Omaha Double Murder #2

[YellowDog]

Hi Omaha:
The murder was on March 13, 2008, Thursday. Good Friday was on March 21, 8 days later, and Easter was on March 23. Funerals are seldom held on Sunday though. I doubt if they waited 8 days to have the funeral.

 

[omaha]

Hi Omaha:
The murder was on March 13, 2008, Thursday. Good Friday was on March 21, 8 days later, and Easter was on March 23. Funerals are seldom held on Sunday though. I doubt if they waited 8 days to have the funeral.

Good to know. How long does it usually take to get a body released in these kinds of investigations? Is it immediate?

I'm not familiar with religious holidays, anyone else think of anything it could have been?

 

[Snick1946]

Good to know. How long does it usually take to get a body released in these kinds of investigations? Is it immediate?

I'm not familiar with religious holidays, anyone else think of anything it could have been?

Funerals were both held at 11AM on Wednesday March 19. Assumed what they referred to was impending Easter holidays. For a high profile case like this with all the rumors etc going round at the time, it seemed to me that the bodies were processed rather quickly. But I don't know.

 

[waltzingmatilda]

So both funerals were held on Ash Wednesday. I can understand the church's concern over scheduling because events are held for AW, Maundy Thursday and Good Friday in Christian congregations.

However, I do not understand why this would be an issue for the funeral home where Shirlee's service was held. Did it take that many days to process and release the bodies to the families that it caused a rush to complete funeral arrangements before Easter?

I also find it a bit odd that personal condolences were not extended to the Sherman family by the Hunters. The murders did occur inside their home, after all. I haven't heard if condolences from the Sherman family were extended to the Hunter's. Perhaps that is a question that Shirlee's son can clear up if he joins us again.

I am thinking about investigating the FOIA procedures for requesting info for this case. Do we know if there was a search warrant for the computer forensics that Det. Kangar mentioned in last years update?

I don't have knowledge but know some sleuths who have requested info thru FOIA and feel they would be happy to guide and advise me. Here are some recent examples.....

*A news outlet in Hailey Dunn's case used FOIA and received documents of the search warrants.....the LE named a POI in the case after the documents became public.
*A WS friend used FOIA for documents on a cold case from the FBI and received them. Some stuff was blacked out though...don't know why.
*A fellow sleuth from a case I follow in SC requested info on the case from SLED thru FOIA. Instead of sending him the info, LE came forward with the information in a news conference.

Perhaps it might put some pressure on OPD. What are your collective thoughts on this idea?

All MOO.

wm

 

[Snick1946]

So both funerals were held on Ash Wednesday. I can understand the church's concern over scheduling because events are held for AW, Maundy Thursday and Good Friday in Christian congregations.

However, I do not understand why this would be an issue for the funeral home where Shirlee's service was held. Did it take that many days to process and release the bodies to the families that it caused a rush to complete funeral arrangements before Easter?

I also find it a bit odd that personal condolences were not extended to the Sherman family by the Hunters. The murders did occur inside their home, after all. I haven't heard if condolences from the Sherman family were extended to the Hunter's. Perhaps that is a question that Shirlee's son can clear up if he joins us again.

thinking about investigating the FOIA procedures for requesting info for this case. Do we know if there was a search warrant for the computer forensics that Det. Kangar mentioned in last years update?

I don't have knowledge but know some sleuths who have requested info thru FOIA and feel they would be happy to guide and advise me. Here are some recent examples.....

*A news outlet in Hailey Dunn's case used FOIA and received documents of the search warrants.....the LE named a POI in the case after the documents became public.
*A WS friend used FOIA for documents on a cold case from the FBI and received them. Some stuff was blacked out though...don't know why.
*A fellow sleuth from a case I follow in SC requested info on the case from SLED thru FOIA. Instead of sending him the info, LE came forward with the information in a news conference.

Perhaps it might put some pressure on OPD. What are your collective thoughts on this idea?

All MOO.

wm

WM, can a private person file such a request? Is there some statute limiting availability of information on an open murder case?
Also could someone file a request to see if OPD ever actually requested such information?

 

[omaha]

WM, can a private person file such a request? Is there some statute limiting availability of information on an open murder case?
Also could someone file a request to see if OPD ever actually requested such information?

I would love to find this out. My guess is that they couldn't release anything if the investigation is "active". Perhaps contact the Attorney General's office to ask? I bet even if you paid the fee to file, they'd likely only return a list of people whom have requested, if any. Anyone know someone who would know? Is there a reporter at the World Herald who would know?

 

[waltzingmatilda]

WM, can a private person file such a request? Is there some statute limiting availability of information on an open murder case?
Also could someone file a request to see if OPD ever actually requested such information?

Snick, I do know private citizens can file such a request as I know 2 sleuths who have done so. One received the info requested and the other one didn't receive info but the LE released the info he requested to the public instead.

The first case I mentioned is an old cold case but is still open and the FBI sent the documents requested. (our fellow sleuth and friend, Bern, filed this one)

The 2nd case referenced was for infomation on evidence found (a pair of sunglasses) in the Drexel case in SC. It was reported that the glasses were sent to the state crime lab......and then nothing for months. It was only after fellow sleuth (mlatta) sent the FOIA request that LE made the info public.

I am just not sure of the requirements for requesting such info as I have never done such a thing so would need to study up a bit. I do know if there were any search warrants that are not sealed that we can request the info. The media in the Hailey Dunn case made a FOIA request for recent search warrants and the info within was eye opening! This is why I asked if any search warrants for evidence were issued in the Hunter/Sherman case. I would think that if computers were taken for forensics that a search warrant was issued, unless they were given to LE by the family voluntarily, then there would be no such warrants.

I don't mean to sound like a rebel rouser, but sometimes it helps to rattle the cage a bit to get a response, so to speak.

MOO

wm

ETA I also know that if the autopsy reports are not sealed that they can be obtained thru FOIA, as far as I know. The AR's in the case of the Ok girls double murder were chock full of info for amateur profiling. We were able to deduce which girl we thought was the target. She was shot in the face and the genitals.... the other girl seemed to be shot randomly from a further distance, FWIW.

 

[Snick1946]

I intend to persue the FOIA discussion but meantime wanted to post a summary of what the FBI is alleged to have done. Source on this is the 'Solve the Thomas Hunter' site:

•FBI handled computer forensics.
•FBI handled lie-detector, polygraph tests on dozens of people involved in the case.
•FBI handled the phone records of all involved.
•FBI handled killer profiling.

Bear in mind this is not confirmed but it does sound like the FBI gave this case a going over. It seems unusual that they apparently came up empty after all this. Or is this that unusual...

 

[waltzingmatilda]

They did give it a going over. I betcha there are clues in this evidence somewhere but they just don't know it yet. I am disappointed there is no mention of taking in Tom's video game to be checked out. If Tom was playing with someone online where players are able to converse thru headsets, what reason did Tom give for pausing the game? Was it paused in the middle of the game?

IDK why I keep going back to that darn video game.

MOO

wm

 

[Snick1946]

They did give it a going over. I betcha there are clues in this evidence somewhere but they just don't know it yet. I am disappointed there is no mention of taking in Tom's video game to be checked out. If Tom was playing with someone online where players are able to converse thru headsets, what reason did Tom give for pausing the game? Was it paused in the middle of the game?

IDK why I keep going back to that darn video game.

MOO

wm

IDK either, but so do I.

I wish we knew what game he was playing. I understand a lot of kids today are into Halo- I doubt that was available on a game console format in 3-08. He was apparently playing an X Box.

I sometimes think that darn game may be the key to unlock this mystery. I also think OPD and possibly the FBI never mined that for what it was worth. About six months after the crime I passed a tip onto OPD suggesting they access his Xbox to at least see if they could tell WHEN he paused the game. If nothing else that could pinpoint the time he was interrupted. As almost always I got no response.

It has been suggested that these murders were some sort of role-playing acting out of some scene in a fantasy game. I question if LE ever skimmed even the surface of all of this.

 

[waltzingmatilda]

IDK either, but so do I.

I wish we knew what game he was playing. I understand a lot of kids today are into Halo- I doubt that was available on a game console format in 3-08. He was apparently playing an X Box.

I sometimes think that darn game may be the key to unlock this mystery. I also think OPD and possibly the FBI never mined that for what it was worth. About six months after the crime I passed a tip onto OPD suggesting they access his Xbox to at least see if they could tell WHEN he paused the game. If nothing else that could pinpoint the time he was interrupted. As almost always I got no response.

It has been suggested that these murders were some sort of role-playing acting out of some scene in a fantasy game. I question if LE ever skimmed even the surface of all of this.

~above respectfully BBM~

I think so too snick! I had no idea of the interactive capabilities of gaming systems til last year when I observed SIL playing and talking on those headphones. Some of these games have modums and wireless capabilities from what I understand. Like a computer, players' records are stored in the device.

If LE didn't take it in for forensics in the beginning, I feel it was out of ignorance of these games' capabilities and never occured to them that helpful info could be stored on there. (just as I was ignorant about it)

Still, it seems to me that would be the most important piece of evidence since it was possibly the last thing Tom was doing before he was killed. Shirlee and Tom were the last to see each other in the real world and they are both deceased. I view the last person to interact with Tom in the gaming world as the last person to 'see' him.

So much time has now passed that there's no telling where that system is now if LE doesn't have it. It could have been passed along to one of the H brother's or simply tossed as the technology changes rapidly. It wouldn't be as desirable in 2011 as it was in 2008, IYKWIM.

There is a good chance that valuable evidence has been lost if LE didn't retrieve it in the beginning of the investigation. MOO

wm

 

[YellowDog]

Many people do not turn their computers off these days. Tom could have even put the computer on "pause" the night before. It would be helpful to know when he did "pause" it.

 

[YellowDog]

Does anyone recall how much time elapsed from the time Tom got home from school until the time the stranger was reported entering the house? Did he even have time to go into the basement and play a game?

 

[waltzingmatilda]

Many people do not turn their computers off these days. Tom could have even put the computer on "pause" the night before. It would be helpful to know when he did "pause" it.

This is true YellowDog. It is unclear to me whether Tom was playing on a computer or a gaming system.

I will say this, however. My son came home from middle school every day and played on his gaming system as he was allowed an hour each day to 'wind down' before eating a snack and beginning his homework. He could leave his game paused even when we switched to tv mode when dad came home.

I wish we knew where Tom's bedroom is located in the home. Is it in the basement?

As far as the time difference form when Tom arrived home from school and the POI arrived, I'll go back to thread one and see if I can find one of the early articles to clarify.

All MOO

wm

 

[YellowDog]

I believe the news reported Tom got home shortly after 3:00 PM and the stranger was seen in the neighborhood around 3:20. Not much time between the two being seen. I wonder if the killer could have seen Tom get on the school bus and followed the bus to where he got off. He could have then sat in his car giving Tom time to go inside and get settled in before he walked up to the door. If this is what happened, I'd say the killer was after Tom, but did not know where he lived.

 

[waltzingmatilda]

I believe the news reported Tom got home shortly after 3:00 PM and the stranger was seen in the neighborhood around 3:20. Not much time between the two being seen. I wonder if the killer could have seen Tom get on the school bus and followed the bus to where he got off. He could have then sat in his car giving Tom time to go inside and get settled in before he walked up to the door. If this is what happened, I'd say the killer was after Tom, but did not know where he lived.

You are right once again YD!

According to True Crime Diary, Tom was seen arriving home around 3 pm and the man in the CRV was seen stopping and starting around 3:20.

http://www.truecrimediary.com/index.cfm?page=cases&id=51

and from this article.....

http://www.wowt.com/home/headlines/17003921.html

Not even the race and age of the person of interest are clear. Neighbors offered varying descriptions.

Even if Tom came straight inside and began eating his after school snack before resuming the play from the previous evening, I'd still like to know if LE checked out the other gamers in the virtual world who played with Tom.

Sleuths collected a wealth of information in the Zahra Baker case from sleuthing the gaming sites that her Dad and faux step mom played. (sm and dad met playing this game and sm went to Australia and married Z's dad while married to another man, she's been charged with bigamy) One of our very own sleuths had gamed on the same site and interacted with the Bakers and contacted Hickory Police with info. The popo was very grateful and our sleuth was mentioned in search warrents which were released.

I just wish OPD would throw us a new tidbit to sleuth because we might actually be helpful in researching facts.

Where has that (nice looking:innocent Lt. Kangar been lately?

MOO

wm

 

[YellowDog]

You know the more I think about it, the more plausible it sounds. If the killer had it in for one of the parents for some reason, didn't even know Tom, but wanted revenge, he could have had someone point Tom out to him, watched Tom leave school and get on the bus, follow the bus to where Tom got off, waited for him to enter the house so he'd know where he lived, gone to the house to kill the boy not knowing their would be a housekeeper there and been forced to kill the housekeeper to eliminate any witnesses.

This is really the only scenario I've been able to come up with that sounds plausible.

I wish we knew how much of a struggle there was in the house that day. If the guy in the SUV was the killer, he had to act extremely fast to enter the house and kill two people in such a short period of time.

It had to have been a revenge killing of some kind. There was no robbery.

 

[waltzingmatilda]

YD, I agree with you that Tom was probably the target and the killer didn't know Shirlee was at the residence. Therefore, she was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I respectfullly disagree regarding the killer committing the murders in a short period of time. The POI arrived at approx. 3:20 pm. Dr. Bill Hunter arrived home in the 5 o' clock hour. (sorry I can't remember the exact time but will search for a link)

There have been no official reports of witnesses' accounts of the man leaving the Hunter residence. Pure speculation on my part but the killer could have been in the H's home for over an hour before Dr Hunter returned home from work, based on the times we have. (which isn't much)

WHY didn't the neighbors see the POI leave the residence? This puzzles me.

I do agree this was a revenge killing!

Anyway, MOO for today.

wm

 

[YellowDog]

It is strange that whoever saw the stranger and the SUV didn't bother to keep an eye on things until the car was gone. We don't even know if there was a huge struggle in the house of if both victims were caught off guard and killer. We don't know whether either of them was bound or not.

 

[waltzingmatilda]

NE Attorney General site re FOIA.....

http://www.ago.ne.gov/public/publicrecords.htm

Any assistance/ advice/ suggestions are greatly appreciated. Law jargon is not my forte so I am open to everybody's thoughts.

Here's a few links regarding a case in OK as an example.....

"To say that it might interfere with the prosecution, I know, sounds good when you say it to the public," Senat said. "But on the flip side, it could also help us know that they're not doing their job."

http://www.koco.com/news/26003147/detail.html

"We can't. We told them, 'Legally, we can't,'" Prater said. "The medical examiners' reports are public information when they're put in a final form. Those we disagree with the attorney general's opinion, they're public documents."

http://www.koco.com/news/25912631/detail.html

It has been almost 3 years since Tom and Shirlee were murdered so I would think the ME reports for these murders would be 'in final form' by now.

God bless the Hunter and Sherman families. It must be HE!! for them to have no answers after all this time. EVery day I think of young Thomas, the 'baby' of the Hunters' 4 boys and I think of my own son and his trials and tribulations at that age...

And of Shirlee, the grandma and matriarch of the Sherman family who worked hard at an honest living by cleaning homes, I identify with her as I cleaned homes during summer break when I wasn't teaching.

IDK why, but I just can't give up on this case ever being solved.

MOO

wm