OK - OU fraternity "SAE" sings racist chant on bus

[Nova]

The ONLY point was in response to a poster who said the media was not reporting enough on the fact that the students were not from Oklahoma. I made no judgment about the implications of where they were from, so maybe your comment or question should be addressed to the poster who thought the issue was important.

I apologize. I referenced your post just to give my response context, without realizing that in doing so I might misrepresent your position.

I know you weren't one of the gang complaining it wasn't fair because Texans were the ringleaders.

 

[Steft50]

I saw a sign like that outside Bowie, Texas, in the 1970s. I was shocked even back then. It seems like just when we take a few steps forward, we are thrown back into this ****!

We were friends with a couple whose wife is from Alabama. Her father owned property and at the fence to enter the property there was a sign, freshly painted regularly with the words "No Ni***rs allowed". As of at least 1995 that sign still existed - that was the last we saw of them as we were transfered to another post.

 

[gitana1]

I really don't understand the "hostile learning environment" angle. Can someone explain it to me? Gitana?

The frat boys were on a bus chartered by the fraternity, not a university or even public conveyance, going to a fraternity social event. Most assuredly there were no blacks on the bus to feel intimidated. So how is this creating a hostile learning environment?

It's not as if the SAE members were marching around campus publicly singing the song. My experience of such types is that they are the souls of propriety in public and it is only in private that the racism comes out.

I liken it to a "hostile work environment" linked to issues of sexual harassment. To my knowledge--which may be wrong, hence my question--my male coworkers could go out to a bar on Friday night and discuss my female coworkers and me in the crudest possible terms, but unless they did so or implied it on the job, how could I complain that they were creating a hostile work environment for me? I most likely wouldn't even be aware of the discussion.

I feel the need to repeat, I am not in any way defending what the frat boys said. I am, however, very interested in the situation from a legal standpoint.

I'm frankly learning about it myself. It seems to be a narrow exception to the first amendment right to utter racist speech (well protected, BTW, by groups like the ACLU who have defended the KKK or neo-Nazi's right to march in public, for example). The following explains it pretty well, I think:

Applying ordinary free-speech doctrine, the expulsion looks unconstitutional, as professor Eugene Volokh has pointed out. Racist speech is still protected speech under the First Amendment, no matter how repulsive. The fraternity can be banned for race discrimination, which is prohibited conduct. Speaking in favor of discrimination, however, is generally protected.
But Boren's explanation for the expulsion rests on a different theory. He said specifically that the students were being expelled for their "leadership role in leading a racist and exclusionary chant, which has created a hostile educational environment for others."

The important words here are "hostile educational environment." Under federal anti-discrimination law, as interpreted by the Department of Education, a university has an affirmative duty to guarantee students an educational environment in which they are free of hostility based on race or sex.

So Boren was saying that the students are being expelled not for their opinions per se, but because their speech was a form of discriminatory conduct that would create a hostile educational environment for black students. Given that the speech was literally designed to inculcate the value of racial discrimination by making pledges recite their commitment never to admit a black member to the fraternity, this conclusion seems plausible. Removing the chant leaders from campus is aimed to fulfill the educational goal of creating a nonhostile educational environment.


The law doesn't ban speech; it bans the act of discriminating. And when laws are aimed at conduct that incidentally burdens speech, the courts don't subject them to the same strict scrutiny they apply to laws directed primarily at speech.

That's what's going on in Oklahoma. The university is enforcing the legal requirement of a nonhostile educational environment by barring racially hostile conduct. This conduct came in the form of speech — but it can still be prohibited because it was speech only incidentally.http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...pha-epsoilon-perspec-0312-20150311-story.html

Please read the whole article. It is better understood than reading the snips I can post here.


I think that essentially, the University has to balance free speech rights with the potential for discrimination lawsuits. Because the university has an obligation under federal law to protect students from discrimination as well. And allowing students to remain on campus who, as part of a university-related group, are displaying discriminatory practices, while participating in university-related activities, likely opens the university up to liability of some sort at some point.

 

[tangelo]

So singing about hanging blacks is okay with you because nobody on that bus actually did what they gleefully sang about?

How did their singing on a bus affect you? and why? I don't see how it possibly could, and if, for whatever reason you claim it did, then you really have a problem with whoever posted the video of the singing on a bus and all the people who re-posted it and linked to it cause that by your logic is exponentially worse.

and that mixon guy is black. and an unrepentant homophobe.

 

[liljim]

How did their singing on a bus affect you? and why? I don't see how it possibly could, and if, for whatever reason you claim it did, then you really have a problem with whoever posted the video of the singing on a bus and all the people who re-posted it and linked to it cause that by your logic is exponentially worse.

and that mixon guy is black. and an unrepentant homophobe.

well if you want to talk about logic...

nothing in your reply is in any way related to the question she asked.
nothing in her question should have given you any cause to think that she was claiming to have been directly affected.
there is absolutely no reason to have a problem with the person who made the video public. none.

the question was - "So singing about hanging blacks is okay with you because nobody on that bus actually did what they gleefully sang about?"

care to try again and directly answer the question this time?

 

[gitana1]

How did their singing on a bus affect you? and why? I don't see how it possibly could, and if, for whatever reason you claim it did, then you really have a problem with whoever posted the video of the singing on a bus and all the people who re-posted it and linked to it cause that by your logic is exponentially worse.

and that mixon guy is black. and an unrepentant homophobe.

Wow. I know the question wasn't directed to me but their singing actually affected me greatly.

The confirmation that in this beautiful country of ours there remain young people, college kids, who not only harbor such horrible racist thoughts but feel so comfortable, in fact, so assured in their ability to express their racism in a rabid, aggressive manner, among a variety of people, including a bus driver, is scary. It is a stark reminder as to what life is like for black people every day in our country. These college students weren't even hiding their blatant and disgusting racism. Oh, they knew it shouldn't be recorded, but they had no problem chanting such things in front of a crowd of people.

That speaks volumes as to where we still are as a nation and if this is how people act in public, in essence, it is a grim reminder of what happens in private, when people like these make decisions about who to hire, where to shift voting districts, who to pull over, who to charge and for what, who to vote for, how much money to put into education in certain areas, etc.

This act has implcations that are far greater than this act. The fact that anyone would defensively demand to know how this act affects them, as if it doesn't matter because no one was lynched, is a huge red flag to me. How can it not affect all of us as Americans and as humans?

 

[Nova]

I am the one who wrote the post that nrdsb4 was replying to. My point was that the university, and to some extent Oklahoma as a whole, is now being vilified by many as racist, when the ringleaders weren't even from Oklahoma. That doesn't seem justified to me.

Just FYI, I wouldn't advise calling people from Oklahoma "Okies" as a matter of course. I know you've read the Grapes of Wrath. During that era the term was used solely as a pejorative, and many Oklahomans, especially those of older generations, still see it that way. Just like some Native Americans find "Indian" insulting and others don't.

(Merle Haggard was from Bakersfield, not Muskogee. Just sayin, I know you didn't mention him.)

Izzie, yes, I have read my Steinbeck. And since my grandparents, parents and aunts went to college in Enid, I know plenty of people from Oklahoma. I'm 61 and I don't know anyone my age who finds the term "Okie" offensive. The Dust Bowl was 80 years ago.

I think the Merle Haggard song did a lot to change perception of the term, particularly among Baby Boomers.

But for the record, I not only did not accuse all Oklahomans of being racist, I specifically brought up an equivalent incident from that "blue state" bastion, Los Angeles--just to prove that racism isn't the sole possession of the South and Southwest.

 

[Nova]

I really don't understand the "hostile learning environment" angle. Can someone explain it to me? Gitana?

The frat boys were on a bus chartered by the fraternity, not a university or even public conveyance, going to a fraternity social event. Most assuredly there were no blacks on the bus to feel intimidated. So how is this creating a hostile learning environment?

It's not as if the SAE members were marching around campus publicly singing the song. My experience of such types is that they are the souls of propriety in public and it is only in private that the racism comes out.

I liken it to a "hostile work environment" linked to issues of sexual harassment. To my knowledge--which may be wrong, hence my question--my male coworkers could go out to a bar on Friday night and discuss my female coworkers and me in the crudest possible terms, but unless they did so or implied it on the job, how could I complain that they were creating a hostile work environment for me? I most likely wouldn't even be aware of the discussion.

I feel the need to repeat, I am not in any way defending what the frat boys said. I am, however, very interested in the situation from a legal standpoint.

I'm not gitana or even a lawyer, but in the UCLA incident (which was 20 years ago), the taboo chants and songs grew in popularity until fraternities were chanting/singing at their windows as women and people of color passed by. The argument was that students have a right to feel safe so they can prosper in a learning environment. Assaulting them with hate speech re rape and lynching created a "hostile learning environment" that interfered with their ability to learn by making them fearful of even attending class.

(BTW, the UCLA community was horrified by the whole affair. I don't mean to give the impression that there was widespread support for such frats. The story was largely exposed, initially, by the campus newspaper.)

 

[IzzyBlanche]

Izzie, yes, I have read my Steinbeck. And since my grandparents, parents and aunts went to college in Enid, I know plenty of people from Oklahoma. I'm 61 and I don't know anyone my age who finds the term "Okie" offensive. The Dust Bowl was 80 years ago.

I think the Merle Haggard song did a lot to change perception of the term, particularly among Baby Boomers.

But for the record, I not only did not accuse all Oklahomans of being racist, I specifically brought up an equivalent incident from that "blue state" bastion, Los Angeles--just to prove that racism isn't the sole possession of the South and Southwest.

Interesting. I know people of many ages who find it derogatory if not offensive. I wouldn't include you at 61 in the "older generation" though. I meant people old enough to be a generation removed from the era in which "Okie" was an insult. Just curious if you care to share, did your relatives all grow up in Oklahoma? Not that that diminishes their opinions, just curious if they were from there or only went to school there.

I'm not sure where I was unclear but I never thought you were accusing all Oklahomans of being racist, and I apologize if my words came across to you that way. But I've seen attitudes expressed, not on Websleuths, along the lines of "Oklahoma, it figures." Which does convey the idea that most if not all Oklahomans are racist. And ironic since the ringleaders weren't even from Oklahoma. Although I'm sure there were plenty of people on the bus who were.

 

[IzzyBlanche]

On a lighter note, I thought this was pretty amusing.

Warning: Language

http://www.thelostogle.com/2015/03/09/10-questions-about-the-racist-sae-video-that-need-answers/

 

[IzzyBlanche]

I just thought of something and I went back and looked at the videos linked in the first post of this thread. It looks to me like the first video (the original that started it all) and the second one, where someone is trying to shush the filming, were taken from two different angles. The first from the left side of the bus aisle and the second from the right side of the aisle. Does anyone else see this?

It's not important probably, but it made me wonder if there is more than one video.

Also, can anyone provide a link that tells who took the video in the first place? Just curious if it was another member of the frat or one of their dates.

 

[Ragamuffin]

I'm shocked and saddened there is even a reason for 6 pages of debate on this subject. Rich white boys and girls chanting incredibly offensive "songs" as part of their "frat" belonging is wrong. There is no debate. These young men and women know what they are singing is wrong. It is offensive. It is racist. It is denigrating. It is a reflection on these people singing, on their parents, and on their "frat". They *know* this, and they do it anyway. No sympathy, not excuses, no "My best friend is black." None.

I am a white woman. I live in an area where my friends are of many races, many religions. My children's friends are from many countries, many religions, many ethnicities.

Hatred is taught. It is not "natural".

I'm disgusted that this is even open to debate.

Wrong is wrong, as a parent of children with friends of every ethnicity/religion, as a woman, as a friend to many others who don't look like me/believe like me, as a HUMAN BEING.

 

[IzzyBlanche]

Ragamuffin, I don't think anyone is debating whether or not what the frat boys did was wrong. On that at least, we all agree.

 

[Ragamuffin]

I'm sorry, I apologize. I had a moment and I posted when I shouldn't have. A case of typing before thinking. I can't withdraw my remarks, but I can, and do, accept I was unnecessarily hostile, and for that, I do apologize.

 

[IzzyBlanche]

No worries, we all have our moments. :grouphug:

 

[SuzDuJour]

have the families of any of the black students lynched by SAE for pledging them made any public comment?

SAE - 4 years ago at Cornell University, George Desdunes, a 19-year-old sophomore from Brooklyn, New York, and the son of Haitian immigrants. His hands and feet were tied with duct tape and zip ties. Blindfolded, he was given so much alcohol that he died within a few hours of the hazing. All alone and completely unconscious, he was found dead by a college cleaning crew the following morning. His mother filed a $25 million wrongful death suit in the case.

 

[SuzDuJour]

The mother's public comment: "With the death of my son, I find some comfort in knowing that this lawsuit may bring about changes in fraternities that will prevent other families from suffering as I have."

 

[TrackerSam]

SAE - 4 years ago at Cornell University, George Desdunes, a 19-year-old sophomore from Brooklyn, New York, and the son of Haitian immigrants. His hands and feet were tied with duct tape and zip ties. Blindfolded, he was given so much alcohol that he died within a few hours of the hazing. All alone and completely unconscious, he was found dead by a college cleaning crew the following morning. His mother filed a $25 million wrongful death suit in the case.

That was a case of hazing not racism.

 

[tangelo]

SAE - 4 years ago at Cornell University, George Desdunes, a 19-year-old sophomore from Brooklyn, New York, and the son of Haitian immigrants. His hands and feet were tied with duct tape and zip ties. Blindfolded, he was given so much alcohol that he died within a few hours of the hazing. All alone and completely unconscious, he was found dead by a college cleaning crew the following morning. His mother filed a $25 million wrongful death suit in the case.

george desdunes was a brother. meaning he was a member of SAE at the time he drank too much.

 

[tangelo]

Wow. I know the question wasn't directed to me but their singing actually affected me greatly.

The confirmation that in this beautiful country of ours there remain young people, college kids, who not only harbor such horrible racist thoughts but feel so comfortable, in fact, so assured in their ability to express their racism in a rabid, aggressive manner, among a variety of people, including a bus driver, is scary. It is a stark reminder as to what life is like for black people every day in our country. These college students weren't even hiding their blatant and disgusting racism. Oh, they knew it shouldn't be recorded, but they had no problem chanting such things in front of a crowd of people.

That speaks volumes as to where we still are as a nation and if this is how people act in public, in essence, it is a grim reminder of what happens in private, when people like these make decisions about who to hire, where to shift voting districts, who to pull over, who to charge and for what, who to vote for, how much money to put into education in certain areas, etc.

This act has implcations that are far greater than this act. The fact that anyone would defensively demand to know how this act affects them, as if it doesn't matter because no one was lynched, is a huge red flag to me. How can it not affect all of us as Americans and as humans?

Q"How were you affected?"

A"Greatly"

The question was really in what way were you affected. Not to what degree you were.

Were you afraid to get on the bus that day for fear of what you may hear being sung? Couldn't make it to the corner market cause your opinion of frat boys was so (greatly) diminished?

Or was it like when hearing the theme from Chariots of Fire always makes me sad?

In your perfect world no one would be allowed to say anything that you by your estimation affected you. Even though you can't articulate how.

and Wow.I don't know where you live but here frats don't make hiring decisions or draw voting districts or pull over & charge anyone. strange.