OK - Tommy Wolf, 9, murdered, mom injured, Nichols Hills, 16 Nov 2009 *Insanity*

[mayelf]

When I am on medication for depression - I get worse. However, I never wanted to harm someone else. BUT I got to the same stage of heightened depression (or whatever it would be, lessened? whatever) without medication, and with different triggers. The most common was alcohol and the medication to reach that state, but there was also things like just life taking its toll that eventually got me into the same state.

There are millions of different patterns of how a brain works that if he did have a mental disorder, perhaps they decided it was Depression, there could have been more things going on in his brain. If he took a medication and it caused him to kill a child, he isn't a safe person. Whether he is on medication or not, I just don't see him being as a safe person.

I wonder if there are studies on whether a medication actually changes the brain pattern to create a new person? I know most people who are using medication to feel better feel like a new person. Also wouldn't he have had to just start taking the medication for the "side effect" to happen, assuming within the last month?

How could someone not be a psychotic freak of nature to kill their own baby boy. It's just so tragic.

 

[southcitymom]

I just want to say that I personally know not all child abuse is reported in poor to privileged families. One of my friends comes from a privileged family and he was beaten with coat hangers, spatulas and punched by his father, as a child, but yet it was never reported...

This man could have mental issues although clinical depression generally doesn’t lead to murder... it leads to suicide. He may just be "crazy like a fox."

I agree with you that not all abuse is reported. I guess we will learn more as this story unfolds.

But based on what I do know, I believe this man has psychological issues that led to this violence. I have no idea whether or not medication was involved.

I do not believe that he attacked his wife and son in the wee hours of the morning due to well-hidden anger/abuse issues and then tried to make it look like a mental break when he got caught.

 

[crystalgenie]

I take an SSRI and I have never felt motivated to harm anyone else.

Me, too!!!

 

[crystalgenie]

I agree with you that not all abuse is reported. I guess we will learn more as this story unfolds.

But based on what I do know, I believe this man has psychological issues that led to this violence. I have no idea whether or not medication was involved.

I do not believe that he attacked his wife and son in the wee hours of the morning due to well-hidden anger/abuse issues and then tried to make it look like a mental break when he got caught.

My main question is this, were there marital issues??? We've heard they were separated and not seperated... He wouldn't be the first man who has had a lawsuit in the last couple of years and now the wife's leaving and their idea is to kill them as oppose to pay child support or spousal support. We'll have to wait for the discovery and trial but he wouldn't have been the first to attack a wife and child in the wee hours of the morning... Remember the man that murdered his wife and children then went to the gym, called and asked the police for a welfare check.... I am just wondering whether he was hollering that the little boy was the devil before or just after the police arrived.. that's all.

It might have been a "mental break" but it might not have beeen one as well.

 

[Gray]

I agree with you that not all abuse is reported. I guess we will learn more as this story unfolds.

But based on what I do know, I believe this man has psychological issues that led to this violence. I have no idea whether or not medication was involved.

I do not believe that he attacked his wife and son in the wee hours of the morning due to well-hidden anger/abuse issues and then tried to make it look like a mental break when he got caught.

There could be various reasons why he had issues, but I know that I personally was afraid for my own safety because of some paranoia that a significant other exhibited in regards to certain things. When I told him that I felt he was being irrational, his anger turned towards me. He hadn't gotten physical with me YET, but I can see how a lot of women who aren't as OCD about things as I am would not take it as seriously as I did. I read WS too much, watch too much TruTV, and read way too much to ignore the warning signs. I read an amazing book called The Gift of Fear which taught me ways to protect myself and understand my own intuition.

I removed myself from the situation and told this person that I would not be returning until we attended counseling. My intention was not to desert him, but to get help for him and for me. I knew no other way to do that while protecting myself! I didn't even tell him where I lived for awhile in order to let things calm down... and now he is not angry at me anymore from what I can see so I feel a bit more comfortable dealing with things. But I am by nature a pretty self-controlled person... and I know that most people are not. It takes a lot to make me react. But I can see how someone who hadn't been interested in the things I am would not see the warning signs.

I really feel for Ms. Wolf. She probably had no clue that he was capable of such things. She obviously knew something was wrong, hence the separation, but she didn't realize how grave the situation actually was.

I definitely think that he had psychological issues that have never been dealt with... and they arose because he was going through an immensely stressful time in his life (i.e. getting in trouble at work and a separation from his family, including not living at home anymore). Isn't stress a trigger for mental illness? I'm not a doctor, so I don't know.

All of this is JMO.

 

[YellowDog]

I've spent a lot of time thinking about this case. One thing to consider--he was diagnosed, and treated, for major depression. In my experience, it is not that uncommon for people who are actually bi-polar to be misdiagnosed as depressed (I've previously commented on a family member with a major mental illness--this is what happened to her, and, in my opinion, years of misdiagnosis and lack of treatment/proper treatment contributed to the severity of her illness).

The problem with this is that while anti-depressants (particularly SSRI's) are often used to treat bi-polar disorder, they should be used in conjunction with mood stabilizers. If they are not, there is research to indicate that SSRI's can trigger a manic state. Some people, while in an acute manic state, can become quite psychotic.

While I'm not a psychiatrist, and of course have limited information in this particular, I would not be surprised if a misdiagnosis (and that he is later diagnosed as seriously bi-polar, or schizophrenic) comes into play here.

For a short introduction to medication issues in treatment of bi-polar disorder, see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bipolar_disorder#Medication . There's lots more out there, of course...

Bipolar is the modern day terminology for what once was referred to as a manic-depressive person.

 

[wfgodot]

Sadly, cases such as this one aren't rare. And the U.S. doesn't have a monopoly on them.

Father 'stabs son, 4, to death before attacking boy's mother and attempting to kill himself' (Southwark, SE London)

"They are just a normal family---everyone just thought they were normal."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1230518/Boy-4-stabbed-death-flat.html

 

[OneLostGrl]

Are there any lists of the millions the drugs under discussion above have helped better to function as productive members of society? Of those whose lives were saved by adequate treatment with them, so that they did not hurl themselves into the abyss? Of those who would have been endangered had those drugs not been given to others suffering from a wide range of conditions which can provoke both psychological and physical violence?

Amen!

 

[OneLostGrl]

I've spent a lot of time thinking about this case. One thing to consider--he was diagnosed, and treated, for major depression. In my experience, it is not that uncommon for people who are actually bi-polar to be misdiagnosed as depressed (I've previously commented on a family member with a major mental illness--this is what happened to her, and, in my opinion, years of misdiagnosis and lack of treatment/proper treatment contributed to the severity of her illness).

The problem with this is that while anti-depressants (particularly SSRI's) are often used to treat bi-polar disorder, they should be used in conjunction with mood stabilizers. If they are not, there is research to indicate that SSRI's can trigger a manic state. Some people, while in an acute manic state, can become quite psychotic.

While I'm not a psychiatrist, and of course have limited information in this particular, I would not be surprised if a misdiagnosis (and that he is later diagnosed as seriously bi-polar, or schizophrenic) comes into play here.

For a short introduction to medication issues in treatment of bi-polar disorder, see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bipolar_disorder#Medication . There's lots more out there, of course...

I have Bipolar disorder and I have never wanted to kill another living soul. Not while on or off of my meds... not while psychotic or in a mixed state, not while angry or lonely or while I was abusing drugs and alcohol on top of my prescription medications. While Bipolar is not a pretty disorder and we do some really stupid stuff while manic and/or off of our meds, it is not a murdering disease.

Medication saves lives.

 

[STEADFAST]

This Dr. has already made "the list". I would like to know exactly what (med for depression) he was taking. Usually on the list, the med is known & listed.

This is sorted by DATE so Dr Wolf will be at the bottom. If you spend just a couple of minutes looking at the list, you'll see this is NOT rare , imo at least.
You can also sort by drug, offense, or whatever.
Like another poster mentioned with the Olten case...I ran across this site trying to find something on Alyssa Bustamante & Prozac.
http://www.ssristories.com/index.php?sort=date

IMO....theres was too many "cases" on the list to say ... Oh, you cant blame the meds.
I dont buy it. SOMETHING is going on.

A list of murderers and people who have committed suicide and who were also on some kind of psyche meds does not in any way logically prove or even point to a correlation between the two things.

If known, someone could make a list of all murderers/suicides who ate chocolate ice cream within the week, or attended a movie, or took an aspirin.
Those would be long lists, too.

 

[freshmom]

Thank you for making this point.

 

[YellowDog]

A list of murderers and people who have committed suicide and who were also on some kind of psyche meds does not in any way logically prove or even point to a correlation between the two things.

If known, someone could make a list of all murderers/suicides who ate chocolate ice cream within the week, or attended a movie, or took an aspirin.
Those would be long lists, too.

Well, IMO, it definitely points to a possibility.

 

[STEADFAST]

Well, IMO, it definitely points to a possibility.

It certainly doesn't point to there not being a correlation. I'm just saying the list isn't evidence that they are correlated. It isn;t evidence of any relationship between the two one way or the other. It's not a matter of opinion; it's a matter of how things can be proved. I mean, think of all the variables that would need to be known, like how many murderers/suicides weren't on psyche meds, what is the probability of a given person being on psyche meds or being a murderer/suicide, what percentage of people on psyche meds don't commit murder or suicide, what other factors might the people on the list have in common . . . and on and on.
The list does prove, though, that psyche meds do not always prevent murder/suicide, because it shows that there are cases in which people who took psyche meds did commit murder or suicide or both.

 

[cynsational]

Dr. Stephen P. Wolf is charged with first-degree murder in the stabbing death of Tommy Wolf. The doctor has also been charged with assault with a deadly weapon on accusations of attacking his wife.

http://www.koco.com/news/21723258/detail.html

 

[wfgodot]

The newsok.com/Daily Oklahoman story, providing much the same info as the link above that cynsational provided to us:
Nichols Hills doctor Stephen Wolf charged in son's stabbing death

http://newsok.com/nichols-hills-doc...article/3420290?custom_click=lead_story_title

 

[Tizzle]

In the video in the link cynsational provided, Dr. Kurtz says one thing that could have caused a psychotic episode like this is if SW stopped taking his prescribed medication. I think this is a possibility.

 

[YellowDog]

It certainly doesn't point to there not being a correlation. I'm just saying the list isn't evidence that they are correlated. It isn;t evidence of any relationship between the two one way or the other. It's not a matter of opinion; it's a matter of how things can be proved. I mean, think of all the variables that would need to be known, like how many murderers/suicides weren't on psyche meds, what is the probability of a given person being on psyche meds or being a murderer/suicide, what percentage of people on psyche meds don't commit murder or suicide, what other factors might the people on the list have in common . . . and on and on.
The list does prove, though, that psyche meds do not always prevent murder/suicide, because it shows that there are cases in which people who took psyche meds did commit murder or suicide or both.

It could also depend on which medication the doctor was on and the effects it had on him. Medications can affect different people in different ways. That is why they list every known possible side effect on their warning phamplets when issuing prescriptions. No one would likely have all of the side effects, but could have several or possibly none.

 

[Texas Mist]

<snip>

BY NOLAN CLAY - Staff Writer
Published: December 3, 2009

The Nichols Hills doctor accused of fatally stabbing his son was moved to a hospital because of a medical emergency, officials said.

Stephen Paul Wolf, 51, was moved Wednesday from Oklahoma County jail to OU Medical Center in Oklahoma City because of low blood pressure, officials said.



Read more: http://newsok.com/nichols-hills-doc...on-hospitalized/article/3422243#ixzz0YehWL63v

 

[cynsational]

Dehydration, fever or too much medication or the wrong medication can cause low BP. He knows this stuff. Is he not eating? Drinking? Taking some meds?

 

[PeteyGirl]

It could also depend on which medication the doctor was on and the effects it had on him. Medications can affect different people in different ways. That is why they list every known possible side effect on their warning phamplets when issuing prescriptions. No one would likely have all of the side effects, but could have several or possibly none.

Only if you have a pre-existing belief that psych meds actually cause such behaviors would your premise make sense.

You start your line of reasoning WITH the conviction that psych meds can and do cause people to behave murderously or suicidally.

I was a psych RN for 17 years, working mostly in acute units, but also for three years in a long term unit.

In my experience, the murderousness or suicidality pre-exists the medication, whatever medication. And I am including illegal drugs in my idea here, too. PEOPLE are murderous to begin with, and I would bet my next paycheck in this man's history, with or without medications, he has revealed his murderousness in threats or casual comments or even behaviors he stopped at the last minute.