going on prior to their disappearance. Even if it's just where they might have been prior to them go missing.

 

[Fairy1]

Bumping for Ashley and Lauria....

I can't find any CPS or family services records earlier than 2002, but there is rumor (per their peers in school at the time) that there was a case opened the same year Shane was killed alleging sexual abuse of Ashley by her father, but was deemed inconclusive of evidence and so dropped.

If this is true, how much merit do people think it holds in relation to this crime?

It's yet another interesting twist, IMO. Has me to thinking, there is more than one killer. I find it hard to believe one person could have killed the victims, burned the home down and abducted both girls single-handedly.

That hadn't really crossed my mind before....

What do ya'll think?

 

[Oriah]

It's yet another interesting twist, IMO. Has me to thinking, there is more than one killer. I find it hard to believe one person could have killed the victims, burned the home down and abducted both girls single-handedly.

That hadn't really crossed my mind before....

What do ya'll think?

Yeah. I'm no profiler at all but the scenario that comes to my mind is:

A male and female, or two males, committed this crime. A home invasion essentially, but for reasons or motives unknown.
The first person murdered Kathy and Danny somewhat swiftly in a struggle, while the other restrained Ashley and Lauria (by threat of weapon and then manually perhaps?) The 1st person robbed the home and placed accelerant around (why in the kitchen?) while other person remained with Ashley and Lauria. Both people then moving Ashley and Lauria to their vehicle, lit accelerant- and drove away. And subsequently murdered Ashley and Lauria at a location within a couple hours drive of the home, then dumped them several miles of that location.

The thing that really makes me scratch my head....and I think is key to the location of Ashley and Lauria...is why this particular home, on this particular night? If these people knew the Freemans and Lauria, would they have gone to a familiar place after killing Danny and Kathy? If they did not...then where would they have headed??

 

[Fairy1]

Yeah. I'm no profiler at all but the scenario that comes to my mind is:

A male and female, or two males, committed this crime. A home invasion essentially, but for reasons or motives unknown.
The first person murdered Kathy and Danny somewhat swiftly in a struggle, while the other restrained Ashley and Lauria (by threat of weapon and then manually perhaps?) The 1st person robbed the home and placed accelerant around (why in the kitchen?) while other person remained with Ashley and Lauria. Both people then moving Ashley and Lauria to their vehicle, lit accelerant- and drove away. And subsequently murdered Ashley and Lauria at a location within a couple hours drive of the home, then dumped them several miles of that location.

The thing that really makes me scratch my head....and I think is key to the location of Ashley and Lauria...is why this particular home, on this particular night? If these people knew the Freemans and Lauria, would they have gone to a familiar place after killing Danny and Kathy? If they did not...then where would they have headed??

I really wonder if the killer(s) followed the girls in from town.

But then, how could they know about the arrowheads? Or that there was anything in the home worth stealing?

Were the girls the target all along?

I have to admit, the "more than one perp" has me leaning toward the LE theory.

 

[Oriah]

I really wonder if the killer(s) followed the girls in from town.

But then, how could they know about the arrowheads? Or that there was anything in the home worth stealing?

Were the girls the target all along?

I have to admit, the "more than one perp" has me leaning toward the LE theory.

The thought of the killers following them in from town... I wonder if there was surveillance video at the Walmart or elsewhere in town, like the Pizza Hut. It likely wouldn't exist any more, but I wonder if LE pulled it at the time. It would have cleared up the question of where they ate. And maybe picked up anything or anyone who might have interacted with them, or left at the same time etc.
Wonder if the DOT keeps footage that long. Hmm.

 

[UKgirl]

Hi I am totally new to this forum, but have been lurking for a while.

I must admit this case now has me hooked.

I think oriah has a point about the surviellance cameras. It would be useful to see if they had any follwers on that night.

 

[Oriah]

Hi I am totally new to this forum, but have been lurking for a while.

I must admit this case now has me hooked.

I think oriah has a point about the surviellance cameras. It would be useful to see if they had any follwers on that night.

Hi and welcome and thank you for taking an interest in this case!

There are a couple routes that they might have taken that have/had traffic cams on them at the time.
http://oktraffic.org/map.php?location=statewide

How can I find out if that info was pulled during the investigation though?? Need help here.....

 

[Oriah]

Bumping for our girls here....

I can't find anything where LE even looked for surveillance video at the time. So I guess that's useless.
DOT has tapes, but they have them sporadically in all years.
So scratch that thought....

 

[docwho3]

I have been trying to find time to go back & read the case through from the beginning
& then all the posts that follow after. So far I have not yet finished reading all the posts
but I have noticed a couple of things that seem interesting:

1. I have not heard of any evidence that would indicate a suspect
vehicle of any kind was at the home.
2. I have not seen a google earth overhead view of the house &
surrounding area but the location sounds sort of as if it was away from
other homes, at least far enough away that people being murdered did not prompt any
calls to LE from curious neighbors wanting to know what all the fuss was about.
3. There seems to have been only about 3 types of things missing from
the crime scene so far as I have been able to glean from the posts read
so far (the girls, possibly some money, arrowheads.)


Thoughts: Although one usually thinks of the girls in such cases as probably having been
murdered and dumped somewhere this almost sounds a little like a much more violent
version of what happened to Elizabeth Smart. I also remember a few years ago there
was another case on websleuths about a family that was murdered in their home
because the murderer wanted the young boy and the young girl for use as his torture
playthings. He did kill the boy but the little girl survived until much later when the perp
was caught & the girl was rescued by L.E. In both those cases the perp spent lots
of time camping/living outdoors to have more privacy with their victims.

Since the girls are missing I would suppose that the perp(s) wanted to spend much more
time with them than just the one night permitted them if they stayed in the home
crime scene.

My question would be 'just how much more time?' only a day or so . . . . .or perhaps
much longer. Could they still be held somewhere even after all this time? I remember that
the Duggard(sp?) girl was found alive having been held captive for years & had daughters
by her abducter so I suppose it is at least possible these two from this case might be
alive as unlikely as it might seem. Perhaps possible, but without more evidence I can't
move it into the probable category.

Even if they were held somewhere only a few more hours where would that have been
possible? Are there outdoor places nearby with enough privacy for camping a
few hours to do bad stuff?

So far I tend to discount both LE being involved & also the other case the docudrama(?)
was about. This post is already too long to go into detail as to why but for now let me
just say those possibilities don't fit with the experience of all the other cases I have read on
websleuths & elsewhere over the years.

I do not know if the perp(s) were on foot or if they had a vehicle that no one seems to have
seen and maybe the tracks were missed. It is certainly possible to have been either
possibility from the little facts reported.

I wonder if there were any minor thefts from yards or porches in that area around the
time of the crime. Or did anyone stop at other homes and say their car was breaking down
or running out of gas etc.

 

[Oriah]

Thanks for coming to this case, docwho3 and thank you for your thoughts! What are your thoughts on:

A 'suspect' vehicle- as opposed to other vehicles? I don't think there's any confirmation of the vehicle traffic at the time because of emergency responding vehicles.

You can google earth the location of the trailer, but it is no longer there (the trailer itself) so you can pull up the coordinates of the trailer location on that date in 1999 and get a good idea of it's location. I agree- neighbors might not have heard a thing. Except, if you look at the terrain and the temp...maybe they could have. Sound travels quite some distance.

Items missing from the scene of this crime... I think Lauria and Ashley, most important.

Please add thoughts as you have them! I also wonder about crimes in the area at that time.

 

[docwho3]

Thanks for coming to this case, docwho3 and thank you for your thoughts!. . .

Thank you for the kind welcome.

. . .What are your thoughts on:. . .

. . .A 'suspect' vehicle- as opposed to other vehicles? I don't think there's any confirmation of the vehicle traffic at the time because of emergency responding vehicles. . .

Forgive me if I state things you already know but to explain myself I need to
start simple and progress from there.

To commit a crime a perp must get to the scene somehow. Usually this is by vehicle of
some sort but there have been cases when a perp(s) arrived on foot & even left
on foot in a few cases.

Since there seems to be so little other evidence reported I thought it might be helpful
to begin thinking about how the perp(s) arrived and how he/they left the scene. If a perp is
completely on foot in a more rural area then one might look for some neighbor or
some homeless type or some survivalist type(s) and once that determination
is made you can begin looking in certain types of places and asking certain types of questions.

On the other hand, if the perp arrived in a vehicle there might be tire tracks in the
dirt or people in the area might have noticed a vehicle being driven up and down the road
as if looking for something. . . .or perhaps the perp was looking for a home that was out
away from any close neighbors where he/they might drive up and use some excuse to
gain entry to the home and then pillage and so forth. The home where the crime happened
might not have been the first stop. Perhaps another home or homes might have
been approached. If someone else was home at one of the other residences & refused
the perp entry to the home that person might be able to provide helpful info. If no one
was home at another residence that was tried then perhaps the perp got out of the vehicle
and stole something from the porch or yard etc.

So, to recap, I noted that so far I have not seen any mention of LE having any
vehicle type or description of any kind that they are looking for in relation to this crime
and that makes me wonder if the perp might have been on foot as I explained above.
So I have 2 sets of questions that can lead in different directions.

I mentioned not having seen the google earth images of the area because I wondered
if where the home was located was sort of rural & might lend itself to being approached
on foot and also if it was perhaps likely to be targeted for crime due to its remote location
whether or not a vehicle was used.

. . . I agree- neighbors might not have heard a thing. Except, if you look at the terrain and the temp...maybe they could have. Sound travels quite some distance. . . .

The mere absence of any mention of neighbors having heard anything made me
wonder if the trailer was situated in a rural type of location or at least quite some distance
from the nearest neighbor. I was also wondering if location played a part in that home
being chosen for the crimes that were committed.

. . .Items missing from the scene of this crime... I think Lauria and Ashley, most important. . . .

I agree but what was and what was not taken is interesting and might give some
insight into the thinking of the perp(s). In the 2 cases I mentioned in the previous post
the children taken were the main reason the perp came to the home and were the main
thing he/they left with.

If I read posts correctly this home had several guns and yet many guns were found
left behind at the scene and guns are supposed to be fairly easy to sell on the street
so I wonder if robbery/burglary was or was not the main motive for the crime.
If burglary/robbery was the motive then why leave guns behind? Why not take more away
from the scene than what was taken?

. . .Please add thoughts as you have them! . . .

Thank you for the kind invitation.

 

[docwho3]

I finally got the posts read and did some simple web research on the case as well.
Some of the articles and posts I found online helped fill in some of the blanks for me.

I found that at one time there was a 'suspect vehicle' tip turned in to LE but it allegedly
did not check out. I suppose that happens in many such cases but I wonder if some
of those old tips & other info should perhaps be looked into again with fresh eyes.

The purse that was recovered has been reported to have contained as little as $40 to
as much as nearly the full $200 that the girl was alleged to have started out with.

It was reported that an OSBI spokeswoman said that the home was so remote that
a perp would not likely arrive by accident at the home. To me that would indicate either
prior knowledge of the home or that the perp followed the women home from town.

From the way certain websites on missing cases keep mentioning the address of
the businesses the girls went to that night I suspect LE must also believe the girls
were followed home & are hoping someone might remember seeing others who might
have been in those places at the same time the girls were there.

I can't rule out the 2 girls being involved in the crime but I see nothing yet to indicate
they were involved and if they had been involved they would have had to walked out
of the area on foot or have had help by someone with a vehicle since all the family cars
were accounted for.

Allegedly there was a 'little used highway' nearby so I suppose walking out and hitching a ride
might be possible but pretty chancy if it was truly 'little used'. I have no indication that
they would have had outside help in escaping after committing such a crime. Sexual abuse
of some sort was hinted at by a couple of articles as a possible motive for the girls
committing the crime but if they had needed help escaping I would have thought they
would have turned to the boyfriend & allegedly he has been cleared.

There evidently were serial killers passing in close proximity to the town during the approx.
time the crime happened but nothing has yet been proven concerning any of those
who have 'confessed'.

I have read of some damage to the bodies of the victims that to me seems a bit
telling in some ways. I think this case could well benefit from a really good
experienced profiler.

I am still mulling over all that I have learned so, as yet, I have no clear cut theory.

 

[Oriah]

Hi docwho3,

First of all, thank you for your detailed posts, and also for taking an interest in Lauria and Ashley. And I wanted to note this part of your post specifically because I feel it to be so accurate:

<From the way certain websites on missing cases keep mentioning the address of
the businesses the girls went to that night I suspect LE must also believe the girls
were followed home & are hoping someone might remember seeing others who might
have been in those places at the same time the girls were there.>

That was why I had the thought about surveillance cameras in town and from the DOT. I was also thinking about the surveillance cameras- that most LE and emergency responders have in their vehicles. Sometime, courts will review them (and then have them in evidence for long periods of time) or PD's will, if there is obvious evidence of a crime at the time- which there clearly was.

Off to look THAT one up!

 

[wfgodot]

Hi docwho3,

First of all, thank you for your detailed posts, and also for taking an interest in Lauria and Ashley. And I wanted to note this part of your post specifically because I feel it to be so accurate:

<From the way certain websites on missing cases keep mentioning the address of
the businesses the girls went to that night I suspect LE must also believe the girls
were followed home & are hoping someone might remember seeing others who might
have been in those places at the same time the girls were there.>

That was why I had the thought about surveillance cameras in town and from the DOT. I was also thinking about the surveillance cameras- that most LE and emergency responders have in their vehicles. Sometime, courts will review them (and then have them in evidence for long periods of time) or PD's will, if there is obvious evidence of a crime at the time- which there clearly was.

Off to look THAT one up!

Back in 1999, I'm fairly sure that cctv surveillance was minimal in the Vinita - Welch area. Most WalMarts in small towns didn't even have parking lot video, etc., back then, though probably in-store was present. And LE lacked in-vehicle video. We were still in Bumpkinville. (Now we're in the suburbs of Yokel Heights.)

Let's see...what else. The trailer was in an extremely rural area, to answer another query above, and neighbors weren't thick on the ground. The perps didn't walk to the crime scene.

Missing from the trailer: a collection of (possibly quite valuable) arrowheads (and possibly other Native American artifacts), kept in glass display cases; according to LE, no trace of the collection was found at the scene. LE, ever helpful, opined that it had all cooked down to nothing in the set blaze, which does not seem "right" to me.

 

[Oriah]

Back in 1999, I'm fairly sure that cctv surveillance was minimal in the Vinita - Welch area. Most WalMarts in small towns didn't even have parking lot video, etc., back then, though probably in-store was present. And LE lacked in-vehicle video. We were still in Bumpkinville. (Now we're in the suburbs of Yokel Heights.)

Let's see...what else. The trailer was in an extremely rural area, to answer another query above, and neighbors weren't thick on the ground. The perps didn't walk to the crime scene.

Missing from the trailer: a collection of (possibly quite valuable) arrowheads (and possibly other Native American artifacts), kept in glass display cases; according to LE, no trace of the collection was found at the scene. LE, ever helpful, opined that it had all cooked down to nothing in the set blaze, which does not seem "right" to me.

It didn't cook down to nothing, that's for sure- at least not if the definition of 'nothing' is the same as my dictionary.
Remains were there.

And now that you mention THAT about the missing artifacts etc and why there were other items of value left at the scene despite the missing artifacts.... does anyone happen to know where in evidence those items might be, or were they released?
Would appreciate any media source or link to that.

 

[wfgodot]

It didn't cook down to nothing, that's for sure- at least not if the definition of 'nothing' is the same as my dictionary.
Remains were there.

And now that you mention THAT about the missing artifacts etc and why there were other items of value left at the scene despite the missing artifacts.... does anyone happen to know where in evidence those items might be, or were they released?
Would appreciate any media source or link to that.

All signs point to the "it was not a robbery" scenario (unless the vanished NA artifacts themselves were the goal of the thievery); therefore, it was probably either revenge (dope dealers? LE??), or a sex crime - planned or unplanned.

Whatever the case may have been, Lauria and Ashley were victims, not conspirators. These were good kids, though A. apparently had issues with her stepfather.

(Am now lookin' for sources/links)

 

[Oriah]

All signs point to the "it was not a robbery" scenario (unless the vanished NA artifacts themselves were the goal of the thievery); therefore, it was probably either revenge (dope dealers? LE??), or a sex crime - planned or unplanned.

Whatever the case may have been, Lauria and Ashley were victims, not conspirators. These were good kids, though A. apparently had issues with her stepfather.
(Am now lookin' for sources/links)

Yep, I agree. The vanished artifacts thing/robbery/no robbery? Still a tad confused about, lol.

And then for me there's the....where are they???

I would actually love to hear an FBI profilers thought on this.

 

[docwho3]

I hope it is ok if I add some general notes that are not response to
any one person but just seemed to be things helpful for us all.

Note 1: I have not at this point provided source links although I have saved many of the
links in a text file. One reason I have not posted source is that some of the links were
from other messageboards that quoted online news articles (sometimes the entire
news article) whose source links are now obsolete (broken) & because websleuths has
rules about not posting links to other messageboards as source I just posted in the
manner I did.

Note 2: I did read that there were 'tons of guns' at the home that were left behind and that the
one purse with cash in it was left behind. Those 2 things, of themselves, are enough to
make me tend to rule out robbery as the main motive for the perps being there. Even if
you do not find what you expected to find at a home when you go to rob or burgle it I
would not expect one to turn down cash or guns without a compelling reason to do so.

Note 3: Allegedly one of the missing girls was not used to carrying a purse and had only
recently been given a large one because she kept leaving behind her ID and other important
cards & papers. If it was her purse that was found then it might not be out of character
for her to have left it behind. Not sure what that tells us but thought it worth mentioning.
(Although putting this together with note 8 might make sense in a way.)


Note 4: I suspect that the fact that one girl had just turned 16 and was celebrating that
fact will somehow turn out to have played a part in triggering or making possible
what happened.

Note 5: Allegedly LE claims no phone calls were made from the home that night and yet
at least one person allegedly received a call from the home. Perhaps the phone records
are incomplete or perhaps someone misremembered what happened but it is one more
interesting thing I noted.

Note 6: One quote I read mentioned that the serial killers that had confessed to
the crime were not high on the 'list of suspects'. That implies that there is a list of suspects
and that makes me wonder just who is at the top of that list.

Note 7: Cell phone coverage was allegedly spotty at best. One of the news
articles I watched or read said something about having to move quite a ways
off from the scene to be able to get coverage to make an outgoing cell phone call when
the body of Danny was found. I mention this because it indicates that this might not
have been a spur of the moment crime by the girls. If they had been molested and
just lashed out in unplanned reaction they would have needed to be able to make contact
with someone to come get them and take them away. If no calls were made from the
home and cell phones were nearly unusable that does not seem possible.
And why have someone take them away anyway when thay had easy access to cars
that could later be ditched anywhere? This seems like more planning than 2 recently
molested girls would be capable of if they had just been through a traumatic
& violent unplanned confrontation.
Also if the girls had a cell phone (something I do not know) I would think that, armed with
the number, LE could get the outgoing call records for that night & we would have read something
about it by now.
Without being able to phone out it would seem to mean that the girls would have
had to have planned ahead to have transportation
from the scene. At this point I just don't see anything to indicate that the girls would
have been planning such a thing. No one has mentioned anything in their demeanor earlier
that night that seemed strained or out of character in any way & this, as much as
anything at this point, makes me doubt the girls are anything other than victims. It isn't
enough to conclusively rule them out but it explains more logically why I am thinking
along the lines I am at this time.

Note 8: One or more articles I read indicated that it is believed the attack on the home
happened around midnight and yet other articles mentioned a time of death of about 5 am
for Kathy so I wonder what makes them think things began so much earlier? And what
makes them think someone left and then later returned to set the house ablaze? Why not just
set the home ablaze as you leave? . . .unless one was getting the girls to be more
cooperative in leaving with the perp(s) by promising the parents would not be killed. This comes
to mind when I note that the tip about the vehicle sighting of the 2 girls with a man
in a truck. At the time it was thought the man was Danny-because his body had
not yet been found but now I wonder if that lead and any like it should be looked at again
more closely.

This is one possible theory (but not the only one) that might fit with what little
I have read so far:
So far I am thinking it is possible that someone had overheard the girls speaking of
turning 16 and had either followed them home at some previous time or been told
how to get to the home. Perhaps the perp(s) even followed them home that very night.
I just do not know.

Once at the home entrance is gained, perhaps by a lie of some sort, and the crime begins.
The parents are perhaps beaten & in the case of the mother perhaps raped and
then tied up. The girls might be told that if they go with the perp(s) willingly and
'cooperate' the parents willl be spared. They go with him, the one girl leaving
behind the purse she is not used to carrying . . . .reverting to her usual habit of
leaving stuff behind when she is distracted. He drives them to another location but
they are perhaps sighted with him a time or two in his truck but he gets them restrained
at the new location or harmed & killed there & then and he goes back to the parents
and shoots them and sets the house ablaze.

I don't know if he would stay to watch the fire response to the blaze. Sometimes perps
do strange stuff like that.

 

[wfgodot]

Perhaps the one party of possible perpetrators who would not take the weapons would be LE, as disposal of the weapons would be problematical - most or all would be registered and thus inconvenient to keep, sell or trade. Too much could go wrong for those in positions of authority. Besides, those in LE might likely have all the guns they needed already. The possible losses would far outweigh the gains.

Lots of people around here still believe this was a revenge killing. Others believe it was about drugs. It could have been both.