OK - Terence Crutcher, 40, fatally shot by Tulsa PD officer, 16 Sept 2016

[oceanblueeyes]

I have never really looked at it by only using population statistics. I go by the sum total of those who are being shot and killed by police officers every year. Each person shot and killed by a cop are individual human beings and not mere statistics. Just like the statistic say that it is rare for a stranger to kidnapped and murder a child yet that statistic means nothing for the approximately 175 children a year that it actually happened to.

I look at it on a case by case basis. People are individuals and so are the ones shot and killed by cops. I am more interested in the totality in numbers where individuals died this way than I am by population statistics based solely on population by race.

Which race has to attend more funerals/memorials due to their family member being shot and killed by a cop every year since dead bodies are dead bodies. I think it is more important to recognize the actual body count.

There are so many varying other factors that must be applied when only using population percentages by race.IMO Plus there are far more justified shootings by police officers than there are that are unjustified. This includes all races of those who were shot and killed. That also has to be taken into consideration on each individual case. What were the circumstances surrounding each person shot must also be taken into account.

However: in this case, from what I have seen thus far, I am appalled this man was shot and killed by a cop (the race of the victim and the race of the cop is irrelevant to me because it wouldn't matter what race either of them were, imo.) That is if the short video clip shows all that transpired from beginning to the end. I do think it is always wise to wait until the investigation is fully completed since in other cases it wasn't as it seemed to be at the time of the shooting.

If the investigation finds this officer used unjustifiable deadly force then I hope they are prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. As of now I do not understand why this man was shot but that is what an investigation is for and to work all of that out to come to a conclusion. At this time, imo. it seems the officer overreacted when the man reached into his vehicle. Did they think he was reaching in to get a weapon? That is the only thing I can think of at the moment. I certainly don't think the officer went out hunting for someone to shoot dead that day though. I feel very sad this man lost his life. But why would he reach into his vehicle though? Did they ask him for his drivers license? That makes no sense to me but may become clearer when more information comes out.

 

[human]

If there are 100 white people and ten black, and 20 white people are shot and five are black, the percentages are something to look at. It is not raw numbers.

 

[Jax49]

I have never really looked at it by only using population statistics. I go by the sum total of those who are being shot and killed by police officers every year. Each person shot and killed by a cop are individual human beings and not mere statistics. Just like the statistic say that it is rare for a stranger to kidnapped and murder a child yet that statistic means nothing for the approximately 175 children a year that it actually happened to.

I look at it on a case by case basis. People are individuals and so are the ones shot and killed by cops. I am more interested in the totality in numbers where individuals died this way than I am by population statistics based solely on population by race.

Which race has to attend more funerals/memorials due to their family member being shot and killed by a cop every year since dead bodies are dead bodies. I think it is more important to recognize the actual body count.

There are so many varying other factors that must be applied when only using population percentages by race.IMO Plus there are far more justified shootings by police officers than there are that are unjustified. This includes all races of those who were shot and killed. That also has to be taken into consideration on each individual case. What were the circumstances surrounding each person shot must also be taken into account.

However: in this case, from what I have seen thus far, I am appalled this man was shot and killed by a cop (the race of the victim and the race of the cop is irrelevant to me because it wouldn't matter what race either of them were, imo. That is if the short video clip shows all that transpired from beginning to the end. I do think it is always wise to wait until the investigation is fully completed since in other cases it wasn't as it seemed to be at the time of the shooting.

If the investigation finds this officer used unjustifiable deadly force then I hope they are prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. As of now I do not understand why this man was shot but that is what an investigation is for and to work all of that out to come to a conclusion. At this time, imo. it seems the officer overacted when the man reached into his vehicle. Did they think he was reaching in to get a weapon? That is the only thing I can think of at the moment. I certainly don't think the officer went out hunting for someone to shoot dead that day though. I feel very sad this man lost his life. But why would he reach into his vehicle though? That makes no sense to me but may become clearer when more information comes out.

Attorneys for the family held a press conference today. They showed two stills from the video which show the window was up. There is a streak of blood visible on the window.

 

[JeannaT]

I think when we look at statistics, we need to be very careful about our own biases. It may just be that more Black men than white men are shot because more of them are threatening the police. More Black men are in prison than white men because more of them are committing jailable offenses.

There is certainly a huge disparity in how many men are in prison vs. how many women, and we aren't up in arms saying THAT's NOT FAIR! It is fair. Men commit far more violent crimes than women do. Lots more young men are arrested than old men. We're not saying well that's not fair!! Yes it is. Young men commit far more violent offenses than old men do.

Sometimes more people are arrested in a demographic because more of them are committing crimes. I don't know why we all agree it's fair except in the case of racial make-up.

The thing is, when it came to light that he had drugs in his car and a rap sheet as long as your arm, that doesn't mean he deserved to die. It does mean, though, he's much more likely to have been behaving in a threatening way or a suspicious way than if it turned out he was a local high school science teacher with a couple sacks of groceries in his car. So yes, it's highly likely he was acting in a way that put the cops on high alert for their own safety.

 

[JeannaT]

Attorneys for the family held a press conference today. They showed two stills from the video which show the window was up. There is a streak of blood visible on the window.

Yes, that was obvious from the helicopter video. But I certainly couldn't tell it in the ground video, which was from the perspective of the cops who were approaching. It seems unlikely they knew the window was up. Even so, they stated he put his hands down and toward his pockets before he was shot.

Again, I don't think he should have been shot, but it was past time to tase him, IMHO.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Attorneys for the family held a press conference today. They showed two stills from the video which show the window was up. There is a streak of blood visible on the window.

Thank you Jax, I missed that.

 

[Jax49]

Yes, that was obvious from the helicopter video. But I certainly couldn't tell it in the ground video, which was from the perspective of the cops who were approaching. It seems unlikely they knew the window was up. Even so, they stated he put his hands down and toward his pockets before he was shot.

Again, I don't think he should have been shot, but it was past time to tase him, IMHO.

The stills I'm referring to were from ground level.

ETA: The attorneys said they released them because the officer claimed he was reaching into the vehicle. Wish I could find them online; they were very clear.

 

[ohreally]

Yes, that was obvious from the helicopter video. But I certainly couldn't tell it in the ground video, which was from the perspective of the cops who were approaching. It seems unlikely they knew the window was up. Even so, they stated he put his hands down and toward his pockets before he was shot.

Again, I don't think he should have been shot, but it was past time to tase him, IMHO.

I agree, the angle the officer was from the window she may not of known it was closed.

 

[JeannaT]

The stills I'm referring to were from ground level.

When you watch the ground level video, does it seem possible to you that he's reaching in to his car although you know now that he wasn't? Because you have a split second to make that decision, and it's hard to tell if a window is up or down from that angle. It's hard to tell even straight on, if you're believing he's possibly going for a gun - which isn't an outrageous perception.

Or do you think they knew the window was up, knew they were in no danger, and she just felt like killing him? Because I don't think so. I think she was very scared, and for some reason didn't know her partner was about to tase him.

 

[Jax49]

When you watch the ground level video, does it seem possible to you that he's reaching in to his car although you know now that he wasn't? Because you have a split second to make that decision, and it's hard to tell if a window is up or down from that angle. It's hard to tell even straight on, if you're believing he's possibly going for a gun - which isn't an outrageous perception.

Or do you think they knew the window was up, knew they were in no danger, and she just felt like killing him? Because I don't think so. I think she was very scared, and for some reason didn't know her partner was about to tase him.

RBBM IMHO, she has no business carrying a gun for a living.

 

[animlzrule]

I think when we look at statistics, we need to be very careful about our own biases. It may just be that more Black men than white men are shot because more of them are threatening the police. More Black men are in prison than white men because more of them are committing jailable offenses.

There is certainly a huge disparity in how many men are in prison vs. how many women, and we aren't up in arms saying THAT's NOT FAIR! It is fair. Men commit far more violent crimes than women do. Lots more young men are arrested than old men. We're not saying well that's not fair!! Yes it is. Young men commit far more violent offenses than old men do.

Sometimes more people are arrested in a demographic because more of them are committing crimes. I don't know why we all agree it's fair except in the case of racial make-up.

The thing is, when it came to light that he had drugs in his car and a rap sheet as long as your arm, that doesn't mean he deserved to die. It does mean, though, he's much more likely to have been behaving in a threatening way or a suspicious way than if it turned out he was a local high school science teacher with a couple sacks of groceries in his car. So yes, it's highly likely he was acting in a way that put the cops on high alert for their own safety.

BBM This is demonstrably false. "Black Crime Rates: What Happens When Numbers Aren’t Neutral"

"(1) If a black person and a white person each commit a crime, the black person is more likely to be arrested. This is due in part to the fact that black people are more heavily policed.

(2) When black people are arrested for a crime, they are convicted more often than white people arrested for the same crime.

(3) When black people are convicted of a crime, they are more likely to be sentenced to incarceration compared to whites convicted of the same crime.

Racial disparities at every stage of the criminal justice process build upon one another. So, if 1,000 white people and 200 black people (a ratio of 5:1 to reflect the U.S. population) commit the same crime, here is what the eventual prison population could look like:

100 white people and 74 black people might be arrested
50 white people and 48 black people might be convicted.
19 white people and 24 black people might be sentenced to prison.

This example is NOT meant to be a conclusive analysis explaining the incarceration gap. The statistics presented above and applied to the illustrative example come from different contexts and refer to different crimes. Racial disparities in the application of criminal justice are not the only source of differential incarceration rates. Poverty, geography, and lacking educational and career opportunities all likely play a role. These factors exacerbate the effects of systemic racism and feed the cycle of incarceration, joblessness, and poverty that plagues some segments of the black population.

Regardless of the exact factors behind the incarceration gap, it is not some neutral, statistical fact that black people commit more crime. The gap is the result of numerous interacting factors, not the least of which is racism. Explanations of the incarceration gap as a result of black criminal propensity or insular cultural deficiencies are critically flawed, and by definition racist."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kim-farbota/black-crime-rates-your-st_b_8078586.html

 

[JeannaT]

In part, I agree with you animizrule. I have some training in social statistics, and know that there is a disparity in how Blacks are treated in the legal system as well as the educational system. So the numbers are swayed against Black men. But I don't think it accounts for the large disparity. When you look at the worst areas of New Orleans, Chicago, Detroit, and St. Louis, there is no area in the US that has equivalent white crime rate. Black men are very disproportionately victims, as well as perpetrators of crimes. And I agree, there are many factors that go into that statistic.

Just as people in poverty are more likely to be within the CPS system in part because they are more "watched" as parents - they have to submit to more "inspection" of their parenting than upper middle class parents, I agree that groups of young black men in public are watched more carefully and charged more aggressively than white counterparts.

But it doesn't account for the whole disparity.

 

[animlzrule]

Study finds police fatally shoot unarmed black men at disproportionate rates

"A new academic study that builds on Washington Post research into fatal shootings by police has found that unarmed black men were shot and killed last year at disproportionately high rates and that officers involved may be biased in how they perceive threats."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...4-11e5-80e4-c381214de1a3_story.html?tid=a_inl

“The only thing that was significant in predicting whether someone shot and killed by police was unarmed was whether or not they were black,” said Justin Nix, a criminal justice researcher at the University of Louisville and one of the report’s authors. “Crime variables did not matter in terms of predicting whether the person killed was unarmed.”

 

[animlzrule]

In part, I agree with you animizrule. I have some training in social statistics, and know that there is a disparity in how Blacks are treated in the legal system as well as the educational system. So the numbers are swayed against Black men. But I don't think it accounts for the large disparity. When you look at the worst areas of New Orleans, Chicago, Detroit, and St. Louis, there is no area in the US that has equivalent white crime rate. Black men are very disproportionately victims, as well as perpetrators of crimes. And I agree, there are many factors that go into that statistic.

Just as people in poverty are more likely to be within the CPS system in part because they are more "watched" as parents - they have to submit to more "inspection" of their parenting than upper middle class parents, I agree that groups of young black men in public are watched more carefully and charged more aggressively than white counterparts.

But it doesn't account for the whole disparity.

Sure. You have to take into account systemic racism, housing segregation, the fact that people are most likely to commit violence against those whom they live amongst, high density urban areas, extreme poverty and bias.

 

[JeannaT]

Study finds police fatally shoot unarmed black men at disproportionate rates

"A new academic study that builds on Washington Post research into fatal shootings by police has found that unarmed black men were shot and killed last year at disproportionately high rates and that officers involved may be biased in how they perceive threats."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...4-11e5-80e4-c381214de1a3_story.html?tid=a_inl

“The only thing that was significant in predicting whether someone shot and killed by police was unarmed was whether or not they were black,” said Justin Nix, a criminal justice researcher at the University of Louisville and one of the report’s authors. “Crime variables did not matter in terms of predicting whether the person killed was unarmed.”

I COMPLETELY agree with this perspective. Officers are biased in how they perceive threats. I'm certain that if this man in Tulsa had been a white man, the same size, dressed in business clothes, doing the same exact behaviors, he would certainly not have been shot and likely not have been tased. I COMPLETELY agree with that. Cops perceive threat from black suspects at a much higher rate than they perceive threat from white ones.

And that's where we need to start the discussion. It's not that cops want to kill Black people, or hate them, it's that they fear them. They perceive more danger from them, and that causes cops to tase and shoot more quickly.

So that's where we need to take this discussion - this isn't about Black lives matter, it's about cops are afraid of you, let's figure out how to work that out. Because in recent history, Black cops are quicker to shoot black suspects than white ones too. It's not just white cops who perceive threat where there may not be one, Black cops also feel that way.

So there's the discussion, that should have been a couple decades ago. It's a problem, that Law Enforcement feels more threatened (often without cause) by Black suspects. And from there, we can begin to move forward.

 

[bluesneakers]

RBBM IMHO, she has no business carrying a gun for a living.

A man dies because she's too afraid to do her job? If that's what happened - if she's that scared when approaching an unarmed citizen and she has three or four officers by her side - she has no business being in law enforcement.

She needs to be arrested and charged, and then she needs to find a job more suited to her abilities.

 

[bluesneakers]

Study finds police fatally shoot unarmed black men at disproportionate rates

"A new academic study that builds on Washington Post research into fatal shootings by police has found that unarmed black men were shot and killed last year at disproportionately high rates and that officers involved may be biased in how they perceive threats."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...4-11e5-80e4-c381214de1a3_story.html?tid=a_inl

“The only thing that was significant in predicting whether someone shot and killed by police was unarmed was whether or not they were black,” said Justin Nix, a criminal justice researcher at the University of Louisville and one of the report’s authors. “Crime variables did not matter in terms of predicting whether the person killed was unarmed.”

It's so obvious. The numbers are all right there. But one by one we see the shootings rationalized and justified, as if each one has a reasonable explanation and there is no bigger picture.

 

[human]

Ohio police chief appalled

https://photographyisnotacrime.com/...disgust-over-terence-crutcher-shooting-death/

He said Middletown officers have removed 137 weapons from suspects this year without firing their guns.

Muterspaw said he will use the shooting in Tulsa as a training tool for his officers. He talked with detectives Tuesday and plans to discuss the shooting with his patrol officers, too.

 

[JeannaT]

It's so obvious. The numbers are all right there. But one by one we see the shootings rationalized and justified, as if each one has a reasonable explanation and there is no bigger picture.

This is an interesting video, bluesneakers, maybe you haven't seen this. It's eye-opening.

[video=youtube;yfi3Ndh3n-g]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfi3Ndh3n-g[/video]

 

[Jax49]

https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2016/09/20/tulsa-charlotte-police-shootings/

TULSA (CBSNewYork/CBS News) — Protesters gathered Tuesday night in Tulsa, Oklahoma, and Charlotte, North Carolina, following officer-involved shootings that left two black men dead in recent days.