Omaha Double Murder #2

[waltzingmatilda]

Snick, or anyone familiar with the Dundee neighborhood,....How visible are the house numbers from the street? Are the lawns spacious with trees and shrubbery and the homes set back aways, which would make it difficult to see the numbers on the house? Are the numbers marked on the curbs?

I am just trying to reason why the poi would be cutting thru neighbors' yards. It is such a 'teenager thing to do'! My gut is curious if he was cutting thru the lawns to get a better view of the address numbers. Any credible hitman or assasin would have already cased the area and would have known exactly which house he was targeting. IMO

So where does that leave us? The POI didn't seem to know the area, based on the evidence we have. (The reports of starting and stopping in the vehicle...The reports of cutting through lawns.)

I think this was someone on the periferal of Tom or Shirlee's lives who, for some reason, felt a need to exact revenge on one of the victims. "They" acted hastily, there had to be clues and evidence left behind. We just don't know what it is.

Tom being 'covered in blood' is a clue.
Why would someone do such a horrific thing to a boy of Tom's age? Or to a nice lady like Shirlee? But Tom being covered in blood indicates to me that someone wanted to be sure he was dead. It sounds like overkill to me. Whoever did this is an enraged madman!!!

MOO

wm

 

[Snick1946]

First, a Happy New Year to everyone, and let's hope the new year will bring a solution to this maddening mystery.
I have visited the area a few times. House numbers are not real easy to see, even from the sidewalk. They are not painted on the curbs. I would also assume that OPD early on checked out then possibility of the man being seen being a meter reader. They don't come around in my area but do in older ones, such as Dundee.
Like YellowDog, I'd like to know how many wittnesses inputed on the description of the POI; if just one or two I'd be revisiting those people.
I keep coming back to a fact that has been commented on earlier. These were killings that apparently displayed medical skill and also apparently were carried out in a manner that so far has eluded attempts at solving the case. They took place in the home of then head of a Pathology department of a major university. Is that suggestive?
No I am not pointing fingers here. What I am saying is that maybe LE should be looking toward someone close to the Hunter family whom could have possessed medical skills needed to carry this off.

 

[waltzingmatilda]

The description(s) of the olive skinned man's behavior make me think that he was searching to be sure he found the correct house.

I think a meter reader would be wearing identifiable attire, like a uniform. The readers in my town all wear a shirt with a logo on it and carry a hand held device.

Things we know about the poi...

He was seen in the neighborhood in the silver suv starting and stopping.

He parked away from the Hunter home and cut through neighbor's yards before arriving at the Hunter's front door.

His clothing was described both as a dark suit and a dark coat in news articles.

He was carrying an over the shoulder briefcase or laptop bag.

He was not seen leaving the Hunter home to our knowledge.

Let's see if we can brainstorm some ideas and add other facts we know to this list.

First, I am entertaining the idea that poi could have left the home thru the rear. How easy would it be for him to cut thru back lawns to return to his car? Isn't there a fence around the rear of the Hunter home?

Second, I think the purpose of the dark clothing was to camoflauge any blood evidence on his person. I wonder if LE checked the drains in the home for any blood evidence. He may have had some on his hands, face, and needed to wash up a bit before leaving the scene of the crime.

Third, I think the timing of these murders was deliberate. POI enters home shortly after Tom returns from school possibly thinking he would be home alone. This person knew enough about Tom to know his schedule and that his parents were not at home but didn't know enough about him to consider that the family housekeeper would be working that day. (I am still working along the theory that Tom was the target and Shirlee was in the wrong place at the wrong time based on what little evidence we have.)

This is MOO and my thoughts for today. I wish you all a wonderful 2011! (personally, I am glad that 2010 is over.)

best regards,
wm

 

[Snick1946]

The description(s) of the olive skinned man's behavior make me think that he was searching to be sure he found the correct house.

I think a meter reader would be wearing identifiable attire, like a uniform. The readers in my town all wear a shirt with a logo on it and carry a hand held device.

Things we know about the poi...

He was seen in the neighborhood in the silver suv starting and stopping.

He parked away from the Hunter home and cut through neighbor's yards before arriving at the Hunter's front door.

His clothing was described both as a dark suit and a dark coat in news articles.

He was carrying an over the shoulder briefcase or laptop bag.

He was not seen leaving the Hunter home to our knowledge.

Let's see if we can brainstorm some ideas and add other facts we know to this list.

First, I am entertaining the idea that poi could have left the home thru the rear. How easy would it be for him to cut thru back lawns to return to his car? Isn't there a fence around the rear of the Hunter home?

Second, I think the purpose of the dark clothing was to camoflauge any blood evidence on his person. I wonder if LE checked the drains in the home for any blood evidence. He may have had some on his hands, face, and needed to wash up a bit before leaving the scene of the crime.

Third, I think the timing of these murders was deliberate. POI enters home shortly after Tom returns from school possibly thinking he would be home alone. This person knew enough about Tom to know his schedule and that his parents were not at home but didn't know enough about him to consider that the family housekeeper would be working that day. (I am still working along the theory that Tom was the target and Shirlee was in the wrong place at the wrong time based on what little evidence we have.)

This is MOO and my thoughts for today. I wish you all a wonderful 2011! (personally, I am glad that 2010 is over.)

best regards,
wm

Someone earlier pointed out that the pattern of walking across lawns is suggestive; a professional killer would not do this, it attracts attention. It is something often seen in young men, teens or a bit older. One thing puzzles me. If this were a stranger, how did he expect to be able to gain entry? Tom I am sure was not going to let a stranger in. From what I am told, Shirlee was attacked suddenly, from behind. So, she may not have even known the perp was in the house. Her son has told us she would never have let someone in, or even have gone to the door. So, how did he get in?
I think either Tom let him in because he was someone expected, or, he HAD A KEY.
Sit with that a minute; if so, how did he get one? Did he copy the key Shirlee had- if so, that takes us back to her family. Most likely unless she was the target of someone who knew her schedule and that she'd be there on an off day- this leads to someone with close ties to the Hunter family.

 

[waltzingmatilda]

Does anyone have knowledge about whether Dr's. keep their keys on their person in a clinical setting? Or would they leave them in their office? I worked for a few Dr's. back in the day and they always left their keys in their office so that their pockets didn't jingle while working. Their offices were off limits unless I was sent there to fetch something. It would have been easy for a sneaky person in the office to take the keys and have copies made before the Dr's. lunch break or quitting time, IMO.

Friends/room-mates of the older Hunter brothers? It would make sense for the older siblings to have a key to the family home.

Someone connected to Shirlee? Were her keys labeled w/names or addresses of her clients for whom she cleaned? I believe I recall mentioning somewhere in this thread that I cleaned homes for a few summers while school was not in session. I had labels with the home address taped to each key on my ring (for obvious reasons). But now, and thinking from this perspective, I realize that was probably not a very good idea but who would consider such an innocent thing as a risk to one's safety?

Tom? I feel sure he had a key to the home but that's just speculation on my part. When my son was Tom's age, he received a key to the house and rode the bus home on days when our housekeeper was there. I would arrive home an hour or so later and he had always left the front door unlocked while she was there. Could Tom have felt a false sense of security with another adult present? Did he even enter thru the front door upon returning home from school? I am also curious about Tom's after school activities/classmates/etc. How would the killer know such a personal habit like leaving the door unlocked? Was he casing the residence?

Please understand that this is all speculation on my part. I am brainstorming ideas here.

wm

 

[YellowDog]

Maybe the POI was cutting through the yards so the neighbors would think he was putting flyers on the doors or something like that.

Or maybe he was cutting through the yards so no one in the Hunter house would see him approaching up the front walk.

Maybe the Hunters didn't lock their doors when at home except at night before retiring.

 

[waltzingmatilda]

Maybe the POI was cutting through the yards so the neighbors would think he was putting flyers on the doors or something like that.

Or maybe he was cutting through the yards so no one in the Hunter house would see him approaching up the front walk.

Maybe the Hunters didn't lock their doors when at home except at night before retiring.

Hello YD. Great brianstorming! I wonder if he was seen on any other porches. He could have just simply been going door to door to see if one was unlocked. But.....there was no theft reported from the Hunter home.

If he was posing by going door to door posting flyers, he may have been checking the KEY to fit door locks.

Or....Tom may have left the door unlocked. The killer entered...was surprised by Shirlee and attacked her. Tom comes running up the stairs to check on things, leaving his video game on pause, and is also attacked. The killer could have aborted any plans of theft after the murders and wanted to get out of there asap.

Darn, I wish we knew if he brought the knives with him or if the knives were from the Hunter residence because this changes things for me. If he brought the knives, then I think it was a targeted killing. If the knives were from the Hunter residence then it seems more spur of the moment....unless the killer was familiar with the Hunter home. All I know is what I read in a MSM article stating the killer 'left knives behind'. Kind of vague. Everything is so vague about this case. I wish LE would release more information.

MOO

wm

 

[YellowDog]

But didn't one of the neighbors supposedly see someone letting him into the house that day?

 

[waltzingmatilda]

But didn't one of the neighbors supposedly see someone letting him into the house that day?

I don't recall reading anywhere that neighbors saw 'someone' specific letting him into the house. It is possible this was an assumption on the neighbors part as they saw him enter the residence. If the house numbers are not clear from the street, then the neighbors may not have had a very clear view of the front door of the Hunter residence.

I wish I still had all my bookmarks with links for you all but they were lost when my laptop crashed. I would like to get a visual of the neighborhood. Maybe I'll look back in thread one. IIRC, someone kindly posted some maps there.

The lots in Dundee appear to be spacious and the homes are large.
Not faulting the neighbors who were aware enough to pay attention to the olive skinned man, I am questioning whether they could tell if someone actually opened the door from the inside of if the man entered of his own volition. There are instruments one can buy to 'bump a lock' but I don't recall reading anything about forced entry. So, that leaves us with an unlocked door or the perp had a key or someone inside let him in. (which Shirlee wouldn't do according to her son, and I agree having cleaned houses in the past myself)

MOO

wm

 

[waltzingmatilda]

It is interesting to go back and read the first thread. Post #212 by proudmama at this link intrigues me......

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67963&page=9

wm

 

[Snick1946]

It is interesting to go back and read the first thread. Post #212 by proudmama at this link intrigues me......

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67963&page=9

wm

I had some difficulty with the link so here is what I think was the part you felt important: (quoted an unnamed Omaha official who replied to a SWS member who expressed bewilderment as to why AMW was not utilized)

'The Police have an ongoing investigation in this case. I am not privy to the exact Police details, as to what/how they proceed ( nor do Councilmembers or Mayor) with the crime , this is strictly confidential and Police Investigator information only. However, based on this conversation with the Chief, he has indicated it is not in the best interests of solving this crime to have it aired in the public. If we truly want this crime solved, we need to trust the professionals who work this stuff and are highly trained. (( You should know the OPD has an above norm grade for solving such crimes, and this is according to the National Accreditation agency that rates such things- however, having said that, not all crimes are solved and some are far more difficult that others.))

The Police, as well as the Councilmembers really appreciate the pain this has left the families and the community, and you should be assured the Dept is working very hard on the issue. At this time, there are some leads that makes them believe it is not at all helpful to have it aired openly. This may change, but for now, that is the answer. , Ch of Staff, City Council.'

This was dated in mid 2009.

Does anyone blame some of us who smell a coverup? As in, they've known for at least two years pretty much what happened and don't want to risk exposing some institutions or indviduals?

These families need to raise hell. Enough is enough!

 

[omaha]

I had some difficulty with the link so here is what I think was the part you felt important: (quoted an unnamed Omaha official who replied to a SWS member who expressed bewilderment as to why AMW was not utilized)

'The Police have an ongoing investigation in this case. I am not privy to the exact Police details, as to what/how they proceed ( nor do Councilmembers or Mayor) with the crime , this is strictly confidential and Police Investigator information only. However, based on this conversation with the Chief, he has indicated it is not in the best interests of solving this crime to have it aired in the public. If we truly want this crime solved, we need to trust the professionals who work this stuff and are highly trained. (( You should know the OPD has an above norm grade for solving such crimes, and this is according to the National Accreditation agency that rates such things- however, having said that, not all crimes are solved and some are far more difficult that others.))

The Police, as well as the Councilmembers really appreciate the pain this has left the families and the community, and you should be assured the Dept is working very hard on the issue. At this time, there are some leads that makes them believe it is not at all helpful to have it aired openly. This may change, but for now, that is the answer. , Ch of Staff, City Council.'

This was dated in mid 2009.

Does anyone blame some of us who smell a coverup? As in, they've known for at least two years pretty much what happened and don't want to risk exposing some institutions or indviduals?

These families need to raise hell. Enough is enough!

I agree with Snick. Even if there was something to that, I would only have supported that 3 months after, maybe 6 ... hell, even a year. But three years? Bull***** (pardon my french).

I'm starting to think they have nothing and blew it from the beginning. I think they're hoping they get lucky and they get a tip from someone. Hopefully they have some way of confirming such a tip.

 

[waltzingmatilda]

Omaha, I agree with both you and snick. BTW, thanks snick for copying and pasting the post.

That response incensed me and I don't live in Omaha or know anyone involved in this case. The tone of the response was condescending, IMO.

I am approaching a serious subject here but bear with me, please. In many cases, affluent families are extended more courtesy than us regular Joe's in a murder investigation. The delay results in lost evidence which can never be retrieved. (thinking of the Jon Benet Ramsey case here which I have researched a bit, and also August Busch, IV)

I truly believe that whoever did this was someone on the perimeter of the Hunter family. Probably someone they wouldn't think could do such a thing. Just one year ago (approx) Lt. Kangar stated OPD is focusing on Hunter computer forensics. WTH? that is a long time to wait before considering the possibility that the killer could be someone connected to the family and looking for computer forensics. Heck, I go through two laptops a year!

Come On OPD! Get with it!!!

MOO

wm

 

[YellowDog]

I think it's long past time for OPD to release a few clues to the public on this case. They sure aren't getting anywhere with it. One or two little clues might just jog someone's memory but the colder this case gets, the less likely that is to happen.

They've never even said whether or not the knives came from the house or were brought in by the killer. They've never said how many times each victim was stabbed and where the wounds were. They've never revealed anything they gleaned from interviewing the neighbors except what little was reported the very first few days after the murders.

Any chance of a new Police Chief in the near future?

 

[Snick1946]

I think it's long past time for OPD to release a few clues to the public on this case. They sure aren't getting anywhere with it. One or two little clues might just jog someone's memory but the colder this case gets, the less likely that is to happen.

They've never even said whether or not the knives came from the house or were brought in by the killer. They've never said how many times each victim was stabbed and where the wounds were. They've never revealed anything they gleaned from interviewing the neighbors except what little was reported the very first few days after the murders.

Any chance of a new Police Chief in the near future?

Alex Hayes is police chief and he is an improvement over chief Busse who preceeded him. He is an African-American and is not part of the good old boy network. I think it was Busse who nixed cooperation with AMW; IMO he was looking for his next job and didnt want any bad publicity for OPD under his watch.
The more I read the reply the other WS member got from the Mayor's office the more incensed I get. There is NO civillian oversight of most OPD actions.
I have been thinking about writing chief Hayes about this case. Right now isn't a good time for it, with the shootings at Millard South; also we have a recall election for the mayor set for 1-25 and untilm then the city is going to be in upheaval. Downside is that I would risk revealing my identity to OPD, I wouldnt mention the WS discussion but I think they'd still make the connection. Writing anyone else in city government is a waste of effort. The reply our other member got is typical of the 'we must support our brave police' (and never question what they do) sort of response I have received.
There may be some things going on that might force OPD on some of these issues but not for awhile.

 

[waltzingmatilda]

Alex Hayes is police chief and he is an improvement over chief Busse who preceeded him. He is an African-American and is not part of the good old boy network. I think it was Busse who nixed cooperation with AMW; IMO he was looking for his next job and didnt want any bad publicity for OPD under his watch.
The more I read the reply the other WS member got from the Mayor's office the more incensed I get. There is NO civillian oversight of most OPD actions.
I have been thinking about writing chief Hayes about this case. Right now isn't a good time for it, with the shootings at Millard South; also we have a recall election for the mayor set for 1-25 and untilm then the city is going to be in upheaval. Downside is that I would risk revealing my identity to OPD, I wouldnt mention the WS discussion but I think they'd still make the connection. Writing anyone else in city government is a waste of effort. The reply our other member got is typical of the 'we must support our brave police' (and never question what they do) sort of response I have received.
There may be some things going on that might force OPD on some of these issues but not for awhile.

It sounds to me like politicking is interfering with business as ususal in the local government and agencies there in Omaha.

If I were a resident of Omaha, I would be looking up some public records for elected officials....campaign contributions, etc. Unfortunately, my knowledge is limited to my home state and county.

Snick, thanks for sharing your perspective as a local.

wm

 

[YellowDog]

One thing I found strange early on in this case was that both funerals were held the same day. It seems like each family would have wanted to support the other by attending their respective loved one's funeral. Why did they have them at conflicting times I wonder?

 

[Snick1946]

One thing I found strange early on in this case was that both funerals were held the same day. It seems like each family would have wanted to support the other by attending their respective loved one's funeral. Why did they have them at conflicting times I wonder?

Mention has been made of the 'Solve the Thomas Hunter Murder' website, apparently this was put up by the Hunter family. This issue is addressed as follows there:

'Families Make Victims' Funeral Arrangements The families’ funerals were on the same day due to the availability of churches during the religious holidays'

One thing wrong with this; Shirlee's funeral was held in the chapel of a funeral home. Funeral services are never scheduled far in advance and I cannot think of any seasonal religous services that would be held in a mortuary.

I think there was and remains to be a lot of ill feeling between the two families. Shirlee's feels the Hunters are hiding something, Tom's family may blame her for possibly letting someone into the house or being careless, etc. The Hunter family did express condolences to Shirlee's family in a public statement. I am open to correction on this but I am told that The Shermans never got any card, note or call from Dr or Mrs Hunter. This aspect has always troubled me. It suggests one of the parties has some knowledge of the facts not open to the rest of us.

 

[YellowDog]

What religious holiday would that be? I can't think of one that falls around March 13th.

Mention has been made of the 'Solve the Thomas Hunter Murder' website, apparently this was put up by the Hunter family. This issue is addressed as follows there:

'Families Make Victims' Funeral Arrangements The families’ funerals were on the same day due to the availability of churches during the religious holidays'

One thing wrong with this; Shirlee's funeral was held in the chapel of a funeral home. Funeral services are never scheduled far in advance and I cannot think of any seasonal religous services that would be held in a mortuary.

I think there was and remains to be a lot of ill feeling between the two families. Shirlee's feels the Hunters are hiding something, Tom's family may blame her for possibly letting someone into the house or being careless, etc. The Hunter family did express condolences to Shirlee's family in a public statement. I am open to correction on this but I am told that The Shermans never got any card, note or call from Dr or Mrs Hunter. This aspect has always troubled me. It suggests one of the parties has some knowledge of the facts not open to the rest of us.

 

[omaha]

What religious holiday would that be? I can't think of one that falls around March 13th.

I know it isn't consistent every year, but could it have been Palm Sunday and Easter related events? Is there a way to see holidays from past years?