OK OK - Molly Miller, 17, & Colt Haynes, 21, Wilson, 7 July 2013 - #1

[OkieGranny]

Good points and I agree that there are things that need searched very badly. Preferably by outside area LE like the FBI.

I wish we knew precisely where the location of the fire pit was in relation to the car wreck.

Got to thinking about if they were lost, and they had a lighter, they would build a fire at night, and they also may build one to signal for help. So, if they managed to build a fire and stayed at the fire, what if the wrong people found them too late and they had already passed away and were near the fire? Would they just build a bigger fire and get rid of evidence because they were afraid of culpability?

Didn't we read that the fire was burning for days, and maybe even weeks? It seems really odd that a fire would be burning so long. And then we hear that a backhoe came and buried the fire using a backhoe.

Something really seems strange about that fire pit. Molly's mom sure seemed like she wanted a better search of the fire pit area. I agree with her, and a good forensic team could still possibly find things in the area of the fire pit. Its not like everything can be burned to ashes in most fires. There usually are bits and pieces of things that could still be found.

We have such limited information, it is really hard in this case. It would be great if we had a google map with precise markings of the car wreck, the fire pit, the drivers house, those 2 roads, etc., and that would help us see how far apart things were. Some people are good with creating BING maps with markings on them.

But you are so right that things need searched the right way. Preferably by someone like the FBI with no ties to the area. If I was the family, I would not even want OSBI at this point.

Now you're almost reading my mind, lol. Just about everything you covered in this post is something I've either been thinking or have been deep-digging to find answers to, without a whole lot of luck. It is frustrating to have so little info to work with, and especially frustrating that there's no POI officially named so we can sleuth him. I've got my knives sharpened and ready to go if that day ever comes.

Am still unable to pinpoint either the location of the car or the burning hole. The most specific info I could find about the hole is that it was "east of Pike Road." Yes, it did supposedly burn for two weeks, and yes, the families, or at least the Millers, seem to believe there's something very suspicious about the hole. IMO, it absolutely needs to be excavated and its contents thoroughly sifted by someone who knows what they're doing.

Found a very brief exchange between two Miller cousins, one who participated in the interview and another who did not; one said seeing the hole is just too much, and the other said yes, it is. It gave me chills, and really kind of cemented my belief that the hole is important in this story.

 

[reedus23]

I just now started reading this case (still have about 10 pages to go through) but I found this to be an incredibly helpful "cheat sheet". Sometimes I get so lost when I jump in to already well established cases here. I just wanted to bump it up. Thanks to Windstorm for the help!




This bothers me so much:
"July 8, 2013 - Colt's family reports that he called several friends and said him and Molly were in a creek bed between Pike road and Long Hollow rd and that he had a broken ankle with the bone sticking out. They report that friends drove up and down the road yelling for him and honking their horn, while they had him on the phone, but he never heard the horn honking from his location. "

It's very spooky (for lack of a better term). Has his location been at the time of those calls be pin pointed by pings? Is it possible he had suffered head trauma and was confused as to his whereabouts? Thinking of him lying injured and calling friends WHILE his friends were driving that road honking and calling for him hurts my heart and gives me a deep down scares feeling. This is straight out of a horror movie.

Do we know when that call was made on July 8? And what is the source for that knowledge?

 

[Hatfield]

Do we know when that call was made on July 8? And what is the source for that knowledge?

There is an interview transcript about 2 or 3 or so pages back where Colt's relatives are talking to the radio host. Not sure exactly which post to refer to without searching for it, but they gave a time regarding that phone call and the friends searching and if I am not mistaken, they said that somewhere around 3 AM is when the friends were out searching for him. So somewhere in that general timeframe or before that time is when Colt's call would have been made.

 

[YidArmyRach]

Or broke his nose. I think I've read or heard somewhere that an airbag can break your nose. Hold on...

Yep, just did some quick Googling and it appears that a deploying airbag can not only break your nose, it can cause chest trauma as well.

ETA: Have been sitting here thinking about that, and am now even more interested in knowing if the airbags deployed. If they did, they would almost certainly have DNA on them. Unless someone cut the airbags away during the two weeks the car sat out there, and destroyed them. In a burning hole, perhaps?

Obviously every crash is different, but a few years ago, I had someone suddenly pull out in front of my car when I was driving at about 40mph and I hit them. My car was a write off, and theirs was a mess too. Both my air bags deployed. However, neither I nor my passenger got any injuries whatsoever from the air bag. It didn't even hurt. Perhaps it would be different if you weren't wearing a seat belt?

 

[Hatfield]

Now you're almost reading my mind, lol. Just about everything you covered in this post is something I've either been thinking or have been deep-digging to find answers to, without a whole lot of luck. It is frustrating to have so little info to work with, and especially frustrating that there's no POI officially named so we can sleuth him. I've got my knives sharpened and ready to go if that day ever comes.

Am still unable to pinpoint either the location of the car or the burning hole. The most specific info I could find about the hole is that it was "east of Pike Road." Yes, it did supposedly burn for two weeks, and yes, the families, or at least the Millers, seem to believe there's something very suspicious about the hole. IMO, it absolutely needs to be excavated and its contents thoroughly sifted by someone who knows what they're doing.

Found a very brief exchange between two Miller cousins, one who participated in the interview and another who did not; one said seeing the hole is just too much, and the other said yes, it is. It gave me chills, and really kind of cemented my belief that the hole is important in this story.

Thanks....I totally agree about the fire pit hole and it definitely is on the top of the list for a thorough forensic search. We have Mollys mom and relatives all concerned about the fire pit hole, so that is good enough for me to be concerned too.

 

[McSpy]

Thanks for doing this sort of checking on the maps. I agree that area would typically not have woods for miles and miles without finally coming out to a clearing, but here is what I am wondering about.....

If we go with Theory #2,
I think at first they did not want to be found by LE or anyone else except their friends or someone who could get them out of there. I am afraid that they were afraid of being caught because of the LE car chase the night before. I think maybe at first they were purposely trying to avoid all houses and vehicles and were hoping they could get to a main road where they could hitchhike or something. By the time they realized their lives were really in danger due to dehydration, injury, etc., it was maybe too late and maybe even Molly was too sick to make it far.

The other thing about that area, that even though there is lots of land, I am sure there were certain parts that really did not have too many houses at all. So, depending on where they were, if Molly finally decided to go to the next house she finds, it may have been a long ways off, and only if she headed in the right direction. If she went the wrong way, I could see a scenerio where she may not even find a house for a long ways. 60 to 100 acre properties would have lots of spots where either no houses or few houses, since some people buy land just for farming or grazing and they dont live on the land. If I read things right, they were in an area with unpaved gravel or dirt type roads, so that indicates they were pretty far out in the sticks and not much vehicle traffic on those back country roads. So, there would not be too many houses either I wouldnt think.

I am really afraid that they were purposely avoiding all cars and houses at first, thinking any car was LE. Trying to put myself in their shoes, and I could see them actually ducking into the woods if a car approached thinking everyone was LE and out to get them. By the time Molly may have realized she was sick or in need of help, she may not have been in good condition herself. It is horrible to even think about.

All this of course is only if Theory 2 is what turned out to be the case.

I agree that they were avoiding houses. In fact, there are a few houses on Pike, which are not too far geographically from Long Hollow Rd. Molly said in one phone call that she was walking down Pike. I do believe she was walking on Pike, because she was unfamiliar with that area. IMO, she probably saw a street sign. Those houses on Pike probably had outside faucets too. Water was so close by!

Was it possible the creeks were dry in early July in that area? In that kind of heat (90sF), they needed to drink water.

 

[McSpy]

This below is definitely one spot to focus searching on. This is pretty specific. Searches could hone in on JUST the creek beds in the area. That would help limit the searching...

"July 8, 2013 - Colt's family reports that he called several friends and said him and Molly were in a creek bed between Pike road and Long Hollow rd and that he had a broken ankle with the bone sticking out. "

This could be the spot where they waited a long time. Creek beds in that area are generally dry creek beds because most creeks in Oklahoma and Texas are "run off" type creeks where they only fill up when good rains come. If there was water, it most likely wasnt too deep, and maybe they went there to find water.

A couple bad things too.....is if they drank any creek water, they could have gotten very sick and this could have made them both too sick to even walk.
If the creek banks were really steep, it may have made it very difficult for Colt to get out of the creek with a broken ankle. Molly may have stayed with him for awhile, and by the time she decided to go get help, she may have been either too dehydrated or too sick to make it far herself.

Doesn't look good for them, I am afraid. You answered my question about the creek. I was thinking it was dry, but there may have been a pool of water in a wider or deeper part of that creek, but I don't know that area. In fact, it could have been all dry or like you said, they could have became sick on any creek water they found. The whole thing is so sad.

 

[McSpy]

I just studied Google maps of the area and find that if Colt's friends were hollaring and honking their horns on Long Hollow, I'm pretty sure Molly and Colt would not have heard them if they were in the creek bed near Pike. Did Colt's friends drive down Pike or did they stay on Long Hollow?

 

[McSpy]

Where exactly did CN's grandparents live? Did they live on Oswalt Rd., not too far from the freeway? If so, it is a considerable distance from Long Hollow. Was the fire pit on the Long Hollow property? I'm a little confused on this . . .

 

[McSpy]

Good points and I agree that there are things that need searched very badly. Preferably by outside area LE like the FBI.

I wish we knew precisely where the location of the fire pit was in relation to the car wreck.

Got to thinking about if they were lost, and they had a lighter, they would build a fire at night, and they also may build one to signal for help. So, if they managed to build a fire and stayed at the fire, what if the wrong people found them too late and they had already passed away and were near the fire? Would they just build a bigger fire and get rid of evidence because they were afraid of culpability?

Didn't we read that the fire was burning for days, and maybe even weeks? It seems really odd that a fire would be burning so long. And then we hear that a backhoe came and buried the fire using a backhoe.

Something really seems strange about that fire pit. Molly's mom sure seemed like she wanted a better search of the fire pit area. I agree with her, and a good forensic team could still possibly find things in the area of the fire pit. Its not like everything can be burned to ashes in most fires. There usually are bits and pieces of things that could still be found.

We have such limited information, it is really hard in this case. It would be great if we had a google map with precise markings of the car wreck, the fire pit, the drivers house, those 2 roads, etc., and that would help us see how far apart things were. Some people are good with creating BING maps with markings on them.

But you are so right that things need searched the right way. Preferably by someone like the FBI with no ties to the area. If I was the family, I would not even want OSBI at this point.

As you probably know, meth is big in Oklahoma. We already know that Colt got into trouble for it. So I'm thinking meth chemicals could have been burning in that pit. Possibly, CN was involved in manufacturing it, so he decided to dispose of it all because he thought it was possible LE would be looking for him and anything illegal too.

How does one dispose of their trash in that area? Are these types of fires common? When I was a kid, we burned everything, but not anymore. It gets hauled away and we recycle the rest or compost.

 

[OkieGranny]

Thanks for doing this sort of checking on the maps. I agree that area would typically not have woods for miles and miles without finally coming out to a clearing, but here is what I am wondering about.....

If we go with Theory #2,
I think at first they did not want to be found by LE or anyone else except their friends or someone who could get them out of there. I am afraid that they were afraid of being caught because of the LE car chase the night before. I think maybe at first they were purposely trying to avoid all houses and vehicles and were hoping they could get to a main road where they could hitchhike or something. By the time they realized their lives were really in danger due to dehydration, injury, etc., it was maybe too late and maybe even Molly was too sick to make it far.

The other thing about that area, that even though there is lots of land, I am sure there were certain parts that really did not have too many houses at all. So, depending on where they were, if Molly finally decided to go to the next house she finds, it may have been a long ways off, and only if she headed in the right direction. If she went the wrong way, I could see a scenerio where she may not even find a house for a long ways. 60 to 100 acre properties would have lots of spots where either no houses or few houses, since some people buy land just for farming or grazing and they dont live on the land. If I read things right, they were in an area with unpaved gravel or dirt type roads, so that indicates they were pretty far out in the sticks and not much vehicle traffic on those back country roads. So, there would not be too many houses either I wouldnt think.

I am really afraid that they were purposely avoiding all cars and houses at first, thinking any car was LE. Trying to put myself in their shoes, and I could see them actually ducking into the woods if a car approached thinking everyone was LE and out to get them. By the time Molly may have realized she was sick or in need of help, she may not have been in good condition herself. It is horrible to even think about.

All this of course is only if Theory 2 is what turned out to be the case.

It is possible they were being elusive at the beginning, hiding from either LE or [the driver], but as the early morning hours passed and Colt's friends were unable to find them, did Colt begin to understand the true danger of his situation before the battery in his phone ran out?

One of the scenarios that runs through my head is that Molly's phone may have been taken from her as a result of making that 911 call so she couldn't do it again. Either yanked from her hand or she may have been physically assaulted. Or worse.

She was a juvenile, she had no previous criminal history (that we know of), she wasn't the one driving, she was probably scared out of her wits in situation that had turned into something much more than she bargained for, and whatever trouble she might have faced under the circumstances would not have been nearly as serious as the trouble the two young men might have been in. The one who was behind the wheel, in particular. One or both of them may not have trusted her with a phone.

The possibility of that sort of thing happening to Molly and the expression of doubt by at least one of her family members are what keep me from being able to accept as fact that Molly ever made any of the phone calls or the 33 text messages sent from her phone after the 911 call. And, without those, there just isn't anything left to convince me that she lived very long after the 911 call.

 

[McSpy]

Now you're almost reading my mind, lol. Just about everything you covered in this post is something I've either been thinking or have been deep-digging to find answers to, without a whole lot of luck. It is frustrating to have so little info to work with, and especially frustrating that there's no POI officially named so we can sleuth him. I've got my knives sharpened and ready to go if that day ever comes.

Am still unable to pinpoint either the location of the car or the burning hole. The most specific info I could find about the hole is that it was "east of Pike Road." Yes, it did supposedly burn for two weeks, and yes, the families, or at least the Millers, seem to believe there's something very suspicious about the hole. IMO, it absolutely needs to be excavated and its contents thoroughly sifted by someone who knows what they're doing.

Found a very brief exchange between two Miller cousins, one who participated in the interview and another who did not; one said seeing the hole is just too much, and the other said yes, it is. It gave me chills, and really kind of cemented my belief that the hole is important in this story.

This kind of answers my question of where the fire pit was located. Someone had to go out of their way to burn things there, IMO. There is no house on that property. Looks like some kind of shed or old work building close to the end of Long Hollow. Is it possible one of the homes on Pike is owned by a CN relative? Their homes back up to that property (if I have this correct).

 

[McSpy]

It is possible they were being elusive at the beginning, hiding from either LE or [the driver], but as the early morning hours passed and Colt's friends were unable to find them, did Colt begin to understand the true danger of his situation before the battery in his phone ran out?

One of the scenarios that runs through my head is that Molly's phone may have been taken from her as a result of making that 911 call so she couldn't do it again. Either yanked from her hand or she may have been physically assaulted. Or worse.

She was a juvenile, she had no previous criminal history (that we know of), she wasn't the one driving, she was probably scared out of her wits in situation that had turned into something much more than she bargained for, and whatever trouble she might have faced under the circumstances would not have been nearly as serious as the trouble the two young men might have been in. The one who was behind the wheel, in particular. One or both of them may not have trusted her with a phone.

The possibility of that sort of thing happening to Molly and the expression of doubt by at least one of her family members are what keep me from being able to accept as fact that Molly ever made any of the phone calls or the 33 text messages sent from her phone after the 911 call. And, without those, there just isn't anything left to convince me that she lived very long after the 911 call.

This is all too possible, but what about the call where she claimed she was on Pike. She was crying and claimed to be very thirsty on that call. It sort of rings true. Could she have been using Colt's phone, because CN took hers? Wouldn't ping and phone record info tell the story?

 

[reedus23]

There is an interview transcript about 2 or 3 or so pages back where Colt's relatives are talking to the radio host. Not sure exactly which post to refer to without searching for it, but they gave a time regarding that phone call and the friends searching and if I am not mistaken, they said that somewhere around 3 AM is when the friends were out searching for him. So somewhere in that general timeframe or before that time is when Colt's call would have been made.

Thanks. No need to dig it up. That is all I was wondering. I must have missed the time portion.

Do we know anything about the content of the texts that evening or who they were to?

I get the content of the call by Colt and this one call supposedly made by Molly talking about needing a ride. Have we pinpointed down how many other phone calls were made? Who they were all made to? And the content of any other calls?

 

[reedus23]

How big of a "pit" are we talking about here? I believe I remember reading it was about 10 feet deep but do we know the length/width? Trying to get a visual of what we're talking about.

 

[OkieGranny]

As you probably know, meth is big in Oklahoma. We already know that Colt got into trouble for it. So I'm thinking meth chemicals could have been burning in that pit. Possibly, CN was involved in manufacturing it, so he decided to dispose of it all because he thought it was possible LE would be looking for him and anything illegal too.

How does one dispose of their trash in that area? Are these types of fires common? When I was a kid, we burned everything, but not anymore. It gets hauled away and we recycle the rest or compost.

Yep, we used to burn our trash, too, in a couple of 55-gallon barrels out back. Whether that's still allowed depends on local statutes, I imagine.

Colt and Molly vanished on July 8. The burning hole was investigated on September 24, about two and a half months later, so anyone who felt the need would have had plenty of time to scour the area for any incriminating evidence and either remove or destroy it. Some components of the meth-making process are more difficult to obtain than others, and I'd be willing to bet any such items were removed from the area rather than destroyed.

Something else that was going on in the area before and after July 8 is a series of fires of suspicious origin, some of which burned hundreds of acres at a time. This article is from September 27:

http://www.kxii.com/fox/home/headlines/1000-acres-burn-in-Love-County--225601162.html

Firefighters were able to contain the fire Thursday night, but Friday afternoon Campbell says the arsonist reignited flames burning 400 additional acres, chief Campbell says he's not surprised,

Alexandra Carter " how many would you say there have been?"
Chief Campbell " 60-70 in that area the past three years, different places."
Alexandra Carter " all on the same road?"
Chief Campbell " yes"

If I'm not mistaken, a suspicious fire burned at or near the hole, so it wasn't just the hole itself that was on fire. In the last day or two I read an article that quoted the sheriff as saying that the hole was caused by a smoldering tree stump and I'm kicking myself now because I didn't bookmark that article and can't find it again.

Those fires may totally unrelated, but perhaps someone saw them as convenient cover because he had a couple of inconvenient bodies on his hands? Bodies than had lain out in the woods for a couple of months but with the rumors and accusations flying, he felt it was time to make sure they were never found? Burning them in a fiery hole might have only raised suspicion that the local firebug had struck again, and nothing more. That is, until Molly's cousin went to check it out and called in LE.

 

[Hatfield]

Thanks. No need to dig it up. That is all I was wondering. I must have missed the time portion.

Do we know anything about the content of the texts that evening or who they were to?

I get the content of the call by Colt and this one call supposedly made by Molly talking about needing a ride. Have we pinpointed down how many other phone calls were made? Who they were all made to? And the content of any other calls?

I too am wondering about the alleged texts because I dont remember reading much about them, except just a general statement that there were these alleged texts. I think there were only 3 phone calls that I remember reading about in the transcripts....

1-Mollys alleged 911 call right around time of wreck

2-Colts alleged phone call was somewhere around 3 AM 'ish or a little before
was to his friends and they were the ones that went to look for him and were honking their horns hoping he would hear them. Colts relatives said they even spoke with a homeowner in the area that confirmed about the friends looking for him.

3-Molly's alleged phone call occurs around 6 AM 'ish
was to her friend who was going to work. The guy said she did not sound alarmed. (I am wondering if that person may have mistaken of the day. Maybe it was the morning before the car chase and not the morning after. That would explain why she did not sound alarmed. Also, this alleged phone call was told to us by Colt's relatives and not Molly's, so Molly's relatives are unsure if they believe this phone call really happened.

I would hope that both Molly and Colt families could join forces and work together. I realize they may have some bad blood between them, but I do think they would benefit each other by working together. Easier said than done of course.

 

[Hatfield]

This case reminds me of another missing family case in Oklahoma. Not sure if there is a WS thread about this case, but below is a good summary of it. Both these cases have so much mystery about them.

http://aprillwood.wordpress.com/2013/06/14/the-jamison-family-missing-in-oklahoma/

P.S. You can ignore the physic stuff towards the bottom if that does not interest you. I just found this on google and it seemed to do a good job of summarizing the case at the top.

 

[OkieGranny]

I too am wondering about the alleged texts because I dont remember reading much about them, except just a general statement that there were these alleged texts. I think there were only 3 phone calls that I remember reading about in the transcripts....

1-Mollys alleged 911 call right around time of wreck

2-Colts alleged phone call was somewhere around 3 AM 'ish or a little before
was to his friends and they were the ones that went to look for him and were honking their horns hoping he would hear them. Colts relatives said they even spoke with a homeowner in the area that confirmed about the friends looking for him.

3-Molly's alleged phone call occurs around 6 AM 'ish
was to her friend who was going to work. The guy said she did not sound alarmed. (I am wondering if that person may have mistaken of the day. Maybe it was the morning before the car chase and not the morning after. That would explain why she did not sound alarmed. Also, this alleged phone call was told to us by Colt's relatives and not Molly's, so Molly's relatives are unsure if they believe this phone call really happened.

I would hope that both Molly and Colt families could join forces and work together. I realize they may have some bad blood between them, but I do think they would benefit each other by working together. Easier said than done of course.

They are cooperating and sharing info. I think the concern on the part of Molly's family is that if the two are lumped together, people would just assume they ran off together and not bother to read any further. I don't know, that's just kind of the drift I get.

I said earlier that I'm not convinced Molly lived long after the 911 call. That doesn't mean my mind is completely closed to the possibility that she did make those calls or texts. There just isn't enough evidence available to us that proves she was the one using her phone.

Don't forget, the two families seemed to describe two different calls. The "calm" call was around 6:00 a.m. and we don't know when the "crying" call would have been. The 33 text messages are mentioned in this post on Operation Find Molly:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/438762539575189/permalink/449420648509378/

This was a repost of the psychic's report from that weekend's search and it wasn't posted by a family member (I think), but the family did let it stand so that leads me to think the 33 text messages and two phone calls did show up on her phone record.

I remember that weekend, constantly refreshing the OFMM page for any news while the search was going on. Can't find the comments now and they may have been deleted, but I do remember the psychic posting requests for food and water to be brought to the search team and also that someone get a message to a specific person to contact him. He did give a name and, if I remember correctly, indicated that all 33 texts were to that person.

Am embarrassed to admit that I don't even look at my own phone record so I honestly don't know if all 33 texts would be outgoing or would that also include incoming?

 

[reedus23]

I truly mean no offense by this because it doesn't matter if they are accurate or junk science, but the reality is they are not going to be taken serious if a psychic is leading the way. Have other organizations that have experience with these sorts of cases been contacted?

Regarding the 6:00 a.m. call, do we know who that was made to? If not name, maybe nature of relationship? I know friend, but a recent friend? An old boyfriend? Someone who was only an acquaintance and maybe had stronger ties to others? It would seem to me a close friend would recognize her voice. For some reason they don't believe this person. That would make them complicit in whatever happened.

Sorry for all the questions, but I'm having a hard time picturing where everything went down. Last question. Where was this hole in relation to where the friends went driving/honking their horn looking for Colt?

Many thanks for your patience.